Parker: You're not elite, pass the ball

[cherylsteele]

Manu is the reason we lost last year. Take him out of the equation and the spurs have another ring.

Take him out of the equation and we don't win in 2005...and probably 2003.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I see your point and I mostly agree. But I'm afraid there's people out there who just hate the guy....

Ahh, yeah. I think they're deluded. I never heard of "hating" a player on your own team, unless it was the Lakers--or if someone's a cancer and contributing to a loss. Tony Parker is a good team guy and only follows Pop's orders, he has questionable leadership skills, but that's Horry, Finley, and Timmy's job currently. I think criticism was welcome in the past, because he just kind of lacked that maturity--and being around Tim and Spurs veterans who bring so much expectation, and the emergence of Manu in 2005--there's been this unfortunate precedent against Tony since 2003, where any mental mistake is scrutinized while Tim and Manu get off the hook.

As for those quotes, Heh, I've only been posting earlier this year, but I think only on here have I realized that there's actual "contempt" for our own players. I mean, as a fan, it's ok, to question the play of some players like Beno, or a hesitance on Barry's part throughout the season. Or at times to call even our favorite players a bum in the heat of the moment. (Like Tim )Let's not be blind homers--but to root against players? and wait for them to fail to gloat? It's a weird, new concept to me. This board has mental issues!

[BigVee]

Most fans expect perfection which is unrealistic. They want Manu to bring the team back from a huge deficit by himself, expend all the energy and then be perfect in the last 10 seconds. Or, they want Tony to make all the spectacular moves to the basket, but never screw up while doing what most players can't do. If Tony is given more "clutch time" opportunities, he will learn what Manu and Tim already know. The more chances you have to be clutch, the more chances you have to fail. If the effort is there, they cannot do more.

[pppp]

Ahh, yeah. I think they're deluded. I never heard of "hating" a player on your own team, unless it was the Lakers--or if someone's a cancer and contributing to a loss. Tony Parker is a good team guy and only follows Pop's orders, he has questionable leadership skills, but that's Horry, Finley, and Timmy's job currently. I think criticism was welcome in the past, because he just kind of lacked that maturity--and being around Tim and Spurs veterans who bring so much expectation, and the emergence of Manu in 2005--there's been this unfortunate precedent against Tony since 2003, where any mental mistake is scrutinized while Tim and Manu get off the hook.

As for those quotes, Heh, I've only been posting earlier this year, but I think only on here have I realized that there's actual "contempt" for our own players. I mean, as a fan, it's ok, to question the play of some players like Beno, or a hesitance on Barry's part throughout the season. Or at times to call even our favorite players a bum in the heat of the moment. (Like Tim )Let's not be blind homers--but to root against players? and wait for them to fail to gloat? It's a weird, new concept to me. This board has mental issues!

[pichichi63]

shame on you to always criticize tony parker!!!! if the spurs win and tony make a big game, it's thanks to defense and bench production! If the spurs lose it's because of tony who dont' pass the ball at Maaaaannnnuuuuuuuu!!!!!

You don't have objective viewpoint!!!!!!

Tony Parker
06-07 SAS 8 8 35.5 .522 .625 .733 0.4 2.8 3.1 5.0 1.0 0.1 2.38 1.60 22.3

Manu Ginobili
06-07 SAS 8 8 32.0 .385 .313 .829 1.0 4.6 5.6 4.0 0.9 0.5 2.13 2.30 13.6

[George Gervin's Afro]

Love all of the holier than thou rhetoric but is it to much to ask for that our point guard make better decisions late in the game? Is it to much to ask for that if he cannot contribute offensively he find another way to help the team? I guess it's the 'haters' like me that expect 'perfection' but in all honesty when a pattern emerges can we at least debate it without the condescencion? The last time I checked we can all disgree and be correct at the same time.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Most fans expect perfection which is unrealistic. They want Manu to bring the team back from a huge deficit by himself, expend all the energy and then be perfect in the last 10 seconds. Or, they want Tony to make all the spectacular moves to the basket, but never screw up while doing what most players can't do. If Tony is given more "clutch time" opportunities, he will learn what Manu and Tim already know. The more chances you have to be clutch, the more chances you have to fail. If the effort is there, they cannot do more.

Perfection? No better decision making? You bet. TP has actually improved in his decision making from last year however his penchant for turning the ball over late in the game is still there.. No hating on TP but some of us are concerned

[pichichi63]

Remenber game 7 of the 2006 Playoffs???

Who sucked??? Tony or Maaannnnnnnnnuuuuuuuuuu???????

[stéphane]

Remenber game 7 of the 2006 Playoffs???

Who sucked??? Tony or Maaannnnnnnnnuuuuuuuuuu???????

pichichi you scored too many goals with your head... as a result you're as smart as pig...
your statements aren't any better than tp's haters ones...
go to bed

[pppp]

Perfection? No better decision making? You bet. TP has actually improved in his decision making from last year however his penchant for turning the ball over late in the game is still there.. No hating on TP but some of us are concerned

It's still early in the season so it's a little too early to conclude anything. let's wait & see. So far TP has been (way) more an asset than a liability.

However, criticism for his TOs late in the 4th is justified for this game. He did turn the ball over. He still has lots of things to learn and needs to develop his decision making ability in theses cir stances.

But the thing is that he just can't have a break, no matter has good he has been playing lately. No other spurs player gets this kind of treatment. You people will never get satisfied.

[smeagol]

Hatng on TP because his play was subpar in ONE FREIKING game is stupid.

Hating on Manu to defend TP (what ducks does all the time) or hating on TP to defend Manu (what many Argies do) is also stupid.

[ducks]

wow... one loss after going 6-1 in NOVEMBER!! and everyone is jumping off cliffs. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE'RE BACK TO THIS TONY vs MANU BULL AGAIN!! I'm not surprised to see ducks and his moronic comments in here, but the people who keep saying Manu is better than Tony... WHERE IS THE PROOF?? I'm about the biggest Manu fan in here, with a few exceptions, and its freaking obvious that Tony is the better player right now, and just because he had ONE turnover prone game doesn't change a damn thing.

I can't believe Tony hasn't proven himself in the your eyes people!! What the does he have to do? average 30pts per game?? Sure, he could improve his assists per game, but damn! its not like the dude isn't playing out of his mind as of late!

good post

[hitmanyr2k]

When he didn't have a jumpshot, he struggled. And yes, he had tunnel vision at times. But honestly the bashing in this thread is out of control.

Up until last night, he was averaging very very few turnovers this season. Last night, he DID actually pass very well and his teammates missed a lot of layups and 3 pointers. Did he up in the 4th quarter? Yes a couple times. But the Bobcats were also clawing the ball from his hands.

I just don't get when people will be satisfied. You guys are acting like it's the norm that Tony puts his head down and ignores everyone on the team while shooting a sub par percentage and committing a ton of turnovers. And that's crap. People calling him an overrated All-Star in this thread and saying "so what" about his shooting percentage is stupid.

He was the most consistent Spur all last season. He has been the most consistent Spurs so far in this short season. What he's done in the paint has been simply amazing. And his jump shot is looking increasingly better all the time. Last year when he was "chucking" 20 shots a game, Pop said he wanted him to shoot 25.

I just don't get why he gets thrown under the bus so easily. Manu could shoot under 40% for 10 games, make crucial turnovers late in the games, and then have one big 4th quarter and he's annoited. Barry can act passive, 0-for-whatever, and then he knocks down a couple 3's and the people that doubted him are told by the masses to eat crow. Elson can miss rotation after rotation and be constantly pulled aside by teammates and coaches, but Spurs fans think it's cool because he dunks.

But God forbid, Tony have a bad game.

Trade him.

I think people will only be satisfied with Tony Parker when he's completely proven. When the day comes where Tony Parker can get through a championship run without having his duties thrust on someone else because he's choking all the criticisms and second guessing will stop. When you're proven you tend to get that "teflon" shield. Ask Robert Horry. He can suck all year long but as long as he's hitting those big shots in May and June with the world watching all those crap games November through March are forgotten.

That's the difference between Ginobili and Parker....

When Parker has a bad game it drudges up memories of his past failures and disappearing acts during the le runs. The critics will always have the questions in the back of their minds. Will he still be turnover prone when the pressure is on? Will that jumpshot (or free throw) go in when the game is hanging in the balance? Regardless of the regular season those questions are valid.

Contrast to that, Ginobili gets annointed every 4th quarter comeback because it brings back memories of big games in April-June where he's proven. He's now the Argentine version of Robert Horry with the teflon shield. He can have sub-par games in November because everyone expects him to step it up come playoff time and repeat past success.

It's not fair but that's the way it is.

[itzsoweezee]

he had three assists b/c noone else coudl make a freaking basket.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think people will only be satisfied with Tony Parker when he's completely proven. When the day comes where Tony Parker can get through a championship run without having his duties thrust on someone else because he's choking all the criticisms and second guessing will stop. When you're proven you tend to get that "teflon" shield. Ask Robert Horry. He can suck all year long but as long as he's hitting those big shots in May and June with the world watching all those crap games November through March are forgotten.

That's the difference between Ginobili and Parker....

When Parker has a bad game it drudges up memories of his past failures and disappearing acts during the le runs. The critics will always have the questions in the back of their minds. Will he still be turnover prone when the pressure is on? Will that jumpshot (or free throw) go in when the game is hanging in the balance? Regardless of the regular season those questions are valid.

Contrast to that, Ginobili gets annointed every 4th quarter comeback because it brings back memories of big games in April-June where he's proven. He's now the Argentine version of Robert Horry with the teflon shield. He can have sub-par games in November because everyone expects him to step it up come playoff time and repeat past success.

It's not fair but that's the way it is.

It's not just this seaon that people are referring to when mentioning their frustrations with TP. You can look back through the playoffs starting in 03 when TP didn't play in the 4th qtr of Game 6 or last year in game 4 when he had 5 turnovers in the first half..and we lost by one point.. I can think back to one particular sequence in game 4 last year..

2 minutes left in tbe 3rd qtr and the Spurs are up by 10.... I notice that TP is the only starter on the floor.. I think to myself "Tony don't do anything stupid we need to keep this lead:

the next 3 possessions..TP dribbles into the lane 1 on 5 turnover that leads to a fast break and a layup..

next possession TP dribbles the ball for about 20 seconds then takes an off balance 20+ footer.. miss fast break layup..

very next possession TP dribble into the lane again 1 on 5 shot is blocked ..fast break the other way ..Dirk for 3...

end of qtr lead for Spurs..3 points...

I was livid but I also could sense what was going to happen...

[z0sa]

^ Exactly my point. TP doesn't have the feel for it yet, no matter how good he is, he's still just too young. You've got to know when to get your teammates involved cause your struggling. That means, letting them dribble the ball, and pass it around when Parker might not even get a touch except to throw it in to Duncan, etc. The argument that people are missing is a good one, but when TP is dominating the ball and not trying to get Finley more involved since he was so hot, for example, should be a good enough counter argument. TP's 20 footer isn't THAT good yet. Sadly, hes going to be a ballhog and we're just going to have to live with that.

[ginobili fan]

^ Exactly my point. TP doesn't have the feel for it yet, no matter how good he is, he's still just too young. You've got to know when to get your teammates involved cause your struggling. That means, letting them dribble the ball, and pass it around when Parker might not even get a touch except to throw it in to Duncan, etc. The argument that people are missing is a good one, but when TP is dominating the ball and not trying to get Finley more involved since he was so hot, for example, should be a good enough counter argument. TP's 20 footer isn't THAT good yet. Sadly, hes going to be a ballhog and we're just going to have to live with that.

But the problem is that the hog is you because you don't understand that tony is just doing what POP ask kim to do:sometimes he is successful(most of the time) and sometimes he fails like last night.That's all!!!!! there is no question to debate like f**king stupid HOG or as though it was a philosophy exam

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Love all of the holier than thou rhetoric but is it to much to ask for that our point guard make better decisions late in the game? Is it to much to ask for that if he cannot contribute offensively he find another way to help the team? I guess it's the 'haters' like me that expect 'perfection' but in all honesty when a pattern emerges can we at least debate it without the condescencion? The last time I checked we can all disgree and be correct at the same time.

Eh, I've been on Parker's case for a while. I'm not calling anyone out specifically for being haters, but it was one frickin' game! Tony's been fine so far and his TO's have been down. And all the Spurs played ty that night, so why single Tony out, when you already know he had a bad night, and wasn't exactly making the best decisions.
I doubt the expectations we put on Parker will ever be fully met, (some things can't be taught--like clutchness) and I really blame Pop for all the mess that happens with Tony chucking 25 shots, and the other teams capitalizing on his misses. We know the future is Tony, and maybe that's why Pop is using, nay, exploiting Parker's youth as if he were able to carry the Spurs in the regular season already.
The problem I have had with Tony in the past was how the stronger defenses know his game and read it nine times out of ten to frustrate him. He can be shut down offensively. With Manu and Tim, their games aren't see easy to eliminate as Tony's has been. He can have good, decent stat lines in games we lose, which I think the Tony Homers fail to see as evident of Tony lacking that gamechanger quality.
I have no problem with criticizing Tony, or any other players, but like someone said earlier, one measly sign of a weakness on Tony's part coupled with a Spurs regular loss--and we get thread that overblow the whole "problem with Tony" thing. He's reaching the point where he's doing more good than bad, especially now that he's becoming a consistent FT shooter.

[ginobili fan]

And I'm pretty sure that if POP ask him to just pass the ball all the time, TP will all the same hane just 5 assists/game because with spurs system, it's IMPOSSIBLE to make 10assist/game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK?????? do you understand?????? IF you're not happy,support the SUNS!!!!!

[ducks]

It's not just this seaon that people are referring to when mentioning their frustrations with TP. You can look back through the playoffs starting in 03 when TP didn't play in the 4th qtr of Game 6 or last year in game 4 when he had 5 turnovers in the first half..and we lost by one point.. I can think back to one particular sequence in game 4 last year..

2 minutes left in tbe 3rd qtr and the Spurs are up by 10.... I notice that TP is the only starter on the floor.. I think to myself "Tony don't do anything stupid we need to keep this lead:

the next 3 possessions..TP dribbles into the lane 1 on 5 turnover that leads to a fast break and a layup..

next possession TP dribbles the ball for about 20 seconds then takes an off balance 20+ footer.. miss fast break layup..

very next possession TP dribble into the lane again 1 on 5 shot is blocked ..fast break the other way ..Dirk for 3...

end of qtr lead for Spurs..3 points...

I was livid but I also could sense what was going to happen...

did you watch kidd at that age

[Texas_Ranger]

Tony will never be the best point guard, if he don`t start making more assists. Until then Kidd, Baron Davis... are better.

[ducks]

duncan said they missed to many layups last game
but i GUESS IF KIDD PASSED THEM THE BALL INSTEAD THEY WOULD HAVE WENT IN

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

duncan said they missed to many layups last game
but i GUESS IF KIDD PASSED THEM THE BALL INSTEAD THEY WOULD HAVE WENT IN

You can't blame assists on the players who don't make their shots all the time, take Steve Nash out of the suns everyone starts clunking their shots and they become a 20 win team again. I mean, Manu got in 7 assists that game when they were shooting piss poor. Sometimes other players are better at seeing a play and getting the ball to their teammates at the right time. I think Parker is getting flak for missing opportunities when there'd be a wide open player. Not just in this game, but during many stretches each game.

[Lady M]

Manu got in 7 assists that game when they were shooting piss poor.

how many passes for TP?

[Mavs<Spurs]

this is kind of gay to have to do our annual tony vs manu and bash tony parker.

I have some criticisms of Tony Parker, but he is about as good a point guard as there is in the league and is only 24.

My biggest criticism of Tony now is when he plays like Allen Iverson, but at least his field goal percentage is vastly better than AI.

I wish that Tony would create more for others. I do think that when Tony is not scoring, he is not really helping the team. Manu does create more opportunities for others and can help the team without having to score.

Nevertheless, defenses do have to set out to stop Tony's penetration, he is shooting around 50 percent for the year, as he did last year. Therefore, it is ridiculous to jump all over Tony. After all, if Tony shoots 50 % from the field and the others shoot 35%, then the numbers suggest Tony should shoot more than the others.

Tony has greatly improved his perimeter jumpshot and I am now comfortable when he is shooting free throws or taking outside jumpshots. That was his single biggest weakness and in one year, it is now a strength. Combine that with his tear dropper and his general ability to get into the lane and score or collapse the defense and you have a player who is almost unguardable.

There is no other point guard in the league that is playing much better than Tony. Tony has earned the right to be in the conversation when we are talking about the best point guards in the game. He is only 24. Considering all of this and what he has accomplished, there is no one out there who we would or should trade Tony Parker for who plays point guard. That should end the debate and stop the people from throwing Tony under the bus. Tony was an all star last year, will be an all star this year and for many years to come.
He is a terrific point guard, just not perfected.

For all the Tony haters, what other point guard would you trade for Tony Parker? Nash- age? Kidd- outside shot, age ?


Finally, hopefully, Kori, you were not saying that you think that Tony has outplayed Tim Duncan this year, because I think that it is fairly obvious that this is not the case. Not only do I prefer Tim's numbers, but lest we forget, there are two sides to play, offense and defense, not to mention that the very first thing that teams must try to stop is not Tony Parker, it is Tim Duncan. A healthy Tim Duncan is always the best player for the Spurs.