Duncan>Hakeem.

[JamStone]

I'll distract from the flaws in my logic by trying to insult people that point them out. Poorly.

Distract from what???

It's already been established that you can't read properly, and then you make up things.

What else is there?

I write: "Hall of Famer and former MVP."

And, you respond by thinking that means: "All star caliber."

It doesn't get any more obvious that from that example alone, you are a moron who cannot read properly.

So, you go on and beat a dead horse saying Ralph Sampson put up similar numbers to David Robinson, AGAIN avoiding the point I made that David Robinson had about 7 more accomplished seasons when Duncan joined the Spurs than Sampson had when Hakeem joined the Rockets. 10 years apart versus 2-3 years apart. You fail to even touch that point of my argument because you cannot refute it. The mentoring of a well-established Hall of Fame type veteran versus a great player with only one NBA season under his belt.

And, I'm the one distracting? You avoid a point altogether.

And, moreover, you still fail to admit that Hall of Fame/League MVP is not the same thing as all star caliber.

Shrek is looking for you,

[JamStone]

i dont see how rockets fans can claim the nba was tougher in the 1990's, on the contrary, the 90's was very weak in compe ion compared to the 80's...and while I think the 90's and 2000's are close in terms of overall compe ion, all the talent was in the west for the spurs run, and a majority of it was in the east for the rockets run. plus the rockets never had to play the bulls.

In the 90s, besides Chicago, what teams made the East have the majority of the talent in the NBA??? New York? That's about it. The Pistons and the Celtics were both done by 1991. The West had the Malone and Stockton Jazz, the Payton/Kemp Sonics, and the Charles Barkley/KJ/Majerle Suns, a Portland Blazers team that went to the Finals twice as well. And, don't forget Run TMC and later the Webber/Sprewell Golden State Warrior teams. The East didn't have more talent in the 90s. The East had Michael Jordan. After that, you might argue Patrick Ewing and the Knicks. But, after that, what other teams? I don't agree the majority of the talent in the NBA was in the East for the Rockets run. It just had one ultimate roadblock talent in Michael Jordan.

And, moreover, the 90s didn't have the dilution of talent the 2000s have had from expansion. 27 NBA teams in 1993-95. After 1995, there were 29 teams. Talent spread out thinner. More rosters with less talent towards the end of the bench. Michael Jordan being gone in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95 definitely helped the Rockets. But, compe ion was still relatively tough ... in the WESTERN CONFERENCE ... with less talent-diluted rosters.

[Roxsfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

Of all people, Spur fans should know better than to underrate Olajuwon like this.

how embarassing for David Robinson. Complete and utter domination.

[Roxsfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqp...elated&search=

.

great clip!

[kingmalaki]

While I admit that I am a Rockets homer, I really don't see how this is even debatable. Ok, well I see how it is debatable but I don't see how many would pick Timmy. Through ten seasons the majority of Hakeem's numbers are better than Duncan's.

Hakeem:
23.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 3.6 bpg, 3.2 topg, 52%, 71%

Duncan
22.1 ppg, 12.04 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.71 spg, 2.48 bpg, 2.9 topg, 50%, 69%

The only thing y'all have to rely on is the rings argument. Yes, Duncan has won more but he has NEVER played on a scrub team. He has never had to go through a rebuilding phase because his front office hit with the Parker and Manu picks. When I say rebuilding I mean losing a considerable amount of talent and not replacing it. Duncan's surrounding talent has been in at least the top third of the league every season.

As knowledgable Spurs fans I'm sure y'all know how hard it is to win with a great center if he has no help since Robinson played a good chunk of his career in the same situation. When Hakeem came into the league he had help on his squads and was leading his team to the Finals in his 2nd season (going through the LA dynasty and against the Parish/McHale/Bird/Walton frontline by the way). When the help was gone (due to injuries and drug suspensions) the winning stopped, but he was still getting his team to the playoffs. He got help again and won.

Hakeem's numbers are better than Duncan's on both sides of the ball. He was a more dynamic scorer and better defender. He was a better athlete (he could run guards down from behind) and controlled the lane better even though he didn't have a shut-down perimiter defender on his team (i.e. Bowen). He won with less help (1 season that is). He won against better compe ion (and didn't have a David Robinson to guard the stud big-man on the other side of the court...yes, he put up better numbers than Timmy against better centers and he had to work them on both ends). He had a higher peak (granted Duncan still has time to get there but I predict that he won't). The only thing in Duncan's favor is "he won more" (against weaker compe ion, in an easier league, with more talent).

Honestly, is there any Spurs le team that you think Olajuwon would not win a championship on? Please name one?? If you replace Hakeem with Duncan I don't think we win in 94 or 95. We won les those seasons because Dream went bezerk on frontlines of Ewing/Oakley/Mason, Robinson/Rodman, Shaq/Grant. I'm not discrediting what the rest of the team did, but if Dream is not going nuts down there then we aren't winning. Not only was he lighting them up offensively, but he had to guard all of those dudes on the other end of the court. Duncan has never had to do that. In the playoffs Duncan has had to hold a good offensive big-man one time and that big-man averaged 30 a game (I don't consider Dirk to be a real big man). Every other time he faced a quality one (and the only other was Shaq) he had someone else checking him defensively. This is why I can't see us winning in 94 or 95 with Timmy. He has never had to really dominate another big on both ends of the court....

I have only been watching ball since the 80's but I have rarely seen a player play at that level (MJ, Dream, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Isiah off the top of the dome). I have seen Duncan have to work harder to get points against defenders like the Wallace boys and McDyess, Kurt Thomas, Camby/Nene, etc. I don't see him going in kill mode like I have seen Dream or those other players do.

I do think Duncan is the best PF to play the position, but I don't think he has reached the level of Kareem or Hakeem yet (I didn't see Wilt or Russell play). I just think both of those players would easliy win in the same situation...there is nothing Duncan can do that they can't. I give him the advantage over Shaq because he brings it on defense...but even Shaq's peak was higher.

[bobbyjoe]

Exactly why would I expect that? Also, I don't even necessarily buy into the entire "Hakeem's peak was higher than Duncan's" rationale. Did Olajuwon ever come two blocks shy of a quadruple double in a Finals closeout game? (I realize that in of itself doesn't resolve the debate, but I couldn't let that go, either.)

Charles Barkley certainly thinks Duncan is the better player, although he never played on the Spurs (of course).

It's pretty funny you bring this up given that Hakeem is one of 4 players along with David Robinson to ever have recorded a quad double. In fact, the same month he had a 2nd quad double which was later rescinded by the NBA who took back one assist. So Hakeem came one assist shy of having 2 quadruple doubles in one month.

[TheAuthority]

Through ten seasons the majority of Hakeem's numbers are better than Duncan's.

Hakeem:
23.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 3.6 bpg, 3.2 topg, 52%, 71%

Duncan
22.1 ppg, 12.04 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.71 spg, 2.48 bpg, 2.9 topg, 50%, 69%"

Garnett has better numbers than Duncan. Is he better than Duncan? No. I think it's universally understood by now that Duncan is the superior player to Garnett. Numbers have a lot more to do with system. You go on to later say that Hakeem didn't have a lockdown perimeter defender. Thus, he would have more opportunity for shot blocks. The only clear advantage he has is steals. Duncan could easily average 26-30 points a game if he was given the touches. He's unselfish. He makes everyone else better, he doesn't say I need X amount of touches per game. Whereas if you passed the ball to Hakeem, you weren't getting it back.

"The only thing y'all have to rely on is the rings argument. Yes, Duncan has won more but he has NEVER played on a scrub team. He has never had to go through a rebuilding phase because his front office hit with the Parker and Manu picks. When I say rebuilding I mean losing a considerable amount of talent and not replacing it. Duncan's surrounding talent has been in at least the top third of the league every season."

Um, I'd say that's a pretty big argument. Considering les are the most important thing in the NBA. It's real easy to blame supporting cast. I've seen it done countless times with Garnett supporters.

"As knowledgable Spurs fans I'm sure y'all know how hard it is to win with a great center if he has no help since Robinson played a good chunk of his career in the same situation. When Hakeem came into the league he had help on his squads and was leading his team to the Finals in his 2nd season (going through the LA dynasty and against the Parish/McHale/Bird/Walton frontline by the way). When the help was gone (due to injuries and drug suspensions) the winning stopped, but he was still getting his team to the playoffs. He got help again and won."

Yep, blame his teammates again. Nice excuses. I don't care WHO you put on Duncan's team. You can take 4 players from the YMCA and Duncan is still not missing the playoffs. Something you conveniently omitted when you say "he was still getting his team to the playoffs". No, he wasn't. He missed the playoffs. Something Duncan has never done, and will never do... no matter what teammates he is playing with.

"He won against better compe ion (and didn't have a David Robinson to guard the stud big-man on the other side of the court...yes, he put up better numbers than Timmy against better centers and he had to work them on both ends). He had a higher peak (granted Duncan still has time to get there but I predict that he won't). The only thing in Duncan's favor is "he won more" (against weaker compe ion, in an easier league, with more talent)."

Not really. The West is stronger now than it's ever been. Nice try, though. And if you want to talk about peak... I don't recall Hakeem ever putting up a damn near quadruple double in the Finals.

"I have seen Duncan have to work harder to get points against defenders like the Wallace boys and McDyess, Kurt Thomas, Camby/Nene, etc. I don't see him going in kill mode like I have seen Dream or those other players do."

ROFL @ the "Wallace boys"... you mean in the finals... when he lead them to a game 7 victory on 2 bad wheels? Oh, that one. Good example. Kurt Thomas? I love this one, especially. Duncan was shooting like 8 for 8 from the field and the announcers are like... Duncan is working very hard for his points, Kurt Thomas is playing excellent defense. Meanwhile the guy hasn't missed a shot. Yeah, stellar defense there. 100% FG% is rough.

"there is nothing Duncan can do that they can't."

Really? So Hakeem won 4 championships then? Had the highest winning % in sports since entering the league? Made first team all-nba his first 9 years in the league? Won 3 finals MVP's? I can keep going... but I'll stop to save your boy the embarrassment.

</win>

Who's next?

[j1nsa]

Dream was a great player, all the other great centers put up similar numbers. What seperated Dream was his magical playoff series in 94-95. If he didn't have that run, he would just be another great center. Duncan doesn't need to put those same numbers up during the regular season, he does have supporting cast, if he didn't then his numbers would be a lot higher. If Duncan had David's athleticism, then we can quit this discussion long time ago. Just like they compare the old and the new, we will never know. The center position is gone compared to the ones in the past, but come on, Ewing, Mutombo, great? You can say Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq in that era, that's about it.

[TheAuthority]

Dream was a great player, all the other great centers put up similar numbers. What seperated Dream was his magical playoff series in 94-95. If he didn't have that run, he would just be another great center. Duncan doesn't need to put those same numbers up during the regular season, he does have supporting cast, if he didn't then his numbers would be a lot higher. If Duncan had David's athleticism, then we can quit this discussion long time ago. Just like they compare the old and the new, we will never know. The center position is gone compared to the ones in the past, but come on, Ewing, Mutombo, great? You can say Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq in that era, that's about it.

I'm glad Duncan doesn't have great athleticism anymore. And yes, he did have good athleticism at one point, before his surgery. I think it will help him play into his late 30's and possibly even longer, if his body holds up, and he still has the desire. He doesn't rely on athleticism. He could play for a real long time.

[bobbyjoe]

Dream was a great player, all the other great centers put up similar numbers. What seperated Dream was his magical playoff series in 94-95. If he didn't have that run, he would just be another great center. Duncan doesn't need to put those same numbers up during the regular season, he does have supporting cast, if he didn't then his numbers would be a lot higher. If Duncan had David's athleticism, then we can quit this discussion long time ago. Just like they compare the old and the new, we will never know. The center position is gone compared to the ones in the past, but come on, Ewing, Mutombo, great? You can say Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq in that era, that's about it.

Ewing is a top 10 Center of all time and a perennial 20/10 player. You may think he's overrated, but he's still a HOF caliber center with a great resume.

Put him in today's NBA and he's easily, easily the best Center in the league and he was #4 in the 90's and Mourning wasn't far behind him.

You ignored a bunch of very solid bigmen from that era. Barkley, Karl Malone, Kareem, Parish (late 80's), Alonzo Mourning, Vlade Divac, Brad Daugherty, Arvydas Sabonis, Sam Perkins, Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley, Sam Perkins. There were a uva lot less stiffs around than now inside. The league is just a lot more perimeter oriented now than in that time.

And a lot of today's big's like Dirk, KG, and Jermaine O'Neal play like small forwards and not in the post. Even Amare isnt a traditional back to the basket player at all. Duncan, Shaq, and Yao are your more traditional post players now and hopefully Oden can add to that mix, but Yao has his limitations and Shaq, sadly, is on the latter half of his career.

The quality of post play in the 80's and 90's was a lot more physical and compe ive than now. You wont find many basketball fans who watched both those days and then now seriously debate that.

[my2sons]

Not only did duncan have the supporting cast, he has the talent to raise the level of play of his supporting cast. I know hakeem was a great player and the rockets got lucky with mj's retirement party, but i can't remember how unselfish hakeem was. the thing with duncan is that his ego does not need to be the focal point on the floor, he knows when to give up the rock and when to take over. factoring in homerism, i give the slightest edge to duncan because he makes has made his teamates better his whole career, not two seasons.

[ambchang]

Ewing is a top 10 Center of all time and a perennial 20/10 player. You may think he's overrated, but he's still a HOF caliber center with a great resume.

Put him in today's NBA and he's easily, easily the best Center in the league and he was #4 in the 90's and Mourning wasn't far behind him.

You ignored a bunch of very solid bigmen from that era. Barkley, Karl Malone, Kareem, Parish (late 80's), Alonzo Mourning, Vlade Divac, Brad Daugherty, Arvydas Sabonis, Sam Perkins, Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley, Sam Perkins. There were a uva lot less stiffs around than now inside. The league is just a lot more perimeter oriented now than in that time.

And a lot of today's big's like Dirk, KG, and Jermaine O'Neal play like small forwards and not in the post. Even Amare isnt a traditional back to the basket player at all. Duncan, Shaq, and Yao are your more traditional post players now and hopefully Oden can add to that mix, but Yao has his limitations and Shaq, sadly, is on the latter half of his career.

The quality of post play in the 80's and 90's was a lot more physical and compe ive than now. You wont find many basketball fans who watched both those days and then now seriously debate that.

I guess this is one of the rare things we can agree on in this thread.
Hakeem did have better compe ion in the post in the 80's and 90's, and there really is no comparison. If Mourning in his prime was playing today, he would be the undisputed #1, and he didn't even make any all-nba teams back then.

However, teams were not that strong in the 90s. Yes, they didn't have weakass teams like the Nets, the 6ers or the Cavs representing the finals, but the reason is because the two best teams always meet in the finals back then.

The Spurs had to go through the 3-peat Lakers, a loaded Trailblazer team to win the le. The Suns and the Mavs were not-championship caliber when the Spurs beat them, but they were a good team nonetheless. Then there are teams that the Spurs never played/beat at their peak in the playoffs, like the Kings, the Wolves in 04, and the Jazz of the late 90s.

Duncan and Hakeem takes their teams on their backs very differently. Hakeem chose to take over games by doing everything, while Duncan leads his team by doing things that his team needs. There is no denying that Duncan is more versatile than Hakeem when it comes to winning, and does not need a team that is built in a specific mode.

Finally, the Spurs DID rebuild, 2003 was supposedly the rebuilding year, neither Parker and Ginobili came of age, and Robinson was on his last legs. Stephen Jackson was the #2 on the team offensively, and the Spurs still managed to dethrone the 3-peat Lakers and win the championship.

[Reggie Miller]

It's pretty funny you bring this up given that Hakeem is one of 4 players along with David Robinson to ever have recorded a quad double. In fact, the same month he had a 2nd quad double which was later rescinded by the NBA who took back one assist. So Hakeem came one assist shy of having 2 quadruple doubles in one month.

You missed the operative words: Finals closeout game. It makes a big difference. Also, I pointed out that this is more of a curiosity than a final arbiter.

The general consensus is that Olajuwon had a higher peak. I think there are some flaws in that position, even though I tend to agree. As I already mentioned, Duncan has at least one Finals performance that tops any Olajuwon Finals performance. Additionally, Hakeem is retired; Tim is still an active player. My best guess is that Duncan is about to enter the decline phase of his career, due to aging. Still, we don't know what the future will bring. If the Spurs repeat and Duncan has a monster year, many people will think of that as his peak, rather than using a statistical approach.

[Sec24Row7]

Patrick Ewing was an overrated joke who gets a lot of credit for playing in a big market.

[JamStone]

Patrick Ewing was an overrated joke who gets a lot of credit for playing in a big market.

I tend to agree with the notion he was overrated, but not to that extreme.

After his first two seasons in the league, he helped lead the Knicks to 13 consecutive playoff seasons. Look at the Knicks of recent seasons, and you'll realize how much of an accomplishment that is. Career numbers of 21 ppg, 10 rpg, 2.4 bpg, and 50% FG shooting. 11 time all star. An NBA Finals appearance. All NBA first or second team 7 times.

Spurs fans are fortunate to have a the likes of Tim Duncan and David Robinson to set their standards on what is great. But, to any fan of NBA basketball, Patrick Ewing was one of the greats of all time. And, this coming from someone who still thinks he was overrated, just not to the point I would call him a "joke."

[kingmalaki]

Garnett has better numbers than Duncan. Is he better than Duncan? No. I think it's universally understood by now that Duncan is the superior player to Garnett. Numbers have a lot more to do with system. You go on to later say that Hakeem didn't have a lockdown perimeter defender. Thus, he would have more opportunity for shot blocks. The only clear advantage he has is steals. Duncan could easily average 26-30 points a game if he was given the touches. He's unselfish. He makes everyone else better, he doesn't say I need X amount of touches per game. Whereas if you passed the ball to Hakeem, you weren't getting it back.

Garnett does not have Duncan's post game and isn't as good of a defender in the lane. You can look at their skillsets and clearly point to things Duncan can do that KG can't, especially when it comes to playing with your back to the basket like a traditional big. You can't do that with Hakeem. There is nothing on the court that Timmy could do that he couldn't. Looking at their offensive arsenal Hakeem had more moves. The numbers show he scored more on a better % (since you claim he could score more if he wanted..that we know, but could he score at as good of a rate). He was a better FT shooter. He was a better man defender and more athletic (and quicker) which allowed him to make certain plays that Duncan can't make (i.e. chasing down Rod Strickland or KJ from the end of the court to block shots). He and Robinson brought a level of athleticism to the center position that has rarely been seen (maybe only Wlit).

Hakeem blocked A LOT more shots (#1 All-Time) because he is a better shotblocker (see the physical advantages he has over Duncan mentioned above). A great defender like Bowen directs folks towards the help D and is already contesting the shot. It makes it easier to block as opposed to a wide open shot where the offensive player only has to beat you instead of two men.

Folks got the ball back when they passed it to Dream. The only difference is he had many seasons playing with scrub teammates while Duncan never has. Easier to “trust someone” when they can hit a shot.

Um, I'd say that's a pretty big argument. Considering les are the most important thing in the NBA. It's real easy to blame supporting cast. I've seen it done countless times with Garnett supporters.

When you take les into account you have to consider the surrounding help and the teams defeated. In case you missed this question the first time, what Spurs le team would Hakeem have not won a le on? Again, I don’t see Duncan carrying our squads to a ring in 94 or 95 because he has never shown the ability to put up as many points at a high % during a postseason (as we had no one else to score in the first run) AND be relied on to stop a superstar big on the other end. He has never been relied on to contain Shaq, and Amare got off against him. Again, different situations but Duncan has never shown that he can go 1-1 against a great big ON BOTH ENDS and win a series. This isn’t a knock on Duncan because what Hakeem did in 94/95 (going through 3 HOF’ers at his position on the way to les) doesn’t happen often.

No, he wasn't. He missed the playoffs. Something Duncan has never done, and will never do... no matter what teammates he is playing with.

So again, please name one team where Duncan’s surrounding talent wasn’t in the top 3rd of the league. Over half the teams make the playoffs. Will you continue to dodge these questions?

Not really. The West is stronger now than it's ever been. Nice try, though. And if you want to talk about peak... I don't recall Hakeem ever putting up a damn near quadruple double in the Finals.

No, it’s not. The 90’s Rockets, Blazers, Jazz, Suns and Sonics would all be championship contenders in today’s league. You do realize Hakeem’s Finals numbers surpass Duncan’s, right?

ROFL @ the "Wallace boys"... you mean in the finals... when he lead them to a game 7 victory on 2 bad wheels? Oh, that one. Good example. Kurt Thomas? I love this one, especially. Duncan was shooting like 8 for 8 from the field and the announcers are like... Duncan is working very hard for his points, Kurt Thomas is playing excellent defense. Meanwhile the guy hasn't missed a shot. Yeah, stellar defense there. 100% FG% is rough.

I mena the Finals where Horry saved his butt in game 5….did you forget that?

Really? So Hakeem won 4 championships then?

What team does Hakeem not get a ring on if you replace Duncan with him?

Had the highest winning % in sports since entering the league?

Would he have had the highest % if he played in a league with the 80’s Lakers, 80’s Celtics and 90’s Bulls dynasties?

Made first team all-nba his first 9 years in the league?

Would he make all-nba every year competing with CENTERS like Kareem, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq? You do know there is one center spot and two forward spots, right? Is any player he was beating for an all-nba spot better than the centers mentioned above?

Won 3 finals MVP's? I can keep going... but I'll stop to save your boy the embarrassment.

Too bad he had to play the 86 Celtics and not the 99 Knicks or he woulda had 3 MVP’s. Keep going….I am still waiting for you to say something/anything relevant. You are relying completely on championships won, so I guess Horry > Jordan. Again, do you not think Hakeem wins on those teams. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY.

[maddnezz]

Tim Duncan played 1 on 5 on the court for his four les?

Shut up Jordan was great but had a lot of phantom calls,
dont get it twisted dude

[kingmalaki]

As I already mentioned, Duncan has at least one Finals performance that tops any Olajuwon Finals performance.

How does one Finals game against a Nets frontline of Collins, K-Mart and a 36 yr old Mutombo top Olajuwon putting up 33 a game against a Shaq/Grant frontline in a sweep (becoming one of the few players in NBA history to score at least 30 points in every game of an NBA Finals series) , while also having to hold Shaq on the other end? How does that surpass Hakeem putting up 27 a game on a Ewing/Oakley/Mason frontline in 1994 when the Rockets only scored 88 ppg that series, while also having to hold Ewing on the other end?

[kingmalaki]

Finally, the Spurs DID rebuild, 2003 was supposedly the rebuilding year, neither Parker and Ginobili came of age, and Robinson was on his last legs. Stephen Jackson was the #2 on the team offensively, and the Spurs still managed to dethrone the 3-peat Lakers and win the championship.

Parker put up 16 and 6 that year. S.Jackson put up 12 a game. Robinson was on his last legs but he still was the defensive anchor when it mattered most…when they had to play LA. When he couldn’t bang with Shaq or other bigs Rose or Willis filled in. Manu provided a spark off the bench and an ability to hit big shots and drive with no abandon.

Again, the Spurs have never had to really rebuild because the FO has drafted well and has been able to attract quality older free agents chasing a ring (Willis and S.Smith in the case of the 03 team). Please find me one season where Duncan has been on a scrub team if you are using team accolades as your support, unless you don’t think it takes a team to win.

Duncan is even on record as noting how fortunate he is to have been on a team with a great FO, one coach during his tenure, etc. The only stars that walked into a better situation IMO are Magic and Kobe.

[Reggie Miller]

How does one Finals game against a Nets frontline of Collins, K-Mart and a 36 yr old Mutombo top Olajuwon putting up 33 a game against a Shaq/Grant frontline in a sweep (becoming one of the few players in NBA history to score at least 30 points in every game of an NBA Finals series) , while also having to hold Shaq on the other end? How does that surpass Hakeem putting up 27 a game on a Ewing/Oakley/Mason frontline in 1994 when the Rockets only scored 88 ppg that series, while also having to hold Ewing on the other end?

You're comparing a single game to two entire series.

All I am saying is that even if you compare "peaks" then it isn't 100% clear cut. This is not a Duncan v. Garnett comparison; this is a Majic Johnson v. Michael Jordan argument.

I actually tend to agree with you, and I think you made some very good points earlier. In particular, it is worth noting that it's not like Duncan has a skill set that Olajuwon didn't possess. On the other hand, Hakeem could do a few things Timmy can't do, or did it a little better.

[Sec24Row7]

I tend to agree with the notion he was overrated, but not to that extreme.

After his first two seasons in the league, he helped lead the Knicks to 13 consecutive playoff seasons. Look at the Knicks of recent seasons, and you'll realize how much of an accomplishment that is. Career numbers of 21 ppg, 10 rpg, 2.4 bpg, and 50% FG shooting. 11 time all star. An NBA Finals appearance. All NBA first or second team 7 times.

Spurs fans are fortunate to have a the likes of Tim Duncan and David Robinson to set their standards on what is great. But, to any fan of NBA basketball, Patrick Ewing was one of the greats of all time. And, this coming from someone who still thinks he was overrated, just not to the point I would call him a "joke."

It is a joke to compare him to Robinson Shaq or Hakeem.

He and Mourning are Clearly second tier to those 3 for that era... and he had no business being named to the top 50 players of all time. He's a marginal HOF player in any market but LA, NY or boston. He's not a first or second team player 7 times if he doesnt play in NY either.

[ambchang]

Parker put up 16 and 6 that year. S.Jackson put up 12 a game. Robinson was on his last legs but he still was the defensive anchor when it mattered most…when they had to play LA. When he couldn’t bang with Shaq or other bigs Rose or Willis filled in. Manu provided a spark off the bench and an ability to hit big shots and drive with no abandon.

Again, the Spurs have never had to really rebuild because the FO has drafted well and has been able to attract quality older free agents chasing a ring (Willis and S.Smith in the case of the 03 team). Please find me one season where Duncan has been on a scrub team if you are using team accolades as your support, unless you don’t think it takes a team to win.

Duncan is even on record as noting how fortunate he is to have been on a team with a great FO, one coach during his tenure, etc. The only stars that walked into a better situation IMO are Magic and Kobe.

Does Parker putting up 16 and 6 (actually 15.5 and 5.3) somehow change the fact that he was a 20 yo PG from France playing his second season in the NBA, or him, being as great as you described, having his butt saved by a 92 yo old Steve Kerr and a guy who can't hit an outside shot to save his life in Claxton?
Does that somehow change the fact that Terrell Brandon, at his peak and playing with Garnett, was a way better PG than the 2003 Parker?
12 ppg (actually 11.8) Jackson? Wow! Awesome! You know how many people averaged >= 11.8 last year in the league? 114, and one of them was called Adam Morrison, othrs also include Ryan Gomes, Jarret Jack, Mark Blount, and Delonte West. I am sure those guys would jump right in front of you when you talk about a championship caliber supporting cast, right?
Robinson, Rose and Willis did do a great job against the Lakers, too bad the team had to play another 82 games and 3 playoff rounds.
Manu drove great that year to his fantastic 7.6 ppg and 1.4 TO! Whoopey doo! He throws the ball to the opposition only once ever time he scores 5.4 points! And who can forget his 43.8% FG shooting? He was so great that year, Spurs fans were openly saying they wanted Hedo back!

And yes, Spurs FO did an amazing job, not qualms about that, but aren't we going in circular logic here?
Me: Duncan's team won a lot.
You: But he had great teammates throughout his career.
Me: No he didn't, the Spurs overachieved by a mile in 03.
You: That is not true, that team won the championship.

Well, it's because Duncan took those scrub teams and willed them to the championship. Look again at the 03 team, tell me that was a playoff team without Duncan with a straight face. That team without Duncan was basically comparable to the last year's Celtics without Pierce, and yet Duncan dragged them to 60 wins (itself a great accomplishment) and then dethroned the 3-peat Lakers to the le.

The 99 team wasn't that great, it was a fantastic defensive unit, but it was basically just Duncan on offense (they relied on Jaren Jackson for crying out loud). 05 was a solid team with Manu being the 2nd coming of Jordan in the playoffs, but the rest of the team wasn't all that strong. 07 was by far the most talented Spurs team with Parker coming of age, and Manu still having some of his magic left.

[kingmalaki]

You're comparing a single game to two entire series.

All I am saying is that even if you compare "peaks" then it isn't 100% clear cut. This is not a Duncan v. Garnett comparison; this is a Majic Johnson v. Michael Jordan argument.

I actually tend to agree with you, and I think you made some very good points earlier. In particular, it is worth noting that it's not like Duncan has a skill set that Olajuwon didn't possess. On the other hand, Hakeem could do a few things Timmy can't do, or did it a little better.

My bad, i thought you were saying his performance in the Finals was better than anything Hakeem ever did in the Finals. I did not know you were just specifying that one game. I do think Hakeem shares the playoff or Finals record for blocks in a game but I think you may be right...he has never put up a near quad dub in the Finals, especially with 20-20.

[kingmalaki]

Does Parker putting up 16 and 6 (actually 15.5 and 5.3) somehow change the fact that he was a 20 yo PG from France playing his second season in the NBA, or him, being as great as you described, having his butt saved by a 92 yo old Steve Kerr and a guy who can't hit an outside shot to save his life in Claxton?
Does that somehow change the fact that Terrell Brandon, at his peak and playing with Garnett, was a way better PG than the 2003 Parker?

Didn’t Magic win as a rookie? Didn’t Sam Cassell play very big for us in his rookie year when we first won in 95? Didn’t Horry when we won (his 2nd and third seasons)? Did Duncan not carry you to a le in his second? Did Hakeem not carry the Rockets to the Finals past LA in his second? So what does TP being in his second yr have to do with anything? He produced....

I never stated that Duncan had the best team every season. My point is he has NEVER been on a scrub team. You are providing support noting that some of his teams weren't the most talented team in the league, but that is far different than a scrub team (i.e. Hakeems Rockets from 87-91, some of Robinsons Spurs, T-Mac's Magic, Kobe's Lakers, etc). You can’t dismiss that when touting his championships (i.e. TEAM accomplishment). Again, name me one season where Duncan played on a team as poor as the teams that Dream and Robinson played on for a good chunk of their careers?

12 ppg (actually 11.8) Jackson? Wow! Awesome! You know how many people averaged >= 11.8 last year in the league? 114, and one of them was called Adam Morrison, othrs also include Ryan Gomes, Jarret Jack, Mark Blount, and Delonte West. I am sure those guys would jump right in front of you when you talk about a championship caliber supporting cast, right?

Is 12 ppg bad for a 3rd scorer? Yes or no? How many teams had a star player with worse surrounding talent than Duncan did in 03? Maybe 4 at most? You still aren’t addressing the point that Duncan’s teams have always had very good supporting talent, in comparison to the talent on other teams in the league at that time. If your argument is that other folks in the league that year had just as much talent then I agree with you, although you won’t find too many studs who did have that much help. Yes, I think Duncan is better than KG and Dirk (other PF’s with just as much help that season)…but let’s not act like they were playing with stacked squads while he was playing with scrubs.

Robinson, Rose and Willis did do a great job against the Lakers, too bad the team had to play another 82 games and 3 playoff rounds.
Manu drove great that year to his fantastic 7.6 ppg and 1.4 TO! Whoopey doo! He throws the ball to the opposition only once ever time he scores 5.4 points! And who can forget his 43.8% FG shooting? He was so great that year, Spurs fans were openly saying they wanted Hedo back!

So you dismiss the Robinson/Rose/Willis impact in playing D on Shaq (the ONLY stud big they had to face in Tim’s era), so Tim didn’t have to bang with him and could just concentrate on offense and help defense?

And yes, Spurs FO did an amazing job, not qualms about that, but aren't we going in circular logic here?
Me: Duncan's team won a lot.
You: But he had great teammates throughout his career.
Me: No he didn't, the Spurs overachieved by a mile in 03.
You: That is not true, that team won the championship.

How did the Spurs overachieve that season? They had the #2 record in the league (tied with Dallas). They were a top 5 team the prior year and lost to the eventual champion (many said either them or LA would win the le that season). TP got a yr older, they added Kevin Willis, Manu and Kerr (who was brought in specifically to do what he had experience doing, making big wide open shots with the game on the line). So a top five team that loses to the champs keeps their core, adds veteran help, someone with championship experience and they overachieved even though most picked either them or LA to win it all. Sure man….

Well, it's because Duncan took those scrub teams and willed them to the championship. Look again at the 03 team, tell me that was a playoff team without Duncan with a straight face. That team without Duncan was basically comparable to the last year's Celtics without Pierce, and yet Duncan dragged them to 60 wins (itself a great accomplishment) and then dethroned the 3-peat Lakers to the le.

Again, do you think Hakeem would not win a le with that team? If so, then why? This argument would hold more merit if Hakeem didn’t carry a worse squad to a le against better compe ion (in 94). And I am still waiting for you to point out who was a scrub on the 03 team? Willis, Rose and Kerr off the bench looks pretty good to me. David Robinson as your defensive anchor looks pretty good to me. Jackson as your #3 scorer looks good to me. TP starting looks good to me. What team with a top 10 player would have made the playoffs in 03 if you removed their best player?

The 99 team wasn't that great, it was a fantastic defensive unit, but it was basically just Duncan on offense (they relied on Jaren Jackson for crying out loud). 05 was a solid team with Manu being the 2nd coming of Jordan in the playoffs, but the rest of the team wasn't all that strong. 07 was by far the most talented Spurs team with Parker coming of age, and Manu still having some of his magic left.

My point is the 99 team or the 03 teams weren’t that bad. Please list 5 better squads from either season, from 1-12? The only ones I can really think of with better surrounding talent were the Lakers, Kings, Mavs and Blazers…and I already admit that Duncan was better than the stars from those teams (save Shaq). However, you make it seem like he was carrying scrubs to les. Each of those le teams had top 5 league talent compared to the rest of the league….unless you can rattle off 5 squads that were better (waiting…….).

And I love Duncan (a sin for a Rockets fan) and think he is without doubt the best PF in league history (that I have seen at least). I may even take him over Shaq since Shaq is lazy at times and doesn't always bring it defensively. But when I start looking at some of these centers like Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem....I am not seeing Duncan do anything that I don't believe they could do if in the same situation. I have yet to see Duncan go into kill mode like those guys have (not for 1 game..for extended playoff runs). I have yet to see him just destroy another stud big in that class. I think he is great...just that the others are better.

[ambchang]

[QUOTE=kingmalaki]Didn’t Magic win as a rookie? Didn’t Sam Cassell play very big for us in his rookie year when we first won in 95? Didn’t Horry when we won (his 2nd and third seasons)? Did Duncan not carry you to a le in his second? Did Hakeem not carry the Rockets to the Finals past LA in his second? So what does TP being in his second yr have to do with anything? He produced....

Yes, Magic also won the Finals MVP, was a 3 time league MVP, and the best PG ever. Nobody in their right minds would say the same about Parker, and it STILL doesn’t change the fact that Parker WAS an inexperienced 20 yo 2nd year player from France who got chewed out by his coach because of his poor decision making and had his ass saved by Kerr and Claxton.

And didn’t Cassell come off the bench in 95? Didn’t Horry play a complimentary role, as, at best, the 4th best player on the team behind Hakeem, Otis Thorpe/Clyde, Kenny Smith/Vernon Maxwell while Parker was the #2 (#3 at worst) on that team?
Tony produced enough for a 2 yo PG, he still got his head chewed off by his coach.

I never stated that Duncan had the best team every season. My point is he has NEVER been on a scrub team. You are providing support noting that some of his teams weren't the most talented team in the league, but that is far different than a scrub team (i.e. Hakeems Rockets from 87-91, some of Robinsons Spurs, T-Mac's Magic, Kobe's Lakers, etc). You can’t dismiss that when touting his championships (i.e. TEAM accomplishment). Again, name me one season where Duncan played on a team as poor as the teams that Dream and Robinson played on for a good chunk of their careers?

What would that prove anything? That because Hakeem had worse teammates in their careers means and did worse than Duncan did with good teammates somehow translates as proof that Hakeem is better? What we do know is when both have a 20 ppg all-star centers by their side, Duncan’s team won 56 games his rookie season and then won the championship his second season, while Hakeem’s won 48 and then lost in the finals. And we do know that while both teams led their teams with a relatively weak supporting cast to the championship, Duncan’s team won 60 games in the regular season, while Hakeems team won 58.

Is 12 ppg bad for a 3rd scorer? Yes or no? How many teams had a star player with worse surrounding talent than Duncan did in 03? Maybe 4 at most? You still aren’t addressing the point that Duncan’s teams have always had very good supporting talent, in comparison to the talent on other teams in the league at that time. If your argument is that other folks in the league that year had just as much talent then I agree with you, although you won’t find too many studs who did have that much help. Yes, I think Duncan is better than KG and Dirk (other PF’s with just as much help that season)…but let’s not act like they were playing with stacked squads while he was playing with scrubs.

And I keep telling you that the 03 was not good supporting talent. You want to know how the support talent did without Duncan? They lost in the 1st round to a 5th seed after Duncan went down a year from a championship season, that’s how good they were. And KG couldn’t even get his team into the playoffs for a couple of season, while Dirk played with Finley, and Nash in their primes and STILL couldn’t get the Mavs into the finals. Duncan had 4 seasons with an all-star by his side and won 2 championships in those seasons (05 and 07, you can argue 99, where there was no all-star game, and that would make it 3 championships in 5 seasons with an allstar by his side), in the other years he didn’t have any all-stars beside him, he won a championship in 03. Dirk never had a similar season, and KG couldn’t even get his team out of the 1st round except 04.

So you dismiss the Robinson/Rose/Willis impact in playing D on Shaq (the ONLY stud big they had to face in Tim’s era), so Tim didn’t have to bang with him and could just concentrate on offense and help defense?

How did the Spurs overachieve that season? They had the #2 record in the league (tied with Dallas). They were a top 5 team the prior year and lost to the eventual champion (many said either them or LA would win the le that season). TP got a yr older, they added Kevin Willis, Manu and Kerr (who was brought in specifically to do what he had experience doing, making big wide open shots with the game on the line). So a top five team that loses to the champs keeps their core, adds veteran help, someone with championship experience and they overachieved even though most picked either them or LA to win it all. Sure man….

Didn’t the Spurs overachieve by having the #2 record in the league? Didn’t Robinson got a year older as well? Wasn’t Willis 42 years old then? Didn’t Manu get hurt at the beginning of the season and never contributed significantly to the championship that year (he specifically said that in 05)? Wasn’t Kerr like 40 years old as well? You make is sound like Willis and Kerr were some bonafide superstar, and that Manu was the Manu of 05. That was not the case at all, it’s not even close. Kerr didn’t even get any time until the situation got desperate vs. the Mavs, and Pop took the risk. It paid off. Kerr averaged a whopping 4ppg on 12.7 that season, then proceed to only play in 10 games in the playoffs, averaging 4.6 mins and 2.2 points.

And find me previews where people picked the Spurs to win in 03, the Lakers and the Kings were by far the favourites in 03, the Spurs were in rebuilding mode when Robinson made known that he was retiring. The following were results I got when I typed in 2002-03 NBA preview in google:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../preview/main/
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nba/nba2003.html
http://www.nba.com/preview2002/Gener...er_Survey.html
http://www.tuftsobserver.org/sports/..._court_an.html
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/shanoff/021029.html

What you said cannot be further from the truth.

Again, do you think Hakeem would not win a le with that team? If so, then why? This argument would hold more merit if Hakeem didn’t carry a worse squad to a le against better compe ion (in 94). And I am still waiting for you to point out who was a scrub on the 03 team? Willis, Rose and Kerr off the bench looks pretty good to me. David Robinson as your defensive anchor looks pretty good to me. Jackson as your #3 scorer looks good to me. TP starting looks good to me. What team with a top 10 player would have made the playoffs in 03 if you removed their best player?

I am saying the Spurs team of 03 was not anything close to a championship team, and yet they overachieved to do so, despite your revisionist history.
There were scrubs a plenty in that team. Claxton, Kerr, Willis, Rose (see what he did with the Knicks), Steve Smith, Danny Ferry. They even had the undisputed worst Spurs of all time on that roster, Mengke Bateer. No, they don’t need 12 all-stars, but like every other team, they had their share of scrubs.

And how can you justify the Rockets not winning a championship in 94 and 95 with Duncan in place of Hakeem?

My point is the 99 team or the 03 teams weren’t that bad. Please list 5 better squads from either season, from 1-12? The only ones I can really think of with better surrounding talent were the Lakers, Kings, Mavs and Blazers…and I already admit that Duncan was better than the stars from those teams (save Shaq). However, you make it seem like he was carrying scrubs to les. Each of those le teams had top 5 league talent compared to the rest of the league….unless you can rattle off 5 squads that were better (waiting…….).

Of course those teams weren’t that bad, they won the championship, but those were not supposed to be championship teams. The 99 team was 6-8, and people were calling for Pop’s head earlier on in the season. NOBODY expected them to win the championship that season except Spurs fan. Jazz was the popular pick. And 03, I have already addressed earlier on.

If you want to talk about surrounding talent, meaning teams without their superstar, Lakers, Kings, Mavs, Blazers, Nets, Pistons, Pacers all had better talent than the Spurs when you take out the respective #1s on their teams.

And I love Duncan (a sin for a Rockets fan) and think he is without doubt the best PF in league history (that I have seen at least). I may even take him over Shaq since Shaq is lazy at times and doesn't always bring it defensively. But when I start looking at some of these centers like Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem....I am not seeing Duncan do anything that I don't believe they could do if in the same situation. I have yet to see Duncan go into kill mode like those guys have (not for 1 game..for extended playoff runs). I have yet to see him just destroy another stud big in that class. I think he is great...just that the others are better.

The 03 playoffs was definitely kill mode for him, ditto for 99.
The problem for Duncan is that there were no stud bigs for him to destroy, is this his fault? Isn’t destroying Shaq and Mutombo in 03 enough? Handling the Wallace brothers in the 05 finals on two bad wheels enough (he averaged 20.6 and 14.1 vs. 21.6 and 15.9 for the Wallace brothers in the series, including 2 games where he outscored AND outrebounded both players combined, and a game where he outrebounded both players). I mean, what could you expect from him?
What about putting up absolutely dominant numbers in losing causes? See 02 and 01 series vs. the Lakers.