Danny Granger can't buy a call

[ponky]

Well, here's the deal - everyone, from the coaching staff to the real fans (aka me), wanted Thomas to stop that hand in the face B.S. from the start. Most of that is because we can differentiate the "calm, collected" Thomas who hits a 3 against the Lakers to save the season from the "calm, and very lazy" Thomas who grabs only one rebound in Game 2 against the Mavs and misses a bunch of 3's that cost the Suns a chance at going up 2-0. That said, I think he took it upon himself to add some swagger to the team, since they were called "soft" throughout the whole year and especially in the Lakers series. I thought it was awesome when he called Dirk a "big ass pussy" and blew the kiss because that was the type of at ude the Suns had been missing for years. After Dirk dropped 50, I wasn't so happy he did it to set Dirk off.

Still, to answer your question, I didn't take the Darrell Armstrong mocking to be all that bad because (a) it wasn't the deciding game of the series, (b) Armstrong is a veteran who has paid a lot of dues over the years and always played hard, and (c) I wanted Thomas to get mocked for awkening the 50-pt beast.

It's very ironic to me that posters like dirk4mvp think Suns fans have a huge attachment to Tim Thomas and continue to make fun of us because of what he did. I like him for the shots he hit and the fact that he added a very cheap big body at the end of the season for a depleted Suns front line. Secondly, it was in a contract year, so we all knew he was going to play harder to pull a Jerome James and get someone to pay him a lot of money over the summer. Third, I knew he was a funny guy with some playoff experience, so chemistry-wise he would be a good fit.

However, none of that meant I was extremely upset to see him go this summer because he played lazy defense and got in foul trouble sometimes, didn't crash the boards hard, and took ill-advised shots rather than play the typical Suns' unselfish style of play. He'll always hold a place in Suns history for his shot against the Lakers, but other than, that - he falls into the category of Sam Cassell, Robert Horry and Chucky Brown: talented, but not quite the fit for a long haul.

Now, to further the comparison with the Chargers/Pats game, I maintain that I don't think Armstrong making fun was quite the same because (as I said) it was only game 5. However, I feel the ucontested, rubbing-it-in dunk with about 1 second left by Adrian Griffin in Game 6 last year is akin to the Pat's dancing on the logo. Even the typically clueless Phoenix crowd started booing when that dunk went down because the game was already in hand and players at the other end of the floor started congratulating each other.

(Side note: I became really offended last year when Mavs' fans started blasting our fans because they thought they were being poor sports and booing the Mavs when they were in fact booing Griffin's unsportsmanlike dunk... the people that angered me even more were the fans who tried to deny Griffin even did it! I think Leonard used the term, "Griff is a vet; he would never do that." I'm curious if Griffin is gone because Avery saw that and wouldn't stand for it.)

Anyways, back on topic - I think since that dunk came in a deciding game and was unsportsmanlike, it is more like the Pats tramping/dancing on the Chargers' logo in an elimination game and more equal in terms of showing the other team up. I only wish LT were on the Suns to body check Griffin and then call him out in the press conference. Still, Griffin is wasting his days away in Toronto, so there's a little bit of justice there. Now, if Griffin had dunked it and done the Thomas hand wave, then there'd be no contest... haha.

thanks for your reply, we pretty much agree although my bf can't bear to call out the mavs for anything and i can...i'm not saying i'd call out griffin or armstrong but i was trying to get him to see how celebrations can be viewed by the losing teams and their fanbase...i'm very compe ive AND unsportsmanlike when it' comes to the sports i've competed in...i won all the time in high school and college but now that i don't do sports compe ively i guess i've turned that at ude i have in cheering for the mavs, but don't take anything personally, it's just talk and some of it is light smack

seriously though, thanks for taking the time out to respond

[ponky]

And Dirk's rolling ankle routine is just as bad as the "Wade acts injured routine"

sure it is, just like nash's back routine and the way he mops up the floor during when he's sitting on the bench....oops, i meant lying down on the floor

[Sacramental]

i know how nash feels though. i play ball everyday, and your back starts to tighten up real bad out there.

[stretch]

Mavs just have the best record in the NBA and you have anointed them 2007 Champs already with the majority of your posts... therefore, why can't I use their stellar regular season records since 1968 to argue that they are the better franchise overall? Seems to be congruous to me because you to me that the Suns don't have les and then you say that using "championships to talk is a very weak insult" when the MAVS DON'T HAVE A LE EITHER!

So, basically you're using 2 years of the Mavs being tops in the NBA (record-wise) to say they should be the 2007 champs, and I'm simply using 38 years of the Suns being much better than the Mavs to prove I'd rather cheer for a consistent winner than be some bandwagon fan.

*sigh* I would really like for you to show me where I once crowned the Mavs as the Champs this year. I really would. Its really annoying to see post after post of you doing nothing but putting words in my mouth and having nothing to back them up with.

and who gives a about who the better franchise overall is? the only thing that matters is how many rings you have. the Mavs have none, and the Suns have none either. they are equally bad. as far as im concerned, the Heat is a better franchise than either, because they have a championship, and neither of us do. and i never once talked about the Suns, other than the fact that IMO, they do not play enough defense, and rebound well enough to win a le. that is MY OPINION. thats not talking . i never claimed to have a le either, or talked as if the Mavs won a le, as you keep saying. the only i talked was about YOU. i say that you are a ing moron, along with half the other people in this forum.

the bulls won 72 games in 1996. doesnt mean a damn thing today. are you really that ignorant, so as to believe that the history of a team means anything about how good they are today? if thats the case, why do the Celtics suck so much ass? they have more les than any team in NBA history, yet have been one of the tiest teams over the past couple years. clearly, history doesnt mean in this case. all that matters is what is happening today. and right now, the Mavericks are clearly a better team than the Suns. as i have said about 1000 times, all that really matters is the playoffs, and we will have to wait and see what happens then. but it doesnt really matter... all you are going to say is that i annointed the Mavs as champs, that the Suns are better, Mavs choked against the Heat and that used the officiating to make excuses, blah blah blah...

[stretch]

...and then hypocrite (stretch) comes out and acts like his profanity-laced posts are gospel. Stretch will change his argument from day-to-day and add as many " you's" " wads" or " sniffers" to his posts to make it more emphatic. I've never seen someone make an argument and then blast non-Mavs fans who use his same reasoning.

. ing show me where the i ing did that ing you ing faced headed lick. . i ing still ing wonder where the you keep ing get this ing that you ing keep ing putting in my ing mouth you ing er. and i never ing called you a ing " sniffer" you ing wad. , if you are ing going to ing quote me you er, at least ing quote me ing correctly you face.

[stretch]

my bf and i were disagreeing about the whole LT/dance thing, i think it was fine to celebrate and the bf doesn't so i compared what the pats did to what darrell armstrong did when the mavs beat the suns last season in the playoffs. remember when tim thomas did his hand over the face gesture in game five and mouthed some crap to dirk? well, during the second half when it became apparent that the mavs would win and dirk scored a ridiculous number of points, darrell armstrong was laughing and taunting tim thomas with the hand over the face gesture. would you agree that this is kind of the same thing the pats did to the chargers by doing the merriman dance after winning? i say yes but my bf is a huge mavs homer (worse than me!) and won't admit it

yea, but thats a tad different. first off, football is a bit of a different sport, and what mostly irritated LT was the fact that they did it on the mid-field logo. that is KNOWN to be flat out disrespectful in football. it doesnt matter where you do that, you are going to piss some people off, and probably get hit or something.

what D.A. did was a result of the way that the Suns (Tim Thomas in particular) disrespected the Mavs the entire series with all his non-stop trash talk, and especially considering he still had the nerve to do that, despite Dirk dropping 50 on him the night before. he talked trash, and got owned, and ultimately lost. therefore, the Mavs had all the right in the world to do all the trash talking they wanted after the game, but they chose not to. the only thing they did was D.A. blowing on his hand, and that was simply a shot at the most disrespectful player in the entire series. the same was with the Mavs against the Rockets a couple years ago. they were being very disrespectful by trying to disrespect them publicly, and predicting that they would win the series after game 1. then the Mavs made a remarkable comeback, and beat their asses in game 7. but not once did they talk any kind of trash about them, or act disrespectful in any way. thats how a team shows class.

what the Pats did was simply disrespectful. the Chargers were not publicly talking trash, or doing things that insulted and disrespected the Pats. but when half the team goes and dances on your logo, BEFORE the game is even over, that is flat out disrespectful, even if they won. sure, they are allowed to talk trash and all, since they won, but it doesnt mean its a classy or right thing to do. on the other hand, L.T. shouldnt have done what he did either. he obviously lost his cool, and got upset over the loss, and let their celebration get to him too much. but i give him a pass on this one, because he has never done anything like that before, and all people are imperfect and make mistakes from time to time. that was simply a mistake that L.T. made.

thats just my opinion on that matter.

[mabber]

Well, here's the deal - everyone, from the coaching staff to the real fans (aka me), wanted Thomas to stop that hand in the face B.S. from the start. Most of that is because we can differentiate the "calm, collected" Thomas who hits a 3 against the Lakers to save the season from the "calm, and very lazy" Thomas who grabs only one rebound in Game 2 against the Mavs and misses a bunch of 3's that cost the Suns a chance at going up 2-0. That said, I think he took it upon himself to add some swagger to the team, since they were called "soft" throughout the whole year and especially in the Lakers series. I thought it was awesome when he called Dirk a "big ass pussy" and blew the kiss because that was the type of at ude the Suns had been missing for years. After Dirk dropped 50, I wasn't so happy he did it to set Dirk off.

Still, to answer your question, I didn't take the Darrell Armstrong mocking to be all that bad because (a) it wasn't the deciding game of the series, (b) Armstrong is a veteran who has paid a lot of dues over the years and always played hard, and (c) I wanted Thomas to get mocked for awkening the 50-pt beast.

It's very ironic to me that posters like dirk4mvp think Suns fans have a huge attachment to Tim Thomas and continue to make fun of us because of what he did. I like him for the shots he hit and the fact that he added a very cheap big body at the end of the season for a depleted Suns front line. Secondly, it was in a contract year, so we all knew he was going to play harder to pull a Jerome James and get someone to pay him a lot of money over the summer. Third, I knew he was a funny guy with some playoff experience, so chemistry-wise he would be a good fit.

However, none of that meant I was extremely upset to see him go this summer because he played lazy defense and got in foul trouble sometimes, didn't crash the boards hard, and took ill-advised shots rather than play the typical Suns' unselfish style of play. He'll always hold a place in Suns history for his shot against the Lakers, but other than, that - he falls into the category of Sam Cassell, Robert Horry and Chucky Brown: talented, but not quite the fit for a long haul.

Now, to further the comparison with the Chargers/Pats game, I maintain that I don't think Armstrong making fun was quite the same because (as I said) it was only game 5. However, I feel the ucontested, rubbing-it-in dunk with about 1 second left by Adrian Griffin in Game 6 last year is akin to the Pat's dancing on the logo. Even the typically clueless Phoenix crowd started booing when that dunk went down because the game was already in hand and players at the other end of the floor started congratulating each other.

(Side note: I became really offended last year when Mavs' fans started blasting our fans because they thought they were being poor sports and booing the Mavs when they were in fact booing Griffin's unsportsmanlike dunk... the people that angered me even more were the fans who tried to deny Griffin even did it! I think Leonard used the term, "Griff is a vet; he would never do that." I'm curious if Griffin is gone because Avery saw that and wouldn't stand for it.)

Anyways, back on topic - I think since that dunk came in a deciding game and was unsportsmanlike, it is more like the Pats tramping/dancing on the Chargers' logo in an elimination game and more equal in terms of showing the other team up. I only wish LT were on the Suns to body check Griffin and then call him out in the press conference. Still, Griffin is wasting his days away in Toronto, so there's a little bit of justice there. Now, if Griffin had dunked it and done the Thomas hand wave, then there'd be no contest... haha.

I heard and/or read 3-4 different Mavs comment on Griffin's dunk at the end. First off, Griffin is an incredibly nice guy and is not known for doing like that but he probably should have restrained himself in this instance (easy for us to say as we weren't in the heat of the battle). The reason he gave (and other Mav players said same thing) was that a few of the Sun's players were talking all sorts of trash the entire series and were especially talking trash in the 1st half of game 6 when they had the big lead. The Mav players to a man were extremely pissed off about getting their asses kicked at halftime along with having to listen to all the trash talk. They took that anger out on the Suns in the 2nd half and when they finally won the game Griffin did that dunk at the end (while stairing at Thomas at other end of the court). It was way out of character for him or really most of the Mav players (I can see Josh Howard or maybe Stackhouse doing it maybe) but it was the wrong thing to do and I'm sure Avery didn't really appreciate it.

I don't think it had anything to do with Griffin not being re-signed. The Mavs just wanted a Griffin-like defender & rebounder that could also make a 3 pointer so they signed Buckner.

I'm sure Tim Thomas was the main trash-talker but Mav players said there were a few others (but didn't mention names). Regardless, that dunk was the wrong thing to do. I think the Mav players were just really tired of hearing certain players flap their lips.

[RonMexico]

I heard and/or read 3-4 different Mavs comment on Griffin's dunk at the end. First off, Griffin is an incredibly nice guy and is not known for doing like that but he probably should have restrained himself in this instance (easy for us to say as we weren't in the heat of the battle). The reason he gave (and other Mav players said same thing) was that a few of the Sun's players were talking all sorts of trash the entire series and were especially talking trash in the 1st half of game 6 when they had the big lead. The Mav players to a man were extremely pissed off about getting their asses kicked at halftime along with having to listen to all the trash talk. They took that anger out on the Suns in the 2nd half and when they finally won the game Griffin did that dunk at the end (while stairing at Thomas at other end of the court). It was way out of character for him or really most of the Mav players (I can see Josh Howard or maybe Stackhouse doing it maybe) but it was the wrong thing to do and I'm sure Avery didn't really appreciate it.

I don't think it had anything to do with Griffin not being re-signed. The Mavs just wanted a Griffin-like defender & rebounder that could also make a 3 pointer so they signed Buckner.

I'm sure Tim Thomas was the main trash-talker but Mav players said there were a few others (but didn't mention names). Regardless, that dunk was the wrong thing to do. I think the Mav players were just really tired of hearing certain players flap their lips.

I can agree with you on a lot of main points, but come at it from a Suns perspective as well. They don't have a lot of talkers out there - Barbosa/Diaw barely say anything; Nash/Marion are pretty quiet too; Bell probably talks some , and Amare - probably the main talker now - was on the bench. I think it was in response to a long playoff run for them, getting underappreciated against Lakers and Clippers and now facing elimination at home - so they got snippy. We both have to agree that JET, Josh Howard, and Stack were probably talking some too the whole series because that's their style (maybe JET was just "flying around" instead), and the Suns probably started trying to throw it back since they were on the brink of elimination and trying to do whatever they could.

I know one thing, though, the Suns were getting very angry at what they perceived was Josh Howard intentionally trying to trip them up to slow down fast breaks, especially Marion. I saw Howard do this a couple of times, so I know what they're talking about, but it definitely didn't lose the Suns the series. Either way, if they wanted to be real men, they would have used it as motivation to play harder and not sat back whining a little bit. I still maintain that a healthy Raja Bell could have pushed that series to 7 games.

[RonMexico]

. ing show me where the i ing did that ing you ing faced headed lick. . i ing still ing wonder where the you keep ing get this ing that you ing keep ing putting in my ing mouth you ing er. and i never ing called you a ing " sniffer" you ing wad. , if you are ing going to ing quote me you er, at least ing quote me ing correctly you face.

It's difficult to quote you "correctly" because your obnoxious opinions change on an hourly basis. Thanks for putting words in my mouth regarding the championship agrument - it was CelticPride who was trying that line of BS. I was just saying that I've been a Suns fan for a long time and watched A LOT of NBA games and I've seen teams that play "just good enough" defense (which is where the Suns are right now) win a championship.

I didn't just start watching around 1996 (like plenty of people here, I'm sure) where only defense won championships, and I'm glad to see the cycle come back around where teams started fast breaking and there's a newfound emphasis on offensive skill. The only difference is that Europeans (whose style is probably 10 years behind the current NBA anyways) kept playing a fast breaking style of the 80s, so the young players from overseas who grew up in that mold can fit right into today's "old-school" NBA.

[stretch]

It's difficult to quote you "correctly" because your obnoxious opinions change on an hourly basis.

if you cant quote me, then STFU.

[RonMexico]

if you cant quote me, then STFU.

I can quote what you're feeling for this one moment - but that's going to change tomorrow when you come in and say "Danny Granger did get fouled" or something like that.

[mabber]

I can agree with you on a lot of main points, but come at it from a Suns perspective as well. They don't have a lot of talkers out there - Barbosa/Diaw barely say anything; Nash/Marion are pretty quiet too; Bell probably talks some , and Amare - probably the main talker now - was on the bench. I think it was in response to a long playoff run for them, getting underappreciated against Lakers and Clippers and now facing elimination at home - so they got snippy. We both have to agree that JET, Josh Howard, and Stack were probably talking some too the whole series because that's their style (maybe JET was just "flying around" instead), and the Suns probably started trying to throw it back since they were on the brink of elimination and trying to do whatever they could.

I know one thing, though, the Suns were getting very angry at what they perceived was Josh Howard intentionally trying to trip them up to slow down fast breaks, especially Marion. I saw Howard do this a couple of times, so I know what they're talking about, but it definitely didn't lose the Suns the series. Either way, if they wanted to be real men, they would have used it as motivation to play harder and not sat back whining a little bit. I still maintain that a healthy Raja Bell could have pushed that series to 7 games.

I'm not defending Griffin's actions, just telling you what I heard and read.

I do know for a fact that no one on the Mavs talks much smack. Avery won't allow it. Plus, I'm a season ticket holder and go to most games and my seats are in lower corner so I hear who's talking and who's not. Mav players don't say much at all unless it's Dirk ing to the refs. Josh Howard & Stackhouse will do some questionable things physically...I'll grant you that. Most of it is in retailation as Avery doesn't want them to be pushed around anymore.

I'm guessing the majority of the smack talk was coming from Tim Thomas. He's just one of those players that needs to run his mouth a lot. There are lots of players like that out there.

[stretch]

I know one thing, though, the Suns were getting very angry at what they perceived was Josh Howard intentionally trying to trip them up to slow down fast breaks, especially Marion.

OMG, MORE EXCUSES?!?!?! you really are a miserably worthless piece of .

[stretch]

I can quote what you're feeling for this one moment - but that's going to change tomorrow when you come in and say "Danny Granger did get fouled" or something like that.

i have no idea what you are talking about, especially since i never said a word about Danny Granger. i simply said that you whine and too damn much, instead of saying that the better team won, which is obviously what happened. the Mavs made plays when they needed them, and the Pacers didnt. end of story.

[RonMexico]

OMG, MORE EXCUSES?!?!?! you really are a miserably worthless piece of .

So your fans can complain that Suns "were talking " and that's why Griffin showed no class at the end of the series, but I can't quote Shawn Marion, James Jones, and Leandro Barbosa about your wannabe All-Star forward?

[RonMexico]

i have no idea what you are talking about, especially since i never said a word about Danny Granger. i simply said that you whine and too damn much, instead of saying that the better team won, which is obviously what happened. the Mavs made plays when they needed them, and the Pacers didnt. end of story.

I'm referencing the other thread where you said Nash wouldn't/shouldn't win MVP about 3 weeks ago, and then now, you say he's the "front-runner"

[BradLohaus]

the Mavs made plays when they needed them, and the Pacers didnt. end of story.

Just like DWade made plays when he needed to in Miami and the Mavs didn't.

[RonMexico]

I'm not defending Griffin's actions, just telling you what I heard and read.

I do know for a fact that no one on the Mavs talks much smack. Avery won't allow it. Plus, I'm a season ticket holder and go to most games and my seats are in lower corner so I hear who's talking and who's not. Mav players don't say much at all unless it's Dirk ing to the refs. Josh Howard & Stackhouse will do some questionable things physically...I'll grant you that. Most of it is in retailation as Avery doesn't want them to be pushed around anymore.

I'm guessing the majority of the smack talk was coming from Tim Thomas. He's just one of those players that needs to run his mouth a lot. There are lots of players like that out there.

You must not be listening hard enough. Avery trash talks in press conferences (he veils it with terms like "bear-hug", but still does). You need to watch Howard and Stack more closely next time - they might not be as loud as Dirk or Tim Thomas, but they're definitely in the ears of opponents.

[mabber]

Just like DWade made plays when he needed to in Miami and the Mavs didn't.

I'm trying to forget that recent part of Mav history and you're not helping

[BradLohaus]

I'm trying to forget that recent part of Mav history and you're not helping

I was just kidding. I know the refs screwed the Mavs.

[stretch]

So your fans can complain that Suns "were talking " and that's why Griffin showed no class at the end of the series, but I can't quote Shawn Marion, James Jones, and Leandro Barbosa about your wannabe All-Star forward?

hmm. i never complained about them talking . and i dont think that mabber was complaining either. he was simply giving a possibly reason as to why Griffin did that last dunk.

oh, and i dont see how he can be a wannabe All-Star forward, considering he has been an all-star for 5 straight years, and has made All-NBA teams 6 straight years (two straight 1st team appearances as well). he finished 3rd in MVP voting 2 straight years, as well as a finals appearance. thats a pretty solid resume so far, considering he is just now reaching his prime.

[RonMexico]

I was just kidding. I know the refs screwed the Mavs.

Don't say that around stretch - anything about the refs makes you vulnerable to a " " attack.

[RonMexico]

hmm. i never complained about them talking . and i dont think that mabber was complaining either. he was simply giving a possibly reason as to why Griffin did that last dunk.

oh, and i dont see how he can be a wannabe All-Star forward, considering he has been an all-star for 5 straight years, and has made All-NBA teams 6 straight years (two straight 1st team appearances as well). he finished 3rd in MVP voting 2 straight years, as well as a finals appearance. thats a pretty solid resume so far, considering he is just now reaching his prime.

I was talking about Josh Howard, but try to keep up next time.

[stretch]

I'm referencing the other thread where you said Nash wouldn't/shouldn't win MVP about 3 weeks ago, and then now, you say he's the "front-runner"

i dont recall anything about saying that he shouldnt win MVP. i MAY have said something about why he wouldnt, just because he has won it 2 straight years, and Stern is a ing moron and wouldnt mind jobbing someone who deserves it, just so he can make guys like Kobe and Wade look like God's of the NBA.

either way, once again, if you are going to reference things i say, quote me. until then, shut the up.

[stretch]

Don't say that around stretch - anything about the refs makes you vulnerable to a " " attack.

no. thats just you. im not going to say whether or not the refs screwed the Mavs. once again, all you have to do is watch the replays, and any ing moron can determine that for themselves. the fact is, the Mavs lost the Finals on their own ty play. not officiating. end of story.