Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.
Um...Mario Elie also went for momentum swinging shots....it's not my fault you are blind.
Hey...some guys are meant to be coaches and some guys are meant to be players...Mario was obviously a guy meant to be a player, and AJ was obviously a guy meant to be a coach...both have more credibility that way.Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets.
Avery Johnson was a message board poster on the court....
Anyone can tell you how to do it...only a handful can actually do it...and AJ wasn't one of them.
I can sit there and and tell guys to play harder, I can also miss and refuse to take ing shots while I am doing it....it's not Rocket Science.
whottt is maniacal on this subject. You argue about AJ with whottt and you'll get filibustered to death. Trust me, I'm well trained in overcoming his maniacal ways
As far as AJ's shooting, he couldn't really shoot. But he knew that. And he only took shots he could make. That's why his shooting percentage was so good.
whottt for some reason equates three point shooting with how good a player is. AJ couldn't shoot so he only shot when he knew he could make it. Where is the harm in that?
Link to where I said differently?
Okay make it Duncan in "03 but your take that nothing would have happened if Avery hadn't brought us a le in '99 it still one of the lamest, most contrived arguments I've seen you make.
Manu was a borderline scrub during the 2003 playoffs. He had one good series (Lakers) and three horrible series. He also clashed with Pop.
To say Manu was the reason the Spurs won the 2003 championship is crazy. He was awesome in 2005 and very good in 2007, but in 2003 he was a barely capable role player.
Now that would have made a lot more sense.
That was weak. Show me the data that says being a leader in the heat of compe ion translates into being a successful coach.
Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.
Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets.
IF that was the only championship that the Spurs had won, it would be a valid point to retire his number. But as things stand now, AJ was an important piece on one of many championship teams. We can't be expected to retire the numbers of every player who significantly contributes to a championship run, can we? Are we supposed to hoist up Kerr, Horry, Jax, Elie, Malik, et al? You would have a hard time arguing that shots by Kerr and Horry were not 10x more valuable than the final bucket of a 1999 Game 5 when we were up 3-1. Can we stop lionizing that shot?
And yes, the fact that he did not retire as a Spur, played for three more teams and became an arrogant bas have something to do with my recitence to jump on his jockstrap.
I give Mario the props he deserved. He was a of a lot better than Vinny ... who was the main person to blame for the unclutchness this team weathered during the 90's. Going from Vinny to Mario was like going from Dirk to Michael Jordan in terms of clutchness.
But the leader of 1999 was AJ. Everyone involved, including Mario himself, agrees.
I knew you are a sucker for a soundbite but while Mario was talking in front of the cameras, AJ was being even harsher in the background. And not only that, AJ was the one who installed a new offense.
You know ... the championship winning offense. AJ was the leader of everyone on that team ... including Mario and Pop.
Last edited by timvp; 10-02-2007 at 03:51 PM.
I'll say that Elie was a huge part to the Spurs success that season, and probably contributed more than Avery as far as clutch shots, mental toughness, and bringing energy.
But without either player, the Spurs probably don't win the championship that season.
Like whottt pointed out, it was Elie who got the team fired up by calling everyone out and that really turned things around. He also led by example on the court and was incredibly clutch that season.
But without Avery's leadership, the Spurs don't win in 99 either. There is no way Steve Kerr or a young Antonio Daniels could have run the offense for a championship team. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and that would have spelled disaster.
That's a mistake.
The championship experience attained by Duncan and Pop in 1999 was a huge part of the current success. In fact, Pop probably doesn't even make it to 2003 if he doesn't win the 1999 championships.
And on top of that, the Spurs became a place for veterans to retire and win rings after the 1999 championship. 1999 was the base of it all.
AJ doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired ... if all we were basing it on was one shot.
That shot was just icing on the cake. If I listed 100 reasons why AJ deserves his number to be retired, that shot wouldn't even crack the list.
I'll agree that he was lucky to play with Duncan and Robinson. Without those two great players, AJ wouldn't have done much as a player.
That said, there have been tons of talented teams before. You need more to win championships. AJ had a lot of "more" in him.
I give Mario the props he deserved. He was a of a lot better than Vinny ... who was the main person to blame for the unclutchness this team weathered during the 90's. Going from Vinny to Mario was like going from Dirk to Michael Jordan in terms of clutchness.
But the leader of 1999 was AJ. Everyone involved, including Mario himself, agrees.
I knew you area sucker for a soundbite but while Mario was talking in front of the cameras, AJ was being even harsher in the background. And not only that, AJ was the one who installed a new offense.
You know ... the championship winning offense. AJ was the leader of everyone on that team ... including Mario and Pop.
There's no such thing as a championship winning offense...there's only guys that can hit shots when it matters...especially open ones when their bigmen are being doubled...and those that can't.
AJ is not one, as evidenced by his entire career not spent with Mario Elie...
Mario Elie was one...just ask the pre Mario ringless Hakeem and DRob. And watch a game from the 99 season some time....
I gurantee you if you ask David Robison, Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon what they value more...some guy who rides their ass or some guy who can hit a ing shot when they are being doubled...what their answer will be.
Good of you to use an opinion in the form of fact. Well done.
Alright, well let me know when you need me to fix your own take again.
Thanks.
I can gurantee you that they Spurs didn't win a championship with AJ leading....until the year SuperMario arrived and started knocking down some mother ing shots.
That championship offense is a choking offense when you have Hedo instead of Jack....notice the difference.
timvp...anytime your biggest backers are Mavfans...time to rethink some stuff...JMO.
Nice 2 for 1 combo. Diss the mav fan and use it to take a shot at Timvp's credibility all in one post
If people want to argue that AJ was the leader in the locker room, I take no umbrage with that. But please, let's quit with the "mad skillz" takes. He was a marginal player from a talent perspective who was one HoFer teammate away from being out of the league. Loved his spirit, loved his grit and determination, but he was what he was.
Making AJ THE reason that the Spurs won in '99 is like giving the veteran backup QB the Super Bowl MVP because he mentored the kid who threw for over 300 yards in the Big Game.
Do I believe that the Spurs could have won without AJ? Yes. See: Tim Duncan in '03, '05 and '07. There is a reason that AJ only stayed two more years after the le run. Because TD made it clear it was HIS team, unlike DRob who was happy to let AJ take ownership. In my humble opinion, of course.
You go ahead and link me to Drob saying whatever you want...I can link you to Drob wanting Parker and Manu as guards...
Just because Drob never came out and said AJ sucked doesn't mean it wasn't so...Drob has that class thing going.
Aj sucked less as a PG than Vinny...that's the sum total of his talent as a player.
You could use the term "barely capable role player" to describe Avery Johnson's entire career.
So it was just coincidence that when the Spurs changed their offense after losing to the Jazz in 1999 that their season turned around? You say it was Elie sitting in front of NBC cameras that turned the team around. I say it was a change in the offensive and defensive philosophies that did it.
This isn't the WWF. Speaking like a hard azz in front of cameras isn't the end all, be all.
It's classic that you always try to pit AJ and Robinson against each other, yet in real life they are best friends.
Welcome to the world of the AJ fan...no one and nothing is sacred when it comes to jocking AJ...his fans will throw any and everyone under the bus in the process of defending the indefensible, and apologizing for the unapologizable...including the Spurs franchise.
And they are going to cram and force that worthless jersey down our throats no matter how many people don't want it...and I promise you this...no retired Spurs jersey in history has ever had as many people not wanting it retired as AJ's...and the AJ fans just laugh.
It's not just a case of ambivalance with a slight bias against AJ...there are many fans that are violently opposed to it....and the AJ fans just laugh.
I take solace in the fact that AJ got punked by both Manu and Parker after running his mouth against them...he came off looking like as big of an idiot as Damoin Stoudamire did...to those with a shred of objectivity....
I mean these same AJ fans that were outraged about Stoudamire's comments give AJ a free pass for doing hte same thing to two players much more valuable to this franchise than he ever was. And AJ got owned just like Stoudamire did...GMTA.
I also have to snicker that the biggest owning about AJ's jersey was when Pop himself handed Manu AJ's jersey.....that shows you want Pop thought about the idea before Don Harris went for the jersey retirement coup.
Last edited by whottt; 10-02-2007 at 04:05 PM.
By no means was AJ THE REASON the Spurs won in 99.
Forget about 03, 05, 07 those were different teams with different players
Now do you seriously think that the Spurs could have won the championship with an over the hill spot up shooter with no ball distributing skills aka Steve Kerr running point?
It was a TEAM effort and you can't win a championship without a dependable point guard, which is what AJ was. Dependable, not great or even good, but he did bring intangibles to the table which is why he deserves to have his number retired.
If you read my posts you will see that I use a great deal of statistics to back up any facts I may present. The current vein of thought is regarding the impact of the intangibles for two different players, which are subjective at best. Ergo, it should be a bit obvious that my statement is an opinion, as would be any of your refuting of my statement.
Good of you to use an opinion in the form of fact. Well done.
I'll help you out next time and throw in an "IMO" next time, OK?
Bust out the thesaurus and calculator and find me some stats that show that the Spurs would have won the 1999 championship without AJ but wouldn't have won it without Mario.
Thanks.
[/thread]
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
