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You were completely dismissive of my historical points in the other thread, but if it suits your politics, you'll pay attention to history.
"Remember that when we get hit by the next generation of fanatics inspired by Gitmo and Abu Gharaib"
ah, come on, RG. Be kind to the senile old fart. It's almost cruel to respond to him, he's such a turkey of a target.
The Bush lovers sucking Georgie's and bashing Clinton.
The Clinton lovers sucking Billy's and bashing Bush.
What's new?
Blame their terroristic actions on whatever suits your politics, but the impetus for whatever hit we might take is grounded in the philosophy of fanatical Islam. Short of a massive Western conversion to Islam, future hits are inevitable.
Blind hatred ingrained in their black souls is their inspiration.
These arguments do little to help your case. Jochejam's response points that out well.
It seems the left/Democrats can't handle momentum. As they start to gain some heading into the elections, they become emboldened. Their voices become more, not less, shrill. Their accusation's become more and more extreme, until they are left claiming things like you just did. The mainstream, which was moving toward them, all of a sudden pauses and says, "Well that's a bunch of B.S. - I don't believe THAT"- - and BOOM, all of a sudden voting for a democrat is tantamount to extremism, and becomes very distastefull.
Do you see the White House/Rove running around yelling about the couple of meaningless signs of WMD they have found in Iraq? Although "technically" accurate - it would be silly and would be seen for the "extreme" position it is. The public would turn away.
Instead, they are simply slowly throwing ideas, and concepts out there; reminding people of some things, putting new stuff into the mix. Bush's numbers are rising, the Senate is looking pretty safe, and the Republicans are just now loosing attacks on dems in close house races. Two months ago ain't no way I'd have bet that the Republicans would hold on to EITHER house in November; now I'd give even money that they'll hold both.
It's not about the religion specifically. Even were we to convert, en masse, to Islam we would still be a target because of our simple power and the naked exercise of that power.
I'm really suprised so few people get it. This has nothing to do with Clinton's legacy or with what he did or didn't do while in office and everything to do with trying to stir the emotions of Democrats and to show them how to fight with the Republicans the way Republicans have been taking it to the Democrats.
Listen to what Paul Begala said. Listen to what Hillary Clinton said. Bill Clinton went on a right wing news network and did his best to show Democrats that at some point you better get in their face and call them out with some passion and determination if you ever plan on getting your voices heard.
6 years out of office and Bill Clinton is still by far - for better or for worse - the best leader the Democrats have and this is him leading.
I don't find it "shrill" to point out the obvious reality that our current administration can't find it's ass with both hands when it comes to effectivly fighting those who would do us harm.
It is simply my duty to make as effective a case for it as possible. It does irk me that 6 years into the Bush administration, Bush supporters will not take responsibility for his mistakes.
I will readily grant that Rove et al. always seem to be one step ahead in the political dogfight. It sucks that their skill and the Dems relative lack of it, causes my country such harm.
My feelings exactly. I think a lot of progressives are in the same mood.
I'll be quite honest, I think this time around the American public is going to be far more interested in listening to Bill's side of the story as opposed to Bush and companys. As much as the local conservatives hate to admit it, the country doesn't like whats going on in Iraq and thats the main subject on anyone's mind right now. No amount of talk about gay marriage or any other side issues is going to move that subject from the forefront.
I don't see what the current administration can point to. The American public has trusted them time and time again and they've been dissapointed time and time again. We've regressed so much as far as foriegn relations go over the past 4 years, and its so damn obvious to almost everyone out there that we're slamming our collecive head as a nation against a wall.
How many lives do Bush and the Republican's have? I'm no real fan of the Democrats by any stretch of the imagination, but my disdain for what the current Republican congress and administration have done leaves me no chioce but to believe that they are far worse. I think the majority of America feels that exact same way.
I think you are wrong. This is not socio-economic. This is religious: I believe the Jihadists.
You quote wasn't shrill; I was actually talking about alot of the stuff I'm seeing/hearing from the left right now. Calling for Bush's arrest, calling him a religious extremist - basically making him the devil - ciding with Chavez. These views used to kind of be in the closet, spouted by the Boutons of the world. But now emboldened I have begun to see them get play from more mainstream sources. Those views DON"T help the Democrats. They make Bush a sympathetic figure (especially to people who voted for him - twice).
As much as the Democrats are CONVINCED the public has completely turned against Bush - dude, ultimately has won two presidential elections. That fact seems to get lost when the feeding frenzy gets going.
I think it is a bit of both. To ignore one factor or the other is to treat 1/2 the disease.
Many facts seems to get lost to the boutons of the world.
There is actaully some evidence to support this. I heard about a poll the other day that said that 2/3 of our people don't really trust the government to do what it is supposed to do: govern.
I happen to agree. Whatever faults the Dems have, the GOP sucks even worse at running the government.
"Those views DON"T help the Democrats"
The Dems are getting all the help they need directly the dubya and the blatant, numerous across-the-board failures of his 6 years in office, including his failure to top the WTC attack.
Support for the Iraq war is down 50%, and I bet a large portion of that is not primarily, explicitly pro-dubya, but pro-troops, and pro-USA-not-lose.
right-wing nut jobs can spout all they want against Dem candidates and it help the Repugs
but what you call left-wing nut jobs can spout all they want against dubya and it hurts the Dems.
It's always a one-way street with you right-wing mother ers. Right-wingers can be as extreme as and that's wonderful, but what you call extreme left wing (aka any opposition from the left) is not ok.
Bush did indeed win (or not depending on who you ask
While I can't say what the exact percentage is, if something like 1% of the electorate had voted the other way, we would be having a very different conversation.
That slim margin of victory is not quite a ringing endorsement.
And when the Democrats had controlled Congress for 40 years? Those poll numbers have ALWAYS looked like that.
A lot of people need to realize what wins mid term elections in order to understand what the Democrats are doing as well. Midterms are much more about rallying your base and having them show up. It isn't a wide election where you appeal to the center because the turnout will be much less than a general election.
This is 1994 all over again except this time it is the Republicans who are on the other end of the disdain.
Honestly, I half-heartedly believe he should be in jail as well for sheer negligence. I think his lack of engagement with this job has literally cost US servicemembers' lives, and that makes me angrier than words can express.
But I don't call for such a thing because I know it is not practical, nor helpful.
Actually no.
In the middle sixties, before Vietnam, the numbers were actually reversed.
A majority trusted the government to do the right thing.
Remember the WW2 generation saw the tremendous good that our government did during WW2 and afterwards (marshal plan etc) and retained that optimism. The specter of Vietnam haunts their children, however.
Last edited by RandomGuy; 09-27-2006 at 09:13 AM. Reason: added content for clarification
Nor did I claim it was. My point was there are as many people who voted for him as voted against him. Momentum seems to make Democrats forget this; thinking EVERYBODY hates him now, except for extreme repug sheeple and christian fascists.
There are many Americans who don't hate Bush, or believe he is the devil, who don't fit that description.
My point is that not fully understanding that could very well cost the Democrats the House and Senate this November.
I would say that failed big government en lement plans, pork, and out of control spending on EVERYTHING (including defense), requiring increased taxation AND a massive debt, has had a much more direct effect on people's distrust and distaste for government.
Amen to that. You pegged this 100% right.
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