ing Chavez

[whottt]

Socialism is the ultimate form of selfishness...

It takes from others completely.

And that's right it fails, because everyone starts wanting a little bit more...corruption and socialism go hand in hand...and usually it's the biggest advocates and leaders that end up becoming corrupt.

Socialism is the Catholic Priest of Governments.


And it fails, not because humans are selfish, but because they are built to compete.


Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

And those that don't want to compete genrally don't want to work...so what ends up happening is the only ones carrying the weight in a Socialist Society are those that want no part of it. And even it's staunches advocates are the most competive...so in time they will change as well.



It sucks...I don't want to be a communal creature...I'm not a ing ant. I want to do what the I want to do and who is to say I am wrong for doing that, so long as I don't hurt anyone?

Who appointed Karl Marx my judge and jury?


Why should someone that doesn't work as hard as I do have the same status?


And all Chavez has done is ed Venezuela's economy.


And Velik...the US isn't particularly worried about friends at this juncture, we are more concerned with a hostile ideology...why do you think we re-elected W?

[mookie2001]

so just because we dont know about latin america means we cant have an opinion??

[mookie2001]

lets change the subject to something we can all agree on, the 911 commission report

[whottt]

so just because we dont know about latin america means we cant have an opinion??

I'd say if you didn't vote for Bush in the last election you can't have an opinion

[Nbadan]

And all Chavez has done is ed Venezuela's economy.

Chavez's economic average yearly growth rate is at least twice Dubya's.

[Nbadan]

Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

There is only one race, the human race. It's people like Whott who make the utopian dream of Socialism not possible. Some people simply think that for whatever reason, they are better than other people and deserving more. Economically, socialism doesn't work because there is no set structure of supply and demand, so there can be wide price and supply fluctuations.

[Nbadan]

I don't want to be a communal creature

That's exactly where years of FED policy of easy money is taking us though. There are millions of families at risk of home foreclosure. There will be thousands of homes, once the over-burden of some unlucky smuck, that will sit empty. It's not hard to do the math.

[smeagol]

Chavez's economic average yearly growth rate is at least twice Dubya's.

Great, Dan is in the mood of teaching us economics, something he knows nothing about.

First, Venezuela's economy has been extremely volatile this past 8 years given the uncertainty a character such as Chvez causes.

Here's the GDP growth:

1999 (7.2%)
2000 3.2%
2001 2.7%
2002 (8.9%)
2003 (9.2%)
2004 16.8%
2005 9.3%

As you can see, the fluctuations are so severe, measuremnts become almost meaningless.

Furthermore, trying to compare the GDP growth of a stable, developed economy such as the US' against the economy of an emerging market is plain stupid.

Hey Argentina has been growing at an average of 8% since 2002 . . . Argentina is kicking the US' but

[Nbadan]

Furthermore, trying to compare the GDP growth of a stable, developed economy such as the US' against the economy of an emerging market is plain stupid.

Were not comparing economic strength, we are comparing economic growth.

Who's prospects are better? Certainly not the U.S..

[smeagol]

Were not comparing economic strength, we are comparing economic growth.

You cannot compare GDP growth rates of two very different economies. It makes no sense, wether you know this or not (and you probably don't, even though you yap about economics frequently).

Who's prospects are better? Certainly not the U.S..

Are you telling me Venezuela or Argentina have better economic prospects than the US ?

[whottt]

There is only one race, the human race.

Yawn..tell that to all the races.

It's people like Whott who make the utopian dream of Socialism not possible.

Yeap...guess what , I don't agree with that...

And you know why? Because I'm human.

We're not all a bunch of drones...clones with the exact same wants need desires and dreams.

That why it doesn't work, that's why it never will work, and that's why Socialism has to be forced on to people.

Which makes it un American.

And you know what?

No one is stopping you from being a socialist Dan...as a matter of fact, there quite a few socialist governments in dire need of citizens to regulate...

Go be one.

Stop trying to control those of us that don't want too...you dictator.

Some people simply think that for whatever reason, they are better than other people and deserving more.

Um...it's reality.

You take away all the illusions of civilization and guess what?

Person that works harder, that is smarter...is going to wind up with more 90% or the time.


It's called survival of the fittest and it is what is real in this world and if that battle isn't being won, than nothing else is going to be won either.

IE, equal rights, liberalism, a womans right not to be raped.


I don't think it's fair that bears can eat me...unfortunately, that's the way it ing is..

I think life would be better if bears didn't want to eat me...unfortunately, it's not the way it is.


I'd also think life was better if there weren't Islamic fascists attempting to control me...with designs on nuking one of my cities...however, that isn't the case.

IF someone wants to punch you in the face...I'd be willing to be most people will defend themselves sooner or later...unless they are being that does not seek to survive.

Economically, socialism doesn't work because there is no set structure of supply and demand, so there can be wide price and supply fluctuations.

It doesn't work because it takes away the creativity of the individual, the drive to succeed...

You basically have someone telling you what to do and thinking for you.

If you know you are going to get the same as everyone else...why work hard?

Wouldn't a smart person then do as little work as possible?

It's not a progressive construct that does encourages growth, it encourages stagnation.


It sucks, it's lame, it's impossible to extricate from being forced and opressive...


Sorry Dan...you can't control everything and everyone...but you can go somewhere with like minded individuals(or trapped) and live that way to your hearts content...and leave everyone else the alone to do what they want.


I don't need 20 million people living at the same level as me to survive...I can do that with a fishing rod...

Why do you?

[whottt]

If Chavez knew how to make money he wouldn't have had to steal it...


He doesn't...and the only thing I see him doing is throwing Venezuela's Oil around and squandering it...

Good thing he's got the money to build up Venezuela's military while his people are in need.


Venezuela is totally dependent on Petroleum and thanks to Chavez taking them Commie...it will be that way until he is gone.

And he's gonna need that military to stay in power...at the expense of his people.

[smeagol]

The funny thing is that Chavez tried to seize power through a failed coup in the mid nineties.

[xrayzebra]

Anyone read the paper this morning about his Brother taking over
education. He boasted about teaching the children about all the
values of socialism. What a guy!

[johnsmith]

That's exactly where years of FED policy of easy money is taking us though. There are millions of families at risk of home foreclosure. There will be thousands of homes, once the over-burden of some unlucky smuck, that will sit empty. It's not hard to do the math.

It's not the governments fault that people bought houses on adjustable interest rate loans. People were short-sided and thought the low interest rates would remain that way forever and never really move, that's not how interest rates work though.

They shouldn't have tried to live beyond their means.

[Purple & Gold]

Thanx for finally answering my question. But it seems you are a little dishonest or just believe what you believe.

In the case of Pinochet, the human rights violations were very small.

Sounds like you are trivializing it here.

In the case of Videla, the human rights violations were many more than in the case of Pinochet, but as I have said many times, Argentina was going through a war.

And again here.

Both Pinochet and Videla rose to power because of one reason: to fight communism. They are the direct result of the people rising against a national threat that jeopardized the fabric of their societies.

Sounds like you are saying it's OK because they were fighting communism.

And again, Pinochet helped the Chile's insertion into the world (something most of LatAm is far from achieving).

I don't believe in the ends justify the means.

Let me ask you a question: is Bush worst than Chavez because there are abuses and human rights violations in Iraq and Gitmo?

I would like to see Bush impeached and possibly tried for war crimes depending on what he knew, when he knew it, what he knowingly lied about, and who he had knowingly lie for him. If it comes out that General Powell's speech was based on what they knew were lies, then I believe he should be tried. I also believe that condoning and allowing torture, as well as disregarding the Geneva Convention are all actions that are worthy of being tried for.

There are many human rights violation in Venezuela. Opposition candidates are being encacerated for no reason, there is no freedom of press, the opposition lives in fear because Chavez' mobs can attack you an minute, there is no separation of powers, Congress and the judiciary branch are totally controled by Chavez.

And that is the reason I don't support Castro or a government like China's. (Which by the way is now being described by many as Capitalist Communism. I'm sure you know the difference between communism and socialism.) I will look more into Chavez and see if he is incarcerating his political opponents and sending mobs to quiet anybody that speaks against him. Freedom of Press is also something I believe strongly in, but be careful what you classify a crime against humanity, because it can also be argued that Bush is trying to control the press and the Judiciary Branch.

And here is a quote from Videla, "One becomes a terrorist not only by killing with a weapon or setting a bomb but also by encouraging others through ideas that go against our Western and Christian civilization".

Not sure why you find the truth funny.

Again your assertion of that is ridiculous.

Huh? This is an empty phrase which, in the context of a complex civil war, means nothing.

Again this is were we see differently and why you are trivializing what happened in the past.

[Purple & Gold]

People who went missing in the 70s were not regular joes. Most were terrorists but some were simply Montonero sympathiers and innocent until proven guilty.

Again smeagol you are trying to rewrite history. Many of them were innocent. And don't forget what happened with many babies during that time.

[Purple & Gold]

The fact that he thinks the NBA is socialist should leave you beyond all doubt...not to mention him lecutring you on the stife of Argentines when he's never even lived there.

Come on now whottt, you recognize that their are many different forms of capitalism, but yet you don't recognize that their are many different forms of socialism.

You do realize that you are not speaking to a common Argentine. You are speaking to one of their elitists.

[whottt]

I would like to see Bush impeached and possibly tried for war crimes depending on what he knew, when he knew it, what he knowingly lied about, and who he had knowingly lie for him.


If it comes out that General Powell's speech was based on what they knew were lies, then I believe he should be tried.

Are we talking about Iraq?

Um Saddam violated the terms of a cease fire agreement, from that point a state of war existed...under any international law.

This doesn't even take into account the countless violations of the UN Sanctions.

The UN can't do ...we bankroll it, we supply the military for it...it is a corrupt ineffectual piece of .

I want the UN the out of the Unites States...I want them put smackdab in the heart of Lebanon.

I also believe that condoning and allowing torture, as well as disregarding the Geneva Convention are all actions that are worthy of being tried for.

Does it bother you that those we fight are not a signatory, don't adhere to the protocols and are not a recognized army?

And that is the reason I don't support Castro or a government like China's. (Which by the way is now being described by many as Capitalist Communism. I'm sure you know the difference between communism and socialism.

And I'm sure you don't...at least not the Marxist definitions...

Tell you what...

Why don't you tell us the differences...I want to see you explain this and still jock socialism...

Personally, I think you haven't got a ing clue what you are talking about.

By all means...explain to us the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Please...educate us.

[Purple & Gold]

Socialism is the ultimate form of selfishness...

It takes from others completely.

And that's right it fails, because everyone starts wanting a little bit more...corruption and socialism go hand in hand...and usually it's the biggest advocates and leaders that end up becoming corrupt.

Socialism is the Catholic Priest of Governments.


And it fails, not because humans are selfish, but because they are built to compete.


Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

And those that don't want to compete genrally don't want to work...so what ends up happening is the only ones carrying the weight in a Socialist Society are those that want no part of it. And even it's staunches advocates are the most competive...so in time they will change as well.

I disagree with everything you said there.

It sucks...I don't want to be a communal creature...I'm not a ing ant. I want to do what the I want to do and who is to say I am wrong for doing that, so long as I don't hurt anyone?

But yet you want other people to work like ants as long as it isn't you.

Who appointed Karl Marx my judge and jury?

And who appointed big business the ultimate judge on so many people around the world?

Why should someone that doesn't work as hard as I do have the same status?

Why are you so worried about status? That sounds a little selfish.

And all Chavez has done is ed Venezuela's economy.

Do you really believe this?

And Velik...the US isn't particularly worried about friends at this juncture, we are more concerned with a hostile ideology...why do you think we re-elected W?

You're not worried if the U.S. has friends at this juncture. Many people are. I would say the most recent election proves that. I'd also say Bush's reelection was very, very close. Too bad nobody decided to look more closely into it during the time.

[whottt]

Come on now whottt, you recognize that their are many different forms of capitalism, but yet you don't recognize that their are many different forms of socialism.

Um...you don't seem to recognize that Chavez is an admitted marxist like Castro, like Stalin, like Lennin...like Kim Jong Il.

There is only one definion for Marxists...don't let the fact that none of them have been capable of achieving his definition of the terms confuse you.

He's a Marxist and there is only one definition...

I want you to tell us what it is....I want you to tell us the differences.

Educate us.

You do realize that you are not speaking to a common Argentine. You are speaking to one of their elitists.

I realize that I am speaking with a man who has an electic political view, at least by American standards, and who has taken more pileons on this forum for being a commie liberal than you have...

I am speaking with a guy who I have blasted on more than one occasion for his views...

I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.

I am speaking with a guy who is anti-bush, anti-war, pro feed the world...

That's why I find it extraordinarily amusing that you have labeled him an elitist.

He's only conservative by the extreme left's definion of the world.

To tell you the truth...I've never seem get as offended towards anyone as he has towards you.

And I think you are the one coming off as the elitist.

You think you can throw a label on him and win an argument, you are mistaken.

[Purple & Gold]

Are we talking about Iraq?

Um Saddam violated the terms of a cease fire agreement, from that point a state of war existed...under any international law.

This doesn't even take into account the countless violations of the UN Sanctions.

The UN can't do ...we bankroll it, we supply the military for it...it is a corrupt ineffectual piece of .

But yet Saddam had finally agreed to everything and the whole world was on our side. He couldn't scratch his ass without the whole world knowing, but yet George Bush sold the war on the fact that he had weapons of mass destruction and that an attack was very likely to be imminent. Why did he feel the need to do this?

I want the UN the out of the Unites States...I want them put smackdab in the heart of Lebanon.

Yes I know how you and your type thinks. God forbid that we try to have an organization that would rather see diplomacy rather than war.

Does it bother you that those we fight are not a signatory, don't adhere to the protocols and are not a recognized army?

Again the same weak argument I've always heard. If it's a war on terror, are they not considered a POW?

And I'm sure you don't...at least not the Marxist definitions...

Tell you what...

Why don't you tell us the differences...I want to see you explain this and still jock socialism...

Personally, I think you haven't got a ing clue what you are talking about.

By all means...explain to us the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Please...educate us.

I really don't have the time to educate you. It will take way too long. And being that you are ignorant and already have your mind made up, I'm sure it will be a lost cause. I already know that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

[whottt]

I disagree with everything you said there.

But yet you want other people to work like ants as long as it isn't you.

I do?

Prove that....

And who appointed big business the ultimate judge on so many people around the world?

I don't see big business judging anyone...I see you judging big business.

Why are you so worried about status? That sounds a little selfish.

Why are you?

You know what sounds selfish to me? You advocating a political belief that must forced upon me by a minority.

You telling me how I should live my life sounds selfish...

Do you really believe this?

You're not worried if the U.S. has friends at this juncture.

If by friends you mean the UN, Germany, France, Russia, China and most of the tin pot dictators in the Middle Eeast and wannabe's in Latin America...

no...I don't care. Those countries are ...they have drug us twice in to world wars, or stood idly by while we fought them...they are the reason we became the SuperPower we are...and now they just simply resent it.

Many people are. I would say the most recent election proves that. I'd also say Bush's reelection was very, very close. Too bad nobody decided to look more closely into it during the time.

And I'd say that Bush was not a poular candidate with anyone...he was just the lesser of to ty candidates to the majority of Americans.

The fact that Democrats somehow have convinced themselves that the closeness of the last election was somehow a victory only underscores the clueless ness of the party...


Would you consider nearly beating the Celtics a moral victory? Or a failure to beat a ty team?

2004 was a failure to beat a ty team, by being a ter team.


When you consider that Bush actually lose the popular vote on 2000 and went on to be the first president of that type to win re-election, not only winning, but winning by a majority and recieving more votes than any candidate in history...

No, you guys didn't almost win...

You made this years Celtics look like the 97 Bulls is what you did...


There was no moral victory in 04...Bush backed into it thanks to the Democratic Party's extreme leftward shift...

[Purple & Gold]

Um...you don't seem to recognize that Chavez is an admitted marxist like Castro, like Stalin, like Lennin...like Kim Jong Il.

There is only one definion for Marxists...don't let the fact that none of them have been capable of achieving his definition of the terms confuse you.

He's a Marxist and there is only one definition...

Again as I said before, I don't agree with everything he stands for. But do not try to paint him as some type of dictator or way worse than other dictators that were in Latin America.

I realize that I am speaking with a man who has an electic political view, at least by American standards, and who has taken more pileons on this forum for being a commie liberal than you have...

I realize this is a forum where most people are from the George Bush's state, but I didn't realize it was this far to the right. Of course I'm not talking about the democrats in this forum that own the repubs daily.

I am speaking with a guy who I have blasted on more than one occasion for his views...

And your point is?

I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.

I find that hard to believe, but I guess I could be wrong about that.

I am speaking with a guy who is anti-bush, anti-war, pro feed the world...

Something that I agree with him about.

That's why I find it extraordinarily amusing that you have labeled him an elitist.

He's only conservative by the extreme left's definion of the world.

And he's only liberal by the extreme rights way of thinking.

To tell you the truth...I've never seem get as offended towards anyone as he has towards you.

Maybe cause I hit a little close to home.

And I think you are the one coming off as the elitist.

Well I think it's been shown that your opinions don't mean .

You think you can throw a label on him and win an argument, you are mistaken.

So you continue to ignore the information that has been provided.

Funny how this, "I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.", doesn't apply to you at all. But yet you find it to be a strong attribute.

[whottt]

But yet Saddam had finally agreed to everything and the whole world was on our side. He couldn't scratch his ass without the whole world knowing, but yet George Bush sold the war on the fact that he had weapons of mass destruction and that an attack was very likely to be imminent. Why did he feel the need to do this?

Since he knew Saddam didn't have them, you tell me...because he wanted to look like an idiot I guess?

Why did Kerry, Clinton, Annan, Chirac and everyone else say Saddam had WMD or was working towards them...before Bush was even in office?






The whole world was never on our side...

France had all the development deals for Iraq's Oilfields after the sanctions were lifted.

Germany, Russia and China were all reciving subsidized Oil in the OFF program.




Why would he say there were WMD when he knew there weren't?

Once we entered the country, why not plant evidence to prove Saddam did have WMD?


The fact is everyone thought he had them and then political opportunism took over...

Chirac rode Anti-US Sentiment to re-election...Kerry tried to ride Anti-Bush sentiment to the whitehouse...

Kerry sat on the ing intelligence committe for nearly 20 years...and he was saying the same thing(until Howard Dean started pulling ahead of him).


And on top of all this...how can anyone be so stupid as to think there is no way Saddam didn't have them...we only gave him 3 months to get rid of anything...with no inspectors in Iraq.

Yes I know how you and your type thinks. God forbid that we try to have an organization that would rather see diplomacy rather than war.

The UN is just about the most elitist organization in the world and it's only goal is supeceding the US as the World's police...something they are incapable of doing, militarilily, ecnomically...

They are nothing but a shank ass for anyone with a set of balls.

They are a bunch of spoiled aristocratic diplomats...

Again the same weak argument I've always heard. If it's a war on terror, are they not considered a POW?

It's not a weak argument...it's the protocols of the geneva convention...

Do you think spies benefit from the Conventions?

What about a group of US Special Forces operating covertly and without official sanction?

You think those mother ers get the benefits of the Geneva Convention?

By any country?

I really don't have the time to educate you. It will take way too long. And being that you are ignorant and already have your mind made up, I'm sure it will be a lost cause. I already know that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

And I think you are simply an idiot for selling yourself as some kind of peace nik while at the same time espousing a form government that has been proven time and time again as the most brutal, opressive and inhumane system of governance in the 20th century.

A system where people literally die trying to escape it...in virtually every country it's practiced...

And I also don't think you have a ing clue on what Socialism is....

You never see a country go straight commie...it almost always goes Socialist first.

The idea is to take a little freedom and independence at a time...not all at once...only the biggest idiots would allow that to happen.