Shams: Spurs Waive Josh Primo

[Dex]

Sorry for a stupid question/s but is Primo's career over in NBA? And/or with the Spurs?
Is there gonna be a trial? If he'll be cleared, is the Spurs still interested to sign him back or the organization is not interested anymore?

The reason why I'm asking is because it's a bit similar with Kobe's situation (rape accusation) before but it's not like Josh touched the victim/s, AFAIK.
Obviously he's not Kobe and Josh still a no name player so there's not much immunity on his part but I'm not sure how grave is his case in San Antonio, Texas.
Or is the NBA and the organization are being strict lately given with Miles' situation lately but Miles' situation is more serious.

I'm not saying what Josh did is okay and it's wrong but I'm quite curious as well if this happen to a player like Keldon or Devin if there'll be a double-standard.

His Spurs tenure is surely over for "culture and character" reasons.

But trust me, there are plenty of teams out there who will gladly overlook these things for a talented player.

, the Nets are bringing in Ime Udoka who was currently suspended and being investigated for sexual misconduct by Boston.

Deshaun Watson exposed himself to at least 30 women (that we know of) and he got a fat check from the Cleveland Browns who structured it in a way that his suspension didn't lose him money.

We'll see how everything shakes out legally, but I would not at all be surprised to see someone desperate enough to take a flyer on Primo in the future.

[Chinook]

I don't fully know how Primo's relationship with the Spurs will play out. If this lawsuit turns out to be basically nothing, and Primo has a real mental illness that he seeks real treatment for, I think the Spurs would be interested in him coming back. That's if this is as innocent as possible given what we know. I wouldn't hold my breath on it being that, though. There is probably some darkness we haven't seen yet, and if so, they probably wont want anything to do with him. That they cut him so completely suggests they are done with him, but they also left hints that they might not be. We'll see. I would assume Primo is done for this whole year and maybe next. The Spurs are paying him, and if he truly cares about getting his health back together, he should honestly use that time to that end.

[NickiRasgo]

His Spurs tenure is surely over for "culture and character" reasons.

But trust me, there are plenty of teams out there who will gladly overlook these things for a talented player.

, the Nets are bringing in Ime Udoka who was currently suspended and being investigated for sexual misconduct by Boston.

Deshaun Watson exposed himself to at least 30 women (that we know of) and he got a fat check from the Cleveland Browns who structured it in a way that his suspension didn't lose him money.

We'll see how everything shakes out legally, but I would not at all be surprised to see someone desperate enough to take a flyer on Primo in the future.

Thank you for your insight. I guess some teams are quite hesitant for the meantime since they'll have to eat up the remaining $8M on his contract but then, Primo told that he'll have to take a leave for the meantime.

I don't fully know how Primo's relationship with the Spurs will play out. If this lawsuit turns out to be basically nothing, and Primo has a real mental illness that he seeks real treatment for, I think the Spurs would be interested in him coming back. That's if this is as innocent as possible given what we know. I wouldn't hold my breath on it being that, though. There is probably some darkness we haven't seen yet, and if so, they probably wont want anything to do with him. That they cut him so completely suggests they are done with him, but they also left hints that they might not be. We'll see. I would assume Primo is done for this whole year and maybe next. The Spurs are paying him, and if he truly cares about getting his health back together, he should honestly use that time to that end.

Thank you for your insight as well and good point. I hope the Spurs are still in-touch with Primo and willing to help him long-term regardless if he'll join eventually to another team. I hope it's just the Spurs being cautious about their branding and culture that's why they had to cut him for the meantime. If he'll be signed again by the Spurs in the future, hope it's a friendly-deal.

I know I just have to move on with Primo but to think that there are plenty of teams monitoring Primo's situation means that're also interested with the upside of the kid so it's not like it's already a bad pick already in terms of his upside since still time will tell unless his NBA career is over but yeah, it's already a bad pick already tho I'm not sure aside from Sengun and Moody if who's the Spurs gonna pick. Those players are quite safe pick but seems Primo still has the interesting upside between the three (3) players.

I don't think it'll favor on Primo given that Primo didn't deny it as well but I think what he can do, which is likely, is that to agree on settlement and Primo should just take responsibility (assuming he doesn't require jail time), apologize to the people and/or organization involved and show that he'll be sincere to help them and himself. Primo did bad but deserve a second chance esp. if it's really related to a mental disorder or past trauma.

But yeah for the meantime, just expect less that the Spurs will bring him back.

[cd98]

On Spurs liability: Depends on whether Josh Primo could be said to engaging in the behavior in the course and scope of his employment. For example, did exposure happen during a Spurs-sanctioned therapy session? Did it happen at the Spurs facility? Did it happen at the therapist's office? Did it happen at his residence? The same thing goes for his behavior while on the road. Arguably the Spurs could be liable, but an employer does not have absolute liability for what his employee does. If there is a lawsuit, it is most likely against Primo and the Spurs may get dragged in, but absent them encouraging the behavior or allowing it to go on while he was in the scope of his employment, they will not be liable. They may settle just to get rid of the negative public relations hit and to save litigation costs and maybe even to protect Primo (a 19-year old) from further public embarrassment.

As for how to handle Primo going forward, I think that the problem must be significant because a therapist is trained to be compassionate and understanding of all types of anti-social behavior and hiring a lawsuit and dragging a client's problem out in the public is a bad way to lose professional standing in the community unless it was egregious behavior. Unfortunately, as is the case for sexual behavior like this, the recidivism for it so great that it may be a struggle he has for the rest of his life. It's not uncommon for men to want to expose themselves and it happens a lot on the internet, etc., but at some point judgment comes into play and while we all might have sexual feelings or thoughts that are taboo, judgment and wisdom help us make the decision to not engage in them. It seems that he is missing this component, especially knowing that the behavior could/and will cost him millions of dollars. It's good for him that this lawsuit happens and that he has consequences to learn that his behavior will not be excused just because he is good at basketball. But I still think he has a long journey to wrestle with the demons that told him the behavior was okay.

[baseline bum]

But trust me, there are plenty of teams out there who will gladly overlook these things for a talented player.

Yeah but we're talking about Primo.

[Dex]

Yeah but we're talking about Primo.

Boom, roasted

[baseline bum]

So when is this press conference supposed to happen?

[timvp]

This is a fascinating aspect of this whole thing. If Primo had some past trauma a diagnosed disorder of some kind, it puts the therapist in an interesting position. I am not claiming to have any experience or knowledge of this, I’m just thinking through it… but I don’t think a doctor would press charges or file suit against a patient who suffers from some kind of disorder (autism, for example) that may manifest itself in physical altercation. (Hopefully someone with direct knowledge can address this).

So this puts the therapist in a unique position. On one hand, she is suing (we assume) Primo and the Spurs for… something we don’t know yet (interestingly she is not attempting to press charges and as far as we know no police report has even been filed). If Primo’s actions were the result of some diagnosed condition, she would be the person best suited to testify to that… but she’s conflicted in that regard because she is suing, thus providing her the incentive to downplay any condition Primo may have.

Which leads to what many others have suggested, maybe she isn’t going after Primo at all but rather the Spurs for… something, we don’t yet know. I find it hard to believe though that the Spurs would not have protocols and SOPs in place for how to deal with workplace incidents and would be so foolish as to have wonton disregard for employee safety to the degree to leave them liable for the actions of one of their players.

Good stuff, thanks

It's an interesting mental rabbit hole to go down. For example, if this is how it played out, I don't even know who would be liable for what:

Spurs: Joshua, we got a report that you flashed someone. Is that true?

Primo: Oh, no, my bad. My towel slipped and it was totally an accident.

Spurs: Alright, make sure it doesn't happen again. You might be 18 but you're not a kid. You're in a grown man league. You need to act like it.

Primo: *expose part 2*

Spurs: WTF, Joshua. That's the second report!?!

Primo: Sorry! It's just a Canadian thing. We are more comfortable with nudity over there. Won't happen again.

Spurs: Hey, Dr. Sports Psychologist, can you talk to Joshua and see if you can get to the bottom of these exposure claims?

Primo: *expose part 3*

Psychologist: I talked to him and he exposed himself to me.

Spurs: Wow, that's terrible, he's usually such a great kid. Is he sick? Should we try to get him help?

Psychologist: *quits and calls Buzbee*







Obviously, this could be way off-base and for all we know Primo did stuff much worse than a towel-slip exposure, but no matter what, things will be messy and complicated. It's obviously some sort of mental health issue vs. mental health expert vs. whatever actions the Spurs did or didn't take.

[TXstbobcat]

So when is this press conference supposed to happen?

Thursday morning

[JeffDuncan]

So when is this press conference supposed to happen?

Tomorrow morning. I don’t find a time mentioned.

[TXstbobcat]

Tomorrow morning. I don’t find a time mentioned.

10 am on Thursday.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...e-on-thursday/

[baseline bum]

10 am on Thursday.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...e-on-thursday/

Tomorrow morning. I don’t find a time mentioned.

OK thanks. Don't know why I was thinking it was supposed to be today.

[JeffDuncan]

It occurs to me that the new jersey sponsor, Self, has got to be very unhappy about this. Recall that they made Primo the poster boy for the Self logo on the jersey (replacing the Frost logo.)

It should have been Keldon imo.

[Wu36]

She may have asked him what he did previously. And instead of telling he showed. Is that now a flashing? She asked and he delivered. I mean he seems to have issues, he’s said so himself.

[Maddog]

This is a fascinating aspect of this whole thing. If Primo had some past trauma a diagnosed disorder of some kind, it puts the therapist in an interesting position. I am not claiming to have any experience or knowledge of this, I’m just thinking through it… but I don’t think a doctor would press charges or file suit against a patient who suffers from some kind of disorder (autism, for example) that may manifest itself in physical altercation. (Hopefully someone with direct knowledge can address this).

So this puts the therapist in a unique position. On one hand, she is suing (we assume) Primo and the Spurs for… something we don’t know yet (interestingly she is not attempting to press charges and as far as we know no police report has even been filed). If Primo’s actions were the result of some diagnosed condition, she would be the person best suited to testify to that… but she’s conflicted in that regard because she is suing, thus providing her the incentive to downplay any condition Primo may have.

You bring up some valid points-
A therapist/medical provider would not normally bring this up in a public setting. So must be directed more at the Spurs organizational wise.
Also in what way was she interacting- her background at least states she is involved in performance enhancement and may not have been treating him or evaluating him for serious underlying psychopathology. This doesn't absolve Primo in any way.
I suspect the Spurs have some modest culpability. Even the best organizations have a tendency to not handle these things well. Especially if you thought highly of the preparator before facts come out.

[Ocotillo]

I haven't said much about this because like most of us on the board, all I know is what has shown up in the press and a other "rumors" Since we are crawling down all sorts of rabbit holes though, someone earlier in the thread said something about Louis CK. He wasn't just flashing, he was pleasuring himself in front of his victims. That has not been speculated about with Primo but who knows?

[The Truth #6]

This is a fascinating aspect of this whole thing. If Primo had some past trauma a diagnosed disorder of some kind, it puts the therapist in an interesting position. I am not claiming to have any experience or knowledge of this, I’m just thinking through it… but I don’t think a doctor would press charges or file suit against a patient who suffers from some kind of disorder (autism, for example) that may manifest itself in physical altercation. (Hopefully someone with direct knowledge can address this).

So this puts the therapist in a unique position. On one hand, she is suing (we assume) Primo and the Spurs for… something we don’t know yet (interestingly she is not attempting to press charges and as far as we know no police report has even been filed). If Primo’s actions were the result of some diagnosed condition, she would be the person best suited to testify to that… but she’s conflicted in that regard because she is suing, thus providing her the incentive to downplay any condition Primo may have.

Which leads to what many others have suggested, maybe she isn’t going after Primo at all but rather the Spurs for… something, we don’t yet know. I find it hard to believe though that the Spurs would not have protocols and SOPs in place for how to deal with workplace incidents and would be so foolish as to have wonton disregard for employee safety to the degree to leave them liable for the actions of one of their players.

I still stand by my hypothesis… the therapist reported an incident to the Spurs… they had an investigation performed which came back inconclusive, which caused her to quit. More incidents came to light and now there is cause for the damaged party to say “I brought this to light and the Spurs did nothing, so they are liable for everything that happened”. I believe that accusation is more damaging from a PR perspective than a legal perspective though. So long as an investigation was carried out properly, the Spurs would have little to no liability for not taking action on an incident they could not verify.

These situations are difficult and really SUCK from the company perspective. When one employee alleges an incident, these are the most likely outcomes of an investigation:

1. Investigation conclusively verifies the allegation. You appropriate discipline the offending party and make the appropriate moves to protect the victim against retaliation/further exposure if the discipline fall short of termination. This is the cleanest scenario.
2. Investigation is inconclusive or cannot credibly verify the incident. This is usually does not end in the victim saying “oh , I must have been mistaken, thanks for looking into it.” Instead this typically leads to a LOT of hard feelings, many times it leads in the victim leaving. What you don’t want to do as a company is apply unjust punishment to the alleged perp (a suspension may be appropriate as often you can pin them for something else than the alleged incident - at the very least of not acting in a manner consistent with the expectations of their position). If you discipline too hard, you face being accused of unlawful termination (even if you don’t terminate).

The worst case scenarios for the Spurs, neither of which I think is likely because I think they are too smart for this as an organization:

1. They investigated the incident, it was confirmed, and they did nothing to Primo. That’s bad.
2. They retaliated against the therapist by terminating or not renewing her contact as a way to solve the problem (if you can’t work with Primo, we understand… I guess you can’t work here). The more I think of it… this might be the angle. Which would also be very bad.

Companies the size of SS&E don’t typically make these kind of boneheaded mistakes in 2022… but sometimes they do…

Impressive response. This is a tangent for me, but I think it’s definitely odd that the psychologist works for the team and isn’t acting like a typical therapist where they are paid by the patient/client. It’s ethically weird. I trust the Spurs typically, but the more I think about this, I’m having challenges with a mental health professional suing a client they are supposed to be helping, especially in the absence of a legal charge. I don’t think that’s the reason the lawyer is targeting the Spurs, obviously, in doing so this may put less focus on Primo. Honestly, I could see him saying he has an alcohol problem and trying to downplay the issue that way, and if he went that way I could see a path back, maybe not with the Spurs, though they have their experience with alcoholics. Anyway. Just rambling.

[baseline bum]

She may have asked him what he did previously. And instead of telling he showed. Is that now a flashing? She asked and he delivered. I mean he seems to have issues, he’s said so himself.

And then she asked him about getting into fights as a kid so he beat her down to show her.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Remember when streaking was a thing?

People usually just got a laugh out of it.

[Chinook]

Good stuff, thanks

It's an interesting mental rabbit hole to go down. For example, if this is how it played out, I don't even know who would be liable for what:

Spurs: Joshua, we got a report that you flashed someone. Is that true?

Primo: Oh, no, my bad. My towel slipped and it was totally an accident.

Spurs: Alright, make sure it doesn't happen again. You might be 18 but you're not a kid. You're in a grown man league. You need to act like it.

Primo: *expose part 2*

Spurs: WTF, Joshua. That's the second report!?!

Primo: Sorry! It's just a Canadian thing. We are more comfortable with nudity over there. Won't happen again.

Spurs: Hey, Dr. Sports Psychologist, can you talk to Joshua and see if you can get to the bottom of these exposure claims?

Primo: *expose part 3*

Psychologist: I talked to him and he exposed himself to me.

Spurs: Wow, that's terrible, he's usually such a great kid. Is he sick? Should we try to get him help?

Psychologist: *quits and calls Buzbee*



Obviously, this could be way off-base and for all we know Primo did stuff much worse than a towel-slip exposure, but no matter what, things will be messy and complicated. It's obviously some sort of mental health issue vs. mental health expert vs. whatever actions the Spurs did or didn't take.

So long as we're fanficking nothing-burger scenarios:

Four Seasons Incident: *Happens*

Spurs: WTF is that Primo?

Primo: Man, I'm going to be completely accountable here. I had some horrible childhood trauma that manifests in some deviant sexual behavior. I know it's an issue, and I've been trying to get help.

Spurs: You're a good kid, Josh. Why don't you sit this game out, and we'll talk to our therapist to come up with a plan.

Primo: Um... I don't know about that, guys. What would we tell the media?

Spurs: I don't know, we'll tell them your glute was spasming or something

Spurs: Psychologist, Primo flashed a woman in Minny. He says he's been struggling to deal with childhood trauma. Have he opened up to you about this?

Psychologist: Yes, he exposed himself to me too.

Spurs: Seriously?

Psychologist: Yes. Primo isn't dealing with trauma. He's a predator who has no business on the team.

Spurs: You don't think he can get help? He seems like a good kid.

Psychologist: Look, if you don't trust my professional opinion, I quit. You can't expose your staff to a guy like that.

Spurs: Fine, we accept your resignation. But we need to consult a second-opinion doctor before making a dramatic move.

Psychologist: You're not taking this seriously. Don't call me again. You'll hear from my lawyer.

Spurs Legal: Dump Primo

Spurs: But..

Spurs Legal: No "buts". Dump him. Maybe this blows over. Maybe it doesn't. But he's not worth the hit. If he flashes someone else while he's on the team, there'll be to pay. Not. Worth. The. Risk.

[Chinook]

Just to be clear, in that fanfic, Primo's actually lying about taking accountability, and the psychologist is right in her assessment that Primo should be cut. The Spurs' reluctance to agree immediately causes her to file suit. The Spurs may consult a second opinion or get word of another incident. But in the very least, they don't believe Primo like they did before and cut him on the advice of Legal.

[cd98]

The Spurs are not 100% liable for everything Primo did wherever he was. I'm not overly versed in the law in this area, but if an employee exceeds the scope of his employment, the employer is no longer liable for his acts. If the Spurs assigned Primo to driving the team bus with the players in it and he crashes it into a parked car, then he was acting in the scope and both he and the Spurs are liable to the owner of the parked car. If Primo steals the team bus and takes it for a joy ride and crashes into a parked car, then he has acted outside the scope of his employment, and he is liable to both the owner of the parked car and the Spurs.

There are some close calls on this. If Primo punched a guy at the 4 Seasons b/c he didn't want to sign an autograph, are the Spurs liable? He's in the hotel because of the team game in Minnesota, but he is not representing the Spurs in the lobby as part of his employment with the Spurs and he isn't doing a team function to sign autographs. So I would say it is less likely the team would be liable.

Point is, it comes down to facts we don't know. If Primo was at the Spurs facility, then there is a greater chance of liability. If he was at his home or at the therapist's office, then those could take him out of the scope of his employment. Lots of facts are needed.

But the therapist's attorney knows that digging in the weeds in this is costly and uncertain. He's going the public embarrassment route because people prefer to keep taboo sexual behavior secret and will pay a premium to do it. I assume that is the route they are going. I don't think you want to try a case in Bexar County against the Spurs. That said, if the exposure happened on the road, then victims would have the option of suing him in another city.

[Wu36]

And then she asked him about getting into fights as a kid so he beat her down to show her.

Doubt it went that far. But dude changes in locker rooms, is around way more medical staff than normal people, she’s called a doctor. None of us know the whole story. I’d like to know when she left. And much more.

[cd98]

Remember when streaking was a thing?

People usually just got a laugh out of it.

No, they arrest people for that. You only see them running on the field. Once they cross, they are jumped by police and arrested. Exposing yourself is a crime. But there is something more inherently troublesome when you are exposing yourself to someone in particular instead of a crowd. There are some implicit threats in that. I'm not saying he's evil or a bad kid. You can be a good person, but struggle with sexual behavior. It's just that there is a part of our brain that tells us that even though we may feel like doing something taboo, it would be very unwise to do it and so we don't. When people do act out, they struggle with that rational thought process.

[MultiTroll]

Thank you for your insight. I guess some teams are quite hesitant for the meantime since they'll have to eat up the remaining $8M on his contract but then, Primo told that he'll have to take a leave for the meantime.

This is what I've read so far:

"When a player is waived, their remaining salary — which in the NBA is guaranteed if a player sticks on his team past Jan. 10 — remains on the books for their original team. If a player is especially motivated to leave his current situation, they can forfeit salary in order to make a buyout more appealing for the team."

Since Primo did not stay with Spurs beyond Jan 10, don't know what that means.

exctatic probably knows.