You realize if we do a trade with Seattle and wind up with Wilkins or Gelabale you are going to get owned...
I don't believe for a second they did it for a second round pick. If you think teams were as high on Butler as you are wouldn't they have more than matched the offer the Spurs got for Scola and Butler from the Rockets? Or do you think the Spurs turned down better offers for those two because they wanted to help the Rockets out?
How come the Bobcats weren't interested?
Any better offers required the Spurs to take back salary. They didn't want to do that. They wanted the $$$. And the $$$ saved with the trade with Houston was more valuable to them than a first rounder, or so they believed.
timvp isn't high on Butler or Scola, and he hasn't ever been really...he's so full of crap it's not even funny...
He's pissed because A.He hates the Rockets and still sweats 95 and B. He wanted more. and finally...C. GhostWriter no longer posts on the forum.
Huh?
Explain.
There were other teams with salary cap, with trade exceptions that could have done the deal. I mean we're talking about Butler, a guy with starting C potential right, and Scola as a throw in.
@ Ghostwriter card.
I've already explained why I disagreed with the trade. It was a combination of panicking and a money grab. My three main reasons why I don't like it:
1) Waiting until next summer and risking getting nothing > Getting nothing now.
2) You don't salary dump a player who is making less than half of the MLE with one year left on his contract. When in the history of the NBA has that happened? I can understand salary dumping Rasho or even Malik ... but a guy making $2.3???? That makes no sense. You don't sell low to the point that you get absolutely nothing in return just to get away from a nothing contract.
3) You don't give a divisional rival a trade in which there is absolutely no downside for them. The Rockets got a zero risk and potentially high reward trade. The Spurs got money that they may or may not use.
Because that'll mean the Sonics really weren't interested in Scola..or Butler...which is going to mean neither were the Spurs.
The Kings apparently wanted Butler and were offering something that it looks like the Spurs wanted, but that trade fell apart.
Scola was more difficult to trade (although he had more value) because first of all, the team who they traded him to already had to have a contract worked out with him. The deadline was coming up. Plus you'd have to be confident in your international scouting enough to give him lottery money pick off the boat.
The Rockets paid a big price for Butler and Scola. The thing is that price came in terms of money and not tangible basketball assets.
Did you miss the part where I said that Butler and Scola would make no sense for them because they are overloaded in those positions?
Now, yes, someone like Barry makes sense for them.
Their C's suck...
But they don't think their center suck. They think Robert Swift is awesome and that Sene is going to become a beast. The only one they probably think sucks is Petro.
The only one I see with starter's potential is Sene.
And Petro is the best one...
I have had everyone of those pieces of crap on my d-league roster...they all suck.
All three of them are 21-years-old. Patience, grasshoppah.
Centers don't peak that young. Centers, other than the best ones, can't even walk up the court and chew gum at the same time at that age.
You expect Butler, Swift, Petro and Sene to play like David Robinson. Even David Robinson, Jr. aka Francisco Elson couldn't an NBA rotation until he was 30.
^^ Damn, that was some hardcore ownage. Four hours later and still now response. I apologize
What the Jackie Butler experience should teach the Spurs is to stay away from projects. The coaching staff, the front office, the beat writers and the fans of the team won't allow a project to grow. Butler was the age of a rookie. He was the best player by far on the summer league team.
He was chubby and had some youthful indiscretions along the way so what do the Spurs do? The concoct the first salary dump in NBA history that consisted of a player making less than half the MLE with one year left on his contract. That's simply stunning.
I admit that Butler became a less than perfect fit for the Spurs with the continuance of the NBA getting smaller and smaller. We are coming off a year where a team that plays three point guards at the same time (the Bulls) swept a team with Shaquille O'Neal. The NBA got even smaller over the last year and that made Butler less of a long term fit.
When the Spurs signed Butler, the Heat were coming off of a championship. It appeared that perhaps small ball would just be a phase. Last year proved that if you can't defend against small ball, you can't win an NBA championship these days. If the Golden State Warriors would have had success the previous summer, the Spurs never would have signed Butler.
The game changed so Butler's future changed. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a decent to good prospect. And it doesn't change the fact that the Spurs are a poor team at developing talent.
In the Tim Duncan era, the only player the Spurs developed was Tony Parker. And even with him, the front office gave up on him at 21-years-old and wanted to bring in a replacement. They said Parker didn't practice hard enough. They said Parker didn't want it bad enough. They said Parker didn't have a good work ethic. Luckily, Jason Kidd didn't sign and the Spurs were forced to settle for Parker as their point guard.
Everyone other young player the Spurs have ever signed in the Tim Duncan era has been let go. Devin Brown? Bad work ethic. Stephen Jackson? Wasn't committed enough. Even Malik Rose who gave his heart and soul to the team was shipped out with his work ethic being questioned.
The Spurs expect to sign young players and have them act like a 37-year-old Steve Kerr or Danny Ferry. That just isn't the case. A 21-year-old Jackie Butler wasn't going to come in with a Jerome Kersey ruggedness. It's just not how it works.
Not being able to handle young player through the maturation process is a big reason why this team has yet to be able to repeat. Instead of using young player who are getting better and better, the Spurs rely on old vets to win rings. That's great but old gets older.
What developing youth did the 2000, 2004 and 2006 Spurs teams have aboard?
What the Spurs should learn from the Butler fiasco is to either learn how to manage youth throughout the maturation process or to just not even go with youth. While the first option is preferred, I don't think the coaches, front office or fans are built to let a player develop.
The better option is to just forget about young players. Go with the Ime Udoka types ... 30 years old so he's matured but still has some good years left. No use wasting energy on Butlers or Amir Johnsons because the Spurs won't see the potential out.
Plus, this team can't draft domestic talent if their life depended on it. They had the 33rd pick and selected possibly the worst player in the draft. I've watched a lot of summer league and I literally haven't seen a player drafted who was worse than Williams.
Stick with Udokas, Bowens, Obertos and the other ready made veterans who are grown and ready to produce.
As for youth: I hope they can get Mahinmi and Sanikidze over this summer. Just do it. The Kidze will be cheap enough - , they both will - and have the speed and skills to pass the eye test for what the Spurs need.
As for drafting: The Spurs suck at domestic scouting. They suck so bad it's astonishing. I was laughed at by some wiseacres at my response to our draft: "underwhelming." But that was it - Splitter was a good pick, especially since it came out that he has a clear buyout next summer. It was the Marcus Williams pick. There were 4-5 players, at least, I had pegged who were still on the board that I would have been very happy with. Instead, in the noisy bar, I leaned forward to try to make out what was said. Marcus Williams made little sense that high.
Derrick Byars
Josh McRoberts
Dominic McGuire
Glen Davis
Demetrius Nichols
and I probably would have taken Taurean Green, Chris Richards, and Reyshawn Terry above Williams.
Granted, a few of those didn't fit immediate needs (Big Baby, McRoberts), but I felt they were much better ideas.
, Kyrylo Fesenko is an aces interview and may actually turn out to be something. Why not him?
If the did they draft over right now, Marcus Williams wouldn't be drafted. Even if they extended it to three rounds, I doubt he'd get drafted.
I literally haven't seen a guy who was drafted that I'd take Williams over right now.
Let me try to think of one . . .
I DONT MIND LOSING BUTLER
but for god sakes PAY SCOLA the 3 years for 9 MILLION
and get rid of BARRYS 5 MIL
so now we will pay UDOKA, 3 years for 9
when we could pay SCOLA 3 years for 10 mil?
Hitting the jackpot. Rockets land Scola.
In an arena full of scouts and coaches, executives and media, there was a pretty good little buzz of conversation going around.
Luis Scola was traded. And though that name might not mean much to casual NBA fans, in this room, it's a pretty big chunk of news.
This guy can play. He plays with the intensity typical of those great Argentine teams he shared with Manu Ginobili, Andres Nocioni and Fabricio Oberto. He has a nice shot, a great feel for how to use it, and will defend with all hie's got. And in the five years since the Spurs drafted him, he has become a seasoned pro.
He's not a superstar. The Rockets did not just get an answer to Tim Duncan for a guy that swore he'd never play for them again, and a few add ons they'll never miss.
They got the rights to a guy teams have been trying to get from the Spurs for years.
The trick of course is signing him. But Daryl Morey was permitted to talk to Scola and left those conversations sure that Scola would be playing for the Rockets next season.
If he comes, this is a steal, a something for nothing trade.
He's not an All Star. But he is a terrific fit.
All things considered, this is an even better deal.
• • •
The Rockets might have gotten lucky for more than the obvious reasons.
The Spurs were working on a three-way deal with the Kings and Cavaliers that could have included Scola. When they fell through, they moved to the Rockets deal, dropping the Jackie Butler salary.
They could still get in on that, having moved further from the luxury tax. Or the Cavaliers and Kings could make it work without the Spurs, presumably involving Mike Bibby. But the Rockets got in and out before Scola's deadline with Tau Ceramica. And in a way, it did not cost them anyone that was going to contribute next season.
• • •
Another theory making the rounds -- ok, it's mine -- is that the Rockets are collecting guys named Luis. That makes Luis Scola, Luis Flores and Nelson Luis, the Rockets director of media relations.
Posted by Jonathan Feigen at July 12, 2007 10:11 PM
Comments
Thanks Jonathan for your insight! I never heard of the guy but I'm excited to hear the news...Rockets Fan
Posted by: Rockets Fan at July 12, 2007 10:31 PM
John, Great trade for the Rox. We get rid of "cry me a river, gimme my mommy" Vspan and get a true PF in Scola and backup C in Butler. When we do sign Scola, do we have to use the MLE to sign him? Would this mean we won't be signing a veteran PF like Joe Smith? Also is Morey working on more deals to acquire a veteran PF and trading away sura's contract, JL3, rafer, snyder, justin reed? Any word on Haslem for Rafer/Head? Great trade though and do you think Dennis Lindsey is playing undercover for the rox?
(They will use between $3 million and $3.5 million of the trade exception. I don't think they will use mid-level money on another forward. They can sign Chuck Hayes without using it. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: kevin at July 12, 2007 10:44 PM
I have got to say that Morey dod a very good job.
Jon what do you think our next move will be?
If this trades solves us the starting pf spot and we re-sign Chuck Hayes and Deke , How do you think we will use our trading assets like Snyder or Head , one of them will have to be 3rd stringe and they are too good for that.
Do you think there is a possibility we will trade Rafer and one of Luther or Snyder with fillers for an upgrade point gurad??Another power forward?
What direction are you guessing we will go if we sign Scola?
Thanks Jon.
(I don't know where they go from here after signing Hayes and probably Mutombo. They might look to move a contract or two. There are a lot of guys under contract. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Shay at July 12, 2007 10:46 PM
Great reporting, Jonathan. Here's my take:
If Scola turns out to be the real deal, Morey might have vindicated himself after drawing the wrath of many Rocket fans who couldn't believe he selected Aaron Brooks and Carl Landry in the draft. No one saw this deal coming. Kudos to Morey for pulling it off.
What's also amazing is that Morey carries very little risk of looking like a bad guy in dealing Spanoulis, who many still believe has great upside in the NBA. As you reported last week, Spanoulis said he wouldn't play in the U.S., even if he were traded to the Spurs and given the starting point guard job. So if he stays true to his word, Spanoulis won't haunt the Rockets in what "could have been."
And if Spanoulis changes his mind and decides to come back to the NBA, he will be a liar in the biggest sense of the word and will take Morey and the Rockets off the hook. Although I like Spanoulis and hated to see him give up so soon on his NBA career, I'm enjoying how Spanoulis and his agent have painted themselves in a corner with that statement about not even wanting to play for the Spurs.
So why would the Spurs do this deal? Probably to create additional cap space after the Spurs let Spanoulis out of his contract (they just signed backup PG Jacques Vaughn today), and the fact the Spurs couldn't offer a starting PF job to Scola like the Rockets because of a guy they already have a PF/Center named Tim Duncan.
Also, the Spurs already have a backup Argentinian PF in Oberto as you mentioned. I could see why Scola wouldn't want to be the third Argentinian on the Spurs (Manu Ginobili being the other one), stay out of their shadows, and make a name for himself on his own. It also probably didn't hurt that former Rockets' assistant GM Dennis Lindsey took an opportunity of a lifetime by accepting the Spurs' assistant GM job a few weeks ago. Lindsey and Morey get along well, so it probably made it easier to for them to communicate to do this deal.
Good job, Morey. It has been an up-and-down off-season. First, how the JVG firing was handled (downer). Then trading for Mike James (good). Then the 'questionable' draft of Brooks and Landry (downer?). Now the Scola-Spanoulis trade (good). I guess he's due for a downer.
Posted by: John at July 12, 2007 10:51 PM
I appreciate you going out on a limb with an emphatic endorsement of this trade. Some fans think it was a dumb move, but they did not know who parker, ginobli, or oberto were before they became famous. The Spurs have Duncan, they do not need Scola. We need him or a 4 like him. Great move! I don't think we are done either. It could be interesting if Stevie will play for the minimum, Rafer or lucas would have to go. I think fans are too hard on Skip. He might flourish in a wide open offense. As a season ticket holder, I am pleased. Go Rockets!
Posted by: astrowoody at July 12, 2007 10:53 PM
This is a big suprise but a nice one considering we get a really good power foward who has been under radar because he played the same spot as Tim Duncan, for someone who is a burden and a garbage for us. Considering that Scola is packaged together with Jackie Butler, 6-10 1/2 22yo c/f, is just like an icing to the cake. We still have bullets on Head, Snyder, JL3, who can be used for another trade.
Jon, a couple of question for you, after Milicic is rejected out of Orlando, where will he be going to? Can Rocket still pursue him? Then, with Scola, is he definitely will be coming to play for Rocket this coming season or not?
(Memphis. And Scola is not definite, but sounds probable. -- Jonathan),/i>
Posted by: BondieBoy at July 12, 2007 10:53 PM
VIVA SCOLA!!! Ole ole ole ole..ole..ole!!!
Posted by: Paul Sensei at July 12, 2007 10:54 PM
Hey, so I saw the "Vegas Jackpot" thread too late to post in it, but I did put this in the "Free Agent Fireworks" thread:
"Jonathan,
Is Luis Scola a possibility?
(I like Scola's game a lot, and he would fit the Rockets well. But the Spurs being the Spurs, what do the Rockets have to offer in a trade that the Spurs could use? -- Jonathan)
Posted by: ham at July 4, 2007 02:00 PM"
So basically, I think that I should get props. Thanks!
(I think we have a winner, unless someone had the other half. . -- Jonathan)
Posted by: ham at July 12, 2007 10:56 PM
I feel like Dennis Lindsey returns the Rockets a favor. The Spurs have options to trade Scola's rights to some eastern teams but they trade Scola to their division rival. Maybe the Rockets give what the Spurs want - immediate cap room. Not a bad trade from both side. It's a win-win situation. If Scola turns out to be 14/8, then the Rockets win even more.
Posted by: andrew at July 12, 2007 10:56 PM
One last thing. This is a great trade even if Billy plays back-up point for the Spurs,but he won't.
Posted by: astrowoody at July 12, 2007 10:57 PM
hey jonathan what type of play is Luis Scola i mean i read ur blog is he like a better Anderson Varejao does he have a shot can he hit jumpers
(Yes, he is a solid shooter. Not great range, but can't be left open to double. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Rocketman at July 12, 2007 11:02 PM
Looks like people are excited about this....so YIIIIIPPPPPPPIIIIEEEE!
Thanks Morey, you've made me a die hard fan of the Rockets all over again! Vote of confidence.
Posted by: Aaron at July 12, 2007 11:04 PM
hey jonathan do you think the rockets are done looking for deals for a power foward and how much Scola will get paid
(Yes, I do. And I'd think between $3 million and $3.5 million. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: The Champ at July 12, 2007 11:08 PM
This is simply an amazing trade. Very low risk, with a huge reward if Scola comes over and performs like expected.
Jonathan what do you think the Rockets do next, besides moving JL3, and the retirement of Sura.
Posted by: Brad at July 12, 2007 11:13 PM
Great deal. On paper he is a starter now for us.
If we dared, do we trade some of our PG's for another back-up PF and sign Stevie Franchise? He is dribble and penetrate guy we need.
And maybe Rick can fix the ball hog.
Posted by: Cody at July 12, 2007 11:15 PM
John
Would you say that this is the best realistic deal they could have gotten at the PF position. I mean considering all of the possible trades and free agent signings?
(Yes, I can't think of one that brings a as solid a player without taking on age or a bad contract. As far as free agents, I'm not sure because it seems they could not have gotten the better forwards. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Uriel at July 12, 2007 11:17 PM
Have heard good things about Scola from sites for quite a while. Question is, what would entice the Spurs to trade a player like Scola to a division rival?
(Cost cutting. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Ian at July 12, 2007 11:24 PM
I like the deal. so what else do we need in order to take out the champs? I think with the new coach were primed an ready to go the distance.
Posted by: Quiet at July 12, 2007 11:25 PM
YES!!!
I love it.
B
Posted by: Brandon at July 12, 2007 11:26 PM
Very true Jonathan, but give this guy some more credit. This guy is a "powerhouse" forward among other forwards. He's aggressive to the basket, has no fear & dunks on people w/raw power. Houston is going to fall in love w/this guy quickly.I was wondering myself why no one has drafted this guy until I heard he was under contract w/ San Antonio. Awesome trade Morey...I feel much better about Vspan now. This was a 2002 article I found on the internet on Espn. Look at what Popovich says about Scola:
Are you ready for the next Manu Ginobili? That's what NBA insiders are talking about the night before the NBA Draft, and it's a name Spurs fans have heard before.
Luis Scola, the stud power forward who played with Manu on Argentina's Olympic team. The Spurs drafted Scola in the second round in 2002.
"Luis Scola almost certainly will be a better NBA player than anyone who will be drafted Tuesday night," said Skip Bayless on ESPN.com. "Think Manu at power forward. Scola attacks the glass the way Manu attacks the rim."
That makes it sound like Scola is a lock to play here next year. But is that accurate? Only we got the inside scoop from Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich.
"We haven't made the final decisions yet. If we did sign him, what he is, is a very, very heady player. He's probably the best forward in Europe right now," Pop told us. "He's more like Malik than he is like Robert Horry. Although, he's a decent mid-range shooter. What he is is a worker, a rebounder, great hands. He can score under the bucket at about 6'9". He's like Manu. He knows how to play. He knows how to win."
Okay, so nothing definite, but it sounds pretty good. Pop also says the Spurs want to try and trade up in the draft.
Posted by: Jay Reeves at July 12, 2007 11:26 PM
Jon,
If he stays in Spain, Morey's going to be the Timmy P of basketball. Why didn't they just draft a PF or big man instead of going for another notch on the depth chart in their deepest position of combo guard? That seemed to be a no brainer to draft Big Baby, Alando Tucker, or someone with size rather than add to the congestion. The only way out of this dilemma is to trade Rafer to someone for a big stiff.
Posted by: Will at July 12, 2007 11:27 PM
Wow what an amazing deal for the Rockets. I inquired about him awhile back before the draft. I am really suprised the Spurs didnt try to sign him. They are getting really long in the tooth at their big positions. Granted he is an undersized PF.
The deal does seem slightly lopsided for the Spurs unless they plan they did not think highly of him recently or are dumping Salary for no apparent reason. They do not have luxury tax concerns, right?
With this deal do you think the Rockets will still try to move Sura's contract with another PG to add depth to the power positions to a team over the luxury tax? What teams over luxury tax do you see as viable trading partners?
Posted by: Bryan at July 12, 2007 11:28 PM
So why would the spurs do this deal at all, do they really need to free up some cap space or do they actually think spanoulis might play for them?
And was it necessary for the rockets to acquire Butler as well, it seems like we're getting quite a bit roster fillers now with guys like Butler and Reed.
(Cost cutting for the Spurs. If the Rockets did not take Butler, the Spurs would not do it. That's how they cut costs -- Jonathan)
Posted by: mick at July 12, 2007 11:28 PM
I guess Morey knew what he was talking about there are 'better value players in trades than in free agency'. His first few moves as GM have been clever and economical. Now we need Francis for bench duty...
Posted by: Mitc at July 12, 2007 11:30 PM
Jonathan,
Are you sure Luis Scola will play for the Rockets next season? Otherwise it means nothing for the Rockets.
(Morey sounded pretty certain. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Daniel at July 12, 2007 11:37 PM
Where did this come from!?! Morey pulled this one out of a hat. I live in Ohio and I'm alway's on the web waiting for a smidget of Rockets news, and this is just the kind of news I been waiting for. I've been kind of wanting a player from oversea's to get in there and ruff it up a little and score, and we get on of the best. Kudos!! I've also been watching the Rockets summerleague, and once again I'm impressed! I look forward to scoring more point's than last year and more win's over the top team's! Go Rockets!!!!
Posted by: Chaney at July 12, 2007 11:40 PM
I'd ask for a few more details, like "what would the Spurs want with a so-far-ineffective player that doesn't want to come back to the US?" , but I'm guessing you're probably making an article about the entire situation now.
Anyway, this is fantastic news. Highlight of my day so far. I couldn't think of a better deal that could have realistically been made. Thanks for the heads-up Mr. Feigen.
Posted by: Butch at July 12, 2007 11:41 PM
I've not seen too much of Luis, but recently youtubed a few clips. What player does he remind you of in the NBA? and what role will he play with the rockets?
do you think v-span will play for the spurs?
Posted by: nathan at July 12, 2007 11:44 PM
Wow, I love the way Luis Scola plays.He dunks and blocks and is a very aggresive and high energy guy, love it. Good bye Cry baby Spanoulisa. Daryl Morey is proving quite the man for GM. Do you think we can still land Steve Francis and trade Rafer alston for another high energy guy.
Posted by: David Stoneking at July 12, 2007 11:47 PM
I have seen Scola play a couple of times and in 2004.He is a good player and fits in the offense(Argentina runs a movement and screen offense much like Adelmans). But I must admit he is not the answer at the 4....It is definately a smart move...but Scola is not going to take us to the next level....Why wouldn't webber want to play for his old coach? He knows the offense and had his best years under Adelman....I am still hoping that we land Francis next week.
Posted by: frank at July 12, 2007 11:51 PM
Scola now still has a contract which has a high buyout.that is 3 million bucks,but the league confines the highest buyout only half million.
could Morey deal with this stuff?
(They would likely structure the contract to allow Scola to pay the rest of the buyout from his first-year salary. -- Jonathan)
Posted by: Roe at July 13, 2007 12:03 AM
Jon,
Scola sounds terrific, praise for him seems universal, but I'm curious about his Euro League accomplishments. This guy has won two of the last three MVPs over there, but averages under 30 minutes a game (see link)? In fact, he's never averaged over 30 minutes a game.
Any thoughts on that? Is that a Euro League quirk, like that 6'7" all-world PG coming off the bench?
Thanks,
Michael
http://www.euroleague.net/compe io...ayer?pcode=AJG
Okay, I'd draft Marcus Williams over Jared Jordan. Jordan has looked horrible when I watched him. He's unathletic compared to WNBA players. He can't get his shot off versus anyone and isn't even that outstanding of a passer.
So that's one person I'd take Williams over. I'm trying to think of a second one . . .
I don't have much disagreement, so I will only comment that the Rose example is a poor one, as when he was traded he was already 30 years old and in the midst of his eighth season as a Spur so he can't really qualify as a project/youngster that they gave up on.
The Spurs got clobbered by Houston. What a laughable deal.
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