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Damn, in that case I guess we better trade Duncan.
What's your logic MIA?
Damn, in that case I guess we better trade Duncan.
We win with Malik.
How come we didn't win those years, when Malik played lots of minutes???
God take your lips off malik's richard for five goddamn minutes already.
You make me sound like a in pop basher compared to your manlove for Rose.
WTF is yours????What's your logic
Other than you and spurgal taking turns getting rammed by Rosey.
Oh I missed the late edit...
I asked for your logic to see if you oversimplify your own logic like you do those you argue with...
There is no comparison between Malik Rose and those talents you mentioned...there is also no comparison between those guys and Nazr Mohammed...but I will tell you what separates many of those superstars from one another...their supporting cast...guys like Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed.
Malik Rose and Nazr Mohammed are comparable players and stats are essentially meaningless with role players so all you can do is judge them by how sucessful they have been in their roles on teams, moments, leadership, chemistry.....
Malik Rose has been a bench player backing up a pair of Hall of Famers on a perennial le contender for the bulk of his career...a player who in his last bout with FA was pursued by the defending champion LA Lakers...
Nazr Mohammed has been a bench player on lottery teams for the bulk of his career and he's pretty much been passed around like a crack ....
I can find a lot of Malik's teamates and coaches that talk about what Malik brings in term of chemistry...Just fine me one that says something similar about Nazr.
Malik Rose is Tim Duncan's best friend...when David Robinson was asked who would assume his type of leadership on the team after his retirment...he said Malik Rose.
What it all boils down too...Malik has been a valued, beloved and important member of two championship teams backing up a couple of Hall of Famers...Nazr wasn't even valued by lottery teams.
Yet another Rose hater that can't read...if you could you would see that MIA posted it for you.
Because we weren't a good enough team to win in those years. But obviously Malik wasn't the reason why...
You do realize that the years we didn't win les were Pop's fault right?God take your lips off malik's richard for five goddamn minutes already.
You make me sound like a in pop basher compared to your manlove for Rose.
I mean even using your whinings...Pop was the guy that played Malik those huge minutes.
First of all, you are all over the board and in crazy Whottt mode, so I don't want to be associated with you in this thread. I was following your train of thought for a bit but then you went too far and stopped making sense.
Second of all, you should have given up after you used the blocks to fouls ratio or whatever.
I told you that the signing of Horry meant the end of Rose.You never told me that...although I do admit to sending you a PM, after the trade, saying I finally figured out why you didn't like Horry, when I never could before....
As for their ability to play together...We were off to the best start in team history when they were both getting PT.
Just because Pop couldn't handle the talent doesn't mean they couldn't play well together...Again, we got off to the best start in team history.
You know this. But you wouldn't listen to me and went on some weird "Pop can play them both" tangent.
I've been taking on and winning massive "pileons" since you were a troll at the WOAI boards. If you want to check some of my work, look up the Ron Mercer threads when I said he was going to get waived. I had everyone and their moms on me saying I was crazy.
, did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.
But Pop did.
in crazy Whottt mode
Timvp, this is what Pop said in the article kori posted in the other thread:: , did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.
But Pop did.
"Popovich is considering using Ginobili off the bench to slowly work him up to his 30-minute average."
How the do you conclude Manu will come of the bench for the rest of the season, based on the above quote?
1. I wasn't comparing Rose or Nazr to Garnett, Brand, etc. I was making a point you completely missed, apparently. That is, saying one player is more valueable than another because he has more rings (ESPECIALLY role players) is stunningly short sighted; and is a perfect example of selective use of logic and facts you have used in this entire thread. It MAY be true, but there is not the direct correllation you imply. I have simply applied your logic to a more extreme set of players in order to prove the point, as it has become readily apparent that subtlety is lost on you.
2. What is so difficult to uderstand about the concept of teams needs changing as personell change? Malik was a great back-up energy big man when he was playing behind Duncan and Robinson and really needed to only provide solid bursts of energy while spelling Big Dave and Tim. With Rasho and Duncan, the back up needs have changed. The Spurs now need somebody who can play consistently longer minutes for those nights that Rasho forgets his balls at home, and starts to suck the entire team down with his listless play. In essence, the Spurs need a back-up center more than a back-up undersized four that isn't professional enough to know and play his role; and therefore often doesn't even get off the bench.
A taller big man like Nazr more closely fits this need. Rose was the player available to make the trade happen.
3. You have a vision of Malik from the Mutombo facial in the 2003 finals. In case you've missed it because you head has been buried in the sand, over the past two seasons Malik played, generously, only about 10% of his games at that level. If he brought that high level of compe iveness within the role the coaches expected him to fill consistently over the past two years, he would still be a Spur. But he didn't.
timvp are you staking your basketball a en reputation on Manu coming off the bench in the playoffs?
I hope no one questions Malik's contributions to the Spurs. But like many other players, including superstars like Gervin and Silas, it was time for him to go.
Malik had shown improvement over the years, going from single digit minutes to his top of 24 mpg in 2002-03, but this year (and last) his playing minutes dropped to 17mpg (and that's what he's getting in NY so far by the way). There has to be a reason and I don't think it was because we brought in an old geezer like Horry. If you admit that Horry deserved Malik's minutes then something went wrong with Malik's game.
I'd like to suggest that his success had gone to his head a little bit. He began holding the ball to get his shot and often wound up mishandling it. Statistically he had his worst year in FG% in 2003-2004 since he came into the league.
Since Malik's role on a much worse team is still that of a backup with the same minutes per game--with lower stats in FG%, Rebounds, PPG and slightly higher stats in FT%, Fouls and TOs, it's hard to see how his coming or going makes much difference to either team other than the character issue of being a good guy in the locker room and the town.
Oh--and the big contract that is now off our back.
^^^ U make way too much sense.
"Since Malik's role on a much worse team is still that of a backup with the same minutes per game"
Just as it's way too early to judge Nazrs' role/contriibtion @SAS, it's still way too early to judge Malik's @NYK.
Bingo. And the enless banter debating both players worth is pointless. The phrase, "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind. But as a thread, this horse was never useful for transportation to begin with.
When I mentioned the possibility of Manu coming off the bench, the Manu Defenders went ape and said it would never happen again. That Pop would never bench Manu this season.
Odds are, Manu will start in the playoffs. There'd just be too many riots if Pop switched Manu to coming off the bench at this point of the season.
However, I do think it'd be a smart move. And I do think it could actually happen. Imagine this scenario:
Manu comes back and for about five games, Pop has him coming off the bench. Barry continues to play his best ball of the season and Devin finds ways to contribute next to Manu off the bench.
Pop tells the media he's going to keep bringing Manu off the bench to rest him for the postseason. But the Spurs keep winning and all the players are playing well, including Manu who is playing 28-30 minutes off the bench ... including almost the entire fourth quarter.
With a couple games to go in the season, Pop says he's going to stick with the current rotation for the playoffs. Manu comes out and says something like, "I'm a little disappointed about not starting because every basketball player wants to start, but I'll do what is best for the team. If that means coming off the bench, I'll do that."
The Spurs go on and play very well in the playoffs and Manu becomes the ultimate weapon off the bench, perhaps even being named Finals MVP from off the bench.
Could that happen?
Answer me that.
Wouldn't Manu get tired playing 12 straight minutes?
Key word being "almost".
P.S.
You don't think that scenario is possible?
Honestly, I prefer Manu off the bench, as recall that's what he did when we won in 03' yes? Anyway that is the beauty of this organization, Manu will be the same Manu whether he starts or not. Like all of these debates, it ends like this: IT DOSEN'T MATTER WHO STARTS, IT'S WHO FINISHES THAT MATTERS. A WIN IS A WIN EITHER WAY! By the way I thought this was a Nazr thread, wasn't it?
First of all, you are all over the board and in crazy Whottt mode, so I don't want to be associated with you in this thread. I was following your train of thought for a bit but then you went too far and stopped making sense.
Second of all, you should have given up after you used the blocks to fouls ratio or whatever.
TimVP, a man has the right to backtrack and reverse field all he wants, so be my guest, it's not like I am going to ask you to change your le over it or anything
Fortunately what you do has nothing to do with the accuracy of my stances. A. AHF, TPark and the like are seriously over-rating Mohammed when they say he has good hands and is a good passer. B.Trading for Nazr made it more difficult for us to win a le this year given the differences in playoff and team experience. And they are accurate stances. As was my stance that the trades Isiah Thomas pulled off, and Malik Rose, would help improve his team(I guess I know more than AHF's scout friend does)...
As for blocks to fouls...we were comparing Horry and Nazr...I could easily prove Horry is more of a shotblocker than Nazr just by citing his career averages and seasonal block totals...but I had the luxury of proving it another way and so I did so...
Blocks to Personal Fouls is measured stat, whether you guys have heard of it before or not...
Look:
Blocks to PF ratio at ESPN
As you can see by Duncan's prominence in that category it is more than just a garbage stat...
That stat does have relevance when you are talking about a difference of .26 blocks per game...
But you guys can go ahead and keep laughing...the joke is on you. I can't help it if you guys can't see how there could be a correlation between trying to block a shot and picking up a personal foul.
BTW, Horry is a better shotblocker than Nazr. It may change soon enough due to Horry's age...but he's still a better shotblocker for now.
Sorry but I struggle with taking Pop's deficiencies as a coach into account when favtoring whether something will or won't work...I told you that the signing of Horry meant the end of Rose.
You know this. But you wouldn't listen to me and went on some weird "Pop can play them both" tangent.
It was not sharing minutes that was the problem...It's Pop stupidly giving Malik or Horry a DNPCD in a game we lose that creates the confusion and the problem.
As you just admitted...Pop obviously can't handle too much talent...why is that a weird tangent? I'd say it's a serious flaw and the main reason this team has underachieved it's talent level this season...Had this been Stephen Jackson's second year with the Spurs he wouldn't make it off the bench on this team.
Last edited by whottt; 03-20-2005 at 03:07 PM.
I was never a troll at WOAI...I made nick there to harass a troll(named Conan). I was then, as I am now, a Spurfan to the core.
I've been taking on and winning massive "pileons" since you were a troll at the WOAI boards. If you want to check some of my work, look up the Ron Mercer threads when I said he was going to get waived. I had everyone and their moms on me saying I was crazy.
The Mercer one was good...you were right Pop did waive Mercer...and I was right in saying Pop was setting us up for ANOTHER post season perimeter choke job.
But you have had some good pileon threads...so consider your point proved.
I always give credit when someone is proved right.
Another good one...you seem to be very in touch with what Pop will or won't do...that doesn't mean it's the right move to make., did you see how many people got mad at me when I said Manu should come off the bench to better utilize his minutes? My own wife didn't even agree with me.
But Pop did.
And rest assured...putting Manu back on the bench would be a mistake this time around.
You made a screwy comparison and attributed it to me...and it sure as did look like you were equivalating Malik Rose to Kevin Garnett on my behalf.
Rings do matter more with key reserves and role players than Superstars...it's the key reserves/role players that make the difference on le winning teams with equivalent SuperStars.....
Or can't you tell the difference between Vinny Del Negro and Mario Elie? Between Jack and Hedo? Steve Kerr and Charlie Ward?
What Malik's two rings do is PROVE that he can be a key member of an NBA le team, he is EXPERIENCED....while Nazr's lack threrof leave him UNPROVEN and INEXPERIENCED...and that is the seminal point I am trying to make with you here. Not that Nazr sucks(because I really don't think he does), or that Malik Rose is god.
Just that, one is proven, the other isn't. And trading a PROVEN and EXPERIENCED commodity for an UNPROVEN and INEXPERIENCED one, when you are the top le favorite, IS A GAMBLE(and one that wasn't necessary). And that's my point.
Has Nazr Mohammed ever been EXPERIENCED? Well Malik Rose has
2. What is so difficult to uderstand about the concept of teams needs changing as personell change? Malik was a great back-up energy big man when he was playing behind Duncan and Robinson and really needed to only provide solid bursts of energy while spelling Big Dave and Tim. With Rasho and Duncan, the back up needs have changed. The Spurs now need somebody who can play consistently longer minutes for those nights that Rasho forgets his balls at home, and starts to suck the entire team down with his listless play. In essence, the Spurs need a back-up center more than a back-up undersized four that isn't professional enough to know and play his role; and therefore often doesn't even get off the bench.
A taller big man like Nazr more closely fits this need. Rose was the player available to make the trade happen.
We've had taller players than Malik...they weren't better than he was...so I don't get your point.
Why not just take Marks off the bench if size is the need...he can dunk better and get more putbacks than Malik Rose also.
See, two can oversimplify
Weak Point. Sorry but it is. "Bigger is better" os weak compared to the points I am making about a player being proven.
Again, you are wrong...Malik had the best game of his career last year...when Duncan was injured early in the season Malik lead the entire NBA FTA per game.3. You have a vision of Malik from the Mutombo facial in the 2003 finals. In case you've missed it because you head has been buried in the sand, over the past two seasons Malik played, generously, only about 10% of his games at that level. If he brought that high level of compe iveness within the role the coaches expected him to fill consistently over the past two years, he would still be a Spur. But he didn't.
What changed was the way Malik was used and the chances he was given...Malik's play didn't change...He still stepped up when he was needed...like he always did. The difference was that when Pop got pissed at him he had the Horry option that he had never had before....and that's great...it's wonderful to have options...
But that doesn't excuse leaving a proven LA beater on the bench while Horry and Rasho are getting butt ed by Shaq. Malik not being given the same opportunities last season doesn't mean his game changed.
A better point along this line is the one many are making about Pop won't play Malik so what good does it do to have him here? I tend to think that's more of a Pop fault than a Malik fault but that's just me.
Last edited by whottt; 03-20-2005 at 03:05 PM.
If the stat has real relevance, then explain what it means to you, rather than using the "ESPN has it" reason.. or the "Tim Duncan looks good with that stat so it must be relevant" reason.
I can suggest that a possible benefit of not getting called for fouls on contested shots may encourage a less restrained approach to shot-blocking, but so what? Most of the fouls I've seen Nazr called for have been while he is still on the floor. Blocking fouls, screen fouls, etc. and not on jumping to block or contest shots. It's a fairly low-indicator stat. If not, why not with clear, meaningful reasons?
Defensive presence in the lane & the cornerstone of the Spurs defense is RULE 1: Force people away from the lane. That is where high percentage shots take place. Shot blocking ability is only part of defensive lane presence. AK47, or even Gerald Wallace is a better shot blocker than Nazr or Robert but that doesn't mean they alter shots and defend the paint better.
Sometimes Robert gambles and he can be rooted out of position. He's a tall SF too slow to defend 3s any more, so he plays PF. He does a lot with what he has and he's very smart in creating loose balls and playing screens out on the floor, but he's not the staunch lane presence Nazr is. Malik was more of a lane presence than Robert is but neither restrict airspace, leaping nor standing still like Nazr does.
Let's just see how things go the rest of the season on Opp FG%. That should tell us a lot more than BPPF does, or will ever tell us.
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