would you trade manu for kobe straight up

[Cry Havoc]

I can gaurantee you that if you ask all NBA players who is the best player in the league they would 90% of time choose Kobe.

Fallacious to the extreme. You have zero proof of this. It's nothing more than blind speculation.

this thread is starting to piss me off.

Getting pissed at the internet? I can't help you in that case.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Sure. You stated that Shaq was horrible after the HOF Lakers were beaten by the Pistons.

Of course, after that happened Shaq moved on and won another ring, while Kobe hasn't made it out of the first round since.

shaq won another ring, of course, but ur implying that he'd have lost weight and got himself in as a good condition as he was his first year with the heat.

I don't believe he would have, adn neither did the lakers. He ignored phils and kobe when they told him to get in shape each of the two summers before.

Comments like this are not only devoid of readable English, but they have absolutely no basis in reality.

if my statment is "devoid readable english" than how the do u come up with a ing response genius? ur statment is, however, devoid of any logic

Stating Shaq wasn't important to the le is... well... if you don't realize how stupid that sounds, I can't help you.

i said puzzle, not le. and he was getting to be increasingly less and less of factor each of his last to years in La.

the point is they couldn't coexist and ur at fault for blaming only kobe. which is wrong. ur judging who he is and how he'd be able to coexist with someone witht the spurs based on a situation that was caused and exacerbated by someone else, snaq.

stephen jackson was a good guy while he was down here becasuse he was surrounded by good people...but once met up with ron artes in indiana he was a ing animal.

so what ur saying is this: Kobe is this, and he'll always be this regardless of who is around him. i have a hard time belieiving he'd be a disruption with good guys around him.

[ynh]

Oh for the love of God. Do you really need this question answered? Kobe and Shaq are both players with heavy PR concerns. They had to be discreet about the situation anyway. Are you that blind to the way Shaq and Kobe verbally sparred for years? Of course they knew the situation. However, only one of us (apparently) takes players on their word as a biblical oath of truth.

Ok so Shaq and Kobe hate eachother.. yet Shaq has the chance to throw Kobe under the buss but throw buss under the buss? Makes lots of sense. And you think the Lakers don't have bigger PR concerns or an easier time masking any concerns they have from the press?

While there were likely multiple factors involved in the movement of Shaq to Miami, I think the primary reasons were money and Kobe, probably equally.

I see your backtracking.. If you belived that money was equally part of the issue why would you say this to state your case

Yeah, you're right. You know more about the Lakers than Magic Johnson, whom I've just quoted on the last page doing little else but saying that it was all Kobe's fault.

Perhaps you'd have far fewer posts if you asked relevant questions instead of trying to make inconsequential points and cherry pick the parts of other posts that agree with you.

Im just having fun seeing how far I can get you to backtrack before you actually say you were wrong.

[ArgSpursFan.]

Manu has won things without Duncan(The olympics)and led his team to victory,and was the Olympics MVP
What Did Kobe win without Shaq??


Never mind.

[Cry Havoc]

Makes lots of sense. And you think the Lakers don't have bigger PR concerns or an easier time masking any concerns they have from the press?

I see your backtracking.. If you belived that money was equally part of the issue why would you say this to state your case

Im just having fun seeing how far I can get you to backtrack before you actually say you were wrong.

i haven't backtracked on a single thing. Money is ALWAYS a reason why a player is not resigned or traded. Stating a player got moved because of money doesn't make you a genius, it just makes you a person with a knack for saying the obvious. You are, however, pretending that it was 100% money and 0% Kobe. Not even LAKERS fans will agree with you on that, as Med has already stated that it wasn't the case earlier in this thread. Which you ignored quite beautifully and congratulated yourself because you seem to think he agreed with you 100%.

Kobe ran Shaq out of town. Pure and simple. Phil said it, Magic said it, and it's hard to believe you just "neglect" to remember the hundreds of little squabbles and disputes between the two. So what if Shaq was partially at fault, too? Kobe was a hog. He's a ty teammate and you don't need to look much further than 81 points to see who he thinks is the most important person in the universe.

Have you noticed all the brawls and fights Shaq and Wade have been in? Remember when Shaq choke slammed Wade for hogging the shots? Oh. That's right, it didn't happen.

Ok so Shaq and Kobe hate eachother.. yet Shaq has the chance to throw Kobe under the buss but throw buss under the buss?

... what?

[ynh]

Sure. You stated that Shaq was horrible after the HOF Lakers were beaten by the Pistons.

Of course, after that happened Shaq moved on and won another ring, while Kobe hasn't made it out of the first round since.

Shaq was a s of his former self during those runs. His playoff averages were 19/8 the year after and 18/9 the year they won the championship and thats for someone that had playoff career averages of 26 and 12.. so while he wasn't horrible he was very much on the decline and anyone that watched the year they won the championship would tell you the refs and wade had more to do with the championship then shaq.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

this thread has been taken into a different direction not originally intended...why people (an di got trapped in it) are debating the shaq thing is beyond me because it doesn't even pertain to the ing question.

the question is would you trade manu for kobe..not who ed the lakers in the ass shaq or kobe?

[Cry Havoc]

if my statment is "devoid readable english" than how the do u come up with a ing response genius? ur statment is, however, devoid of any logic

Hilarious. Not only do you seem to be incapable of typing complete sentences, you fail to grasp simple hyperbole. There there. Lots of people share that difficulty.

i said puzzle, not le. and he was getting to be increasingly less and less of factor each of his last to years in La.

the point is they couldn't coexist and ur at fault for blaming only kobe. which is wrong. ur judging who he is and how he'd be able to coexist with someone witht the spurs based on a situation that was caused and exacerbated by someone else, snaq.

Sure, Shaq was partially at fault too. I never stated that Kobe was solely responsible. However, Shaq has never had a history of conflicting with his teammates like Kobe. Shaq has prospered in Miami, won a le, and he and Wade get along just fine. Kobe is the one who couldn't stand to have another star on his court with him, and now he's ing because his team sucks. I mean, seriously, are you guys THAT blind that you can't see a superstar with a massive ego problem?

stephen jackson was a good guy while he was down here becasuse he was surrounded by good people...but once met up with ron artes in indiana he was a ing animal.

so what ur saying is this: Kobe is this, and he'll always be this regardless of who is around him. i have a hard time belieiving he'd be a disruption with good guys around him.

This is a valid point. Kobe could prosper in San Antonio because of the people around him. It might turn into a Randy Moss type situation. However, with Manu exploding and becoming one of the absolute best guards in the league so far this year, would you REALLY want to risk the entire chemistry of the team? This team that walked through the playoffs last year and looks better and deeper? Why would you want to emotionally upset the players like that? If it worked the Spurs might be the best team in NBA history, but what if it fails? What if Kobe has a couple of bad games in the playoffs and the Spurs lose in 7 to the Jazz or 6 to the Celtics? What if he goes down with an injury? What if Kobe hates it in SA and starts tanking games? It would be a public relations nightmare.

It might work great in NBA 2k7, but Manu has friends in San Antonio. The players and fans love him. Shipping him to LA would be absolutely devastating to the makeup of the team. Not only are they used to him and his playing style, just on a personnel level it would completely change the mood of practices, training, and games. Yes, NBA players are supposed to be professional about that type of thing, but they're human as well.

[Cry Havoc]

this thread has been taken into a different direction not originally intended...why people (an di got trapped in it) are debating the shaq thing is beyond me because it doesn't even pertain to the ing question.

It absolutely has everything to do with the thread topic. Kobe is a ty teammate who cannot tolerate another star on his team, and therefore is a huge risk to trade for on a team like the Spurs. It's very, very ing simple.

[Cry Havoc]

Shaq was a s of his former self during those runs. His playoff averages were 19/8 the year after and 18/9 the year they won the championship and thats for someone that had playoff career averages of 26 and 12.. so while he wasn't horrible he was very much on the decline and anyone that watched the year they won the championship would tell you the refs and wade had more to do with the championship then shaq.

See! Hard evidence. That's what I like to see. I can respond to that. Shaq obviously wasn't as dominant as he was in LA, but a lot of that is because Wade was absolutely lethal in the playoffs last year, and considered the best player in the league at the time. And while it's funny to note that guards Shaq has teamed up with have historically detonated in the post-season, it also bears merit that Kobe would very likely KILL to have a guy who would average close to 20-10 numbers this year. Not to mention that until this year teams have been scared to death to go into the lane against Shaq. That's irony for ya.Not

[ynh]

i haven't backtracked on a single thing. Money is ALWAYS a reason why a player is not resigned or traded. Stating a player got moved because of money doesn't make you a genius, it just makes you a person with a knack for saying the obvious. You are, however, pretending that it was 100% money and 0% Kobe. Not even LAKERS fans will agree with you on that, as Med has already stated that it wasn't the case earlier in this thread. Which you ignored quite beautifully and congratulated yourself because you seem to think he agreed with you 100%.

Kobe ran Shaq out of town. Pure and simple. Phil said it, Magic said it, and it's hard to believe you just "neglect" to remember the hundreds of little squabbles and disputes between the two. So what if Shaq was partially at fault, too? Kobe was a hog. He's a ty teammate and you don't need to look much further than 81 points to see who he thinks is the most important person in the universe.

Have you noticed all the brawls and fights Shaq and Wade have been in? Remember when Shaq choke slammed Wade for hogging the shots? Oh. That's right, it didn't happen.

Ahhh.. once again from the article that you refuse to read or can't read and comprehend.

"'Kobe, I am not going to re-sign Shaq. I am not about to pay him $30 million a year or $80 million over three years. No way in . I feel like he's getting older. His body is breaking down, and I don't want to pay that money to him when I can get value for him right now rather than wait.

"This is my decision. It's independent of you. My mind is made up. It doesn't matter to me what you do in free agency because I do not want to pay [Shaq], period.'"


Would your lazy as please read it now?

... what?

Seriously can you not even follow your own bable? Go back and reread your ..

[Medvedenko]

Cry Havoc....I appreciate your candor. That's all I have to say on this manner. Using per 48 min stats is pointless as I can place Bynum as the best centre in the league. Manu is playing out of his mind, however he has 3 allstar caliber players to play with with arguebly the best coach and system in the L. I've been saying Manu should be able to play like he is now every year....good for him.

[Cry Havoc]

Ahhh.. once again from the article that you refuse to read or can't read and comprehend.

"'Kobe, I am not going to re-sign Shaq. I am not about to pay him $30 million a year or $80 million over three years. No way in . I feel like he's getting older. His body is breaking down, and I don't want to pay that money to him when I can get value for him right now rather than wait.

"This is my decision. It's independent of you. My mind is made up. It doesn't matter to me what you do in free agency because I do not want to pay [Shaq], period.'"


Would your lazy as please read it now?

Sure, I can read that. I take that to mean, "Kobe, I know you ran Shaq out of town, I know you want to be the man, and I basically have to choose you or him. Now despite the fact that he's going to win a le exactly one year after we trade him, he's completely 'washed up', and you have to be the only alpha male in LA, so we're going with you because you're younger.

This is my decision. I am making it appear all my responsibility because if I blamed you publicly, the entire Staples center would be calling for your head. As it is, the rich, fair-weather fans who have far too much time and money will be perfectly happy watching you put up incredible individual efforts without winning a le. Because I really have no choice, as you are both being es about the situation and I'm a cheap ass."

Are you really so homeristic about Kobe that you are going to completely dismiss that politics was a factor in this? Do you care to even attempt to explain why Magic said what he said about Kobe? Magic had ZERO motive to state what he did on national TV, and he said it anyway. There are dozens of reasons for why Buss said what he did to Kobe. Saving the fanbase, appealing to his only remaining star, attempting to alleviate Kobe of blame, and yes, saving money. Once again, I'm not the one here who's pretending that Kobe is 100% free of blame. But feel free to stick your head in the sand some more.

Seriously can you not even follow your own bable? Go back and reread your ..

Please, for the love of god, tell me what this means.

"Ok so Shaq and Kobe hate eachother.. yet Shaq has the chance to throw Kobe under the buss but throw buss under the buss? Makes lots of sense. And you think the Lakers don't have bigger PR concerns or an easier time masking any concerns they have from the press?"

[ynh]

the question is would you trade manu for kobe..not who ed the lakers in the ass shaq or kobe?

The reason this is be debated is because the only justifiable reason some give for not taking kobe is the beif that he is a bad teamate and ran shaq out of town.. thus would do the same thing in San An and run Duncan out of town.

[Cry Havoc]

Cry Havoc....I appreciate your candor. That's all I have to say on this manner. Using per 48 min stats is pointless as I can place Bynum as the best centre in the league. Manu is playing out of his mind, however he has 3 allstar caliber players to play with with arguebly the best coach and system in the L. I've been saying Manu should be able to play like he is now every year....good for him.

I also wonder if he can keep up this pace. If he does, and the Spurs stay healthy, they are unbeatable. Even if he doesn't though, he fits in. Manu averaging 18/5/5 per game will be enough in the playoffs to make another deep run, I think. Plus, Spurs fans love Manu, and it could also be argued that with lesser teammates, his stats would be even more insane. I mean, it's not like he's pulling 3s out of his ass. Look at his insane collection of plays this year. The man has skill.

[ynh]

Ok.. to cut it down even more for those ( or the ) poster that is riding the short bus to school

This is my decision. It's independent of you. My mind is made up. It doesn't matter to me what you do in free agency because I do not want to pay [Shaq], period

[Cry Havoc]

Ok.. to cut it down even more for those ( or the ) poster that is riding the short bus to school

I don't want you to take all the heat for running the most dominant NBA center in decades out of town, so I will take the blame because it -might- benefit our team in the long run.

Get my point, yet?

[ynh]

Get my point, yet?

Oh wow you quoted yourself as a source! Thats gotta be a new low.

[Rummpd]

The bottom line is that on talent Bryant is slightly better and both have incredible drive and that "special something". Bryant when he wants to be can be a better defender than Manu but Manu is also pretty darn good.

Manu on many teams could average 25 points per game although one wonders if he could take the pounding of being the go to guy every night.

However, if Bryant came with the same contract, even with my love for Manu and all the passion and energy he brings + Manu's own considerable skill one - I would sadly have to grab Bryant and ship Manu to the Lakers (where he would prosper). Duncan and Bryant potentially could be the best duo the NBA has ever seen as Duncan with his unselfish play and Shaq like interior dominance + defensive intensity would be unreal. Duncan + Bryant + Parker = no coach = could ever pass up that trio taking in the equation Bryant has expressed support for Popovich in the past.

[ynh]

Your completely ignoring the fact that Shaq said himself that what kobe said was true.. Shaq.. who hates Kobe.. said it was true. Thats what you couldn't understand from my last post.. not that I'd expect you to understand it cause it pretty much destroys your attempt at killing the creditablity of the article.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

However, Shaq has never had a history of conflicting with his teammates like Kobe.

ever heard of penny hardaway?

Shaq has prospered in Miami, won a le, and he and Wade get along just fine.

shaq has prospered (not is prospering) in miami because he took it upon himself to do two things, both of which he didn't do in L.A. when he should have:

he lost weight and he relegated his role to be complimentary player.

However, with Manu exploding and becoming one of the absolute best guards in the league so far this year, would you REALLY want to risk the entire chemistry of the team?

And ur favoring ginobili's stats, which have been great so far this year, to kobe's career stats which are mind-boggling.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Yes. In a heart beat.

A better question:

Howard for TD.

[Medvedenko]

The bottom line is that on talent Bryant is slightly better and both have incredible drive and that "special something". Bryant when he wants to be can be a better defender than Manu but Manu is also pretty darn good.

Manu on many teams could average 25 points per game although one wonders if he could take the pounding of being the go to guy every night.

However, if Bryant came with the same contract, even with my love for Manu and all the passion and energy he brings + Manu's own considerable skill one - I would sadly have to grab Bryant and ship Manu to the Lakers (where he would prosper). Duncan and Bryant potentially could be the best duo the NBA has ever seen as Duncan with his unselfish play and Shaq like interior dominance + defensive intensity would be unreal. Duncan + Bryant + Parker = no coach = could ever pass up that trio taking in the equation Bryant has expressed support for Popovich in the past.

Well said Rummpd....well said...it would be too scary for both TD, Parker and Kobe for the league....especially with the other guys on your team, like Barry, Finley, Horry, and Bonner....it would be sick.

[LakeShow]

If they had the same contract, you'd be a fool not to.

Ditto!

[ArgSpursFan.]

Well said Rummpd....well said...it would be too scary for both TD, Parker and Kobe for the league....especially with the other guys on your team, like Barry, Finley, Horry, and Bonner....it would be sick.

It's funny how fast you show up as soon as somebody says something agreeing( in part) with your arguments.