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Holder said he didn't know. Why don't we just take everyone's word for it?
That's not how justice works. You need actual evidence.
ing dumbass.
It's hearsay. If all it would take is the agent's testimony/allegations to convict anybody, there would be no need for do ents.
This is basic stuff. Works the same regardless of party colors, tbh.
Holder said he didn't know. Why don't we just take everyone's word for it?
That's not how justice works. You need actual evidence.
ing dumbass.
Is Yoni mike vanderboegh?
I'm not even defending Holder or Barry or the administration in general, but I'm trolling?
You know, it might not be what you want to hear, but it's the reality of it. Without actual do ents stating F&F was an uncontrolled operation, there's no big scandal.
I'm not even saying those do ents don't exist... we just haven't seen them yet and that's a fact.
I think it's already been established it was uncontrolled. The question is, why was it uncontrolled.
Well, Holder said he didn't know in 2011 and evidence was produced proving he was off by several months.
What's been established is that some guns walked uncontrolled. It just hasn't been proven as to whether the entire operation was uncontrolled. Otherwise there's no need for do entation, they would already have it.
Which is exactly what I'm saying. The sole reason we both know Holder lied is because evidence was presented that contradicted what he said. An email, an actual do ent.
There's no such do ent backing up the testimony of the ATF agents. I suspect that's exactly what the commission is after. Or any do ent describing what really happened. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying there's no such do ent available yet.
No, it's been established as an uncontrolled operation.
From Holder's letter to Obama requesting he invoke Executive Privilege:
February 4 is the date of the letter Holder sent to Congress stating Fast & Furious wasn't an uncontrolled operation in which guns were deliberately allowed to walk across the border into Mexico.“The Committee has made clear that its contempt resolution will be limited to internal Department ‘do ents from after February 4, 2011, related to the Department’s response to Congress.’”
Holder withdrew that letter on December 2, 2011 because he "discovered" that wasn't true.
In December of 2011, Holder admitted the operation was uncontrolled. What the committee wants to know is how the decision to withdraw the letter evolved and to what extent administration officials may have been engaged in wrongdoing to try and cover the mess up after February 4, 2011.
Ten months is a long time -- particularly when everyone but other Democrats and the media are demanding answers.
As Holder has admitted, the gun walking was intentional. The questions now appear to be, why and to what extent were senior administration officials involved in the operation or its clean up?
That's what the do ents probably contain.
If the Committee wanted to know about the operation itself, I suspect they would have expanded their subpoena to at least before Agent Terry was murdered in December 2010 -- or earlier.
No such thing.
Actually, the request from Holder has to do with protecting the internal deliberations post Feb 4, which don't involve F&F per se, but the actual responses to Congress. Agree with your recollection of the Feb 4 letter.
Disagree. He allegedly discovered that some of it might not have been true. We don't know the extent of it (some guns, the entire operation). That's exactly why Issa is requesting the do entation post Feb 4.
Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing.
People have more real concerns, like the money in their pockets, but that's a different topic.
Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing, at least not on the whole operation.
This is true. legalizing pot will not stop them.
You will be hard pressed to find very many conservatives who actually want pot illegal, but almost all conservatives will say throw the book at coke and heroin dealers.
I think in that executive order, Obama signed away the 2012 election. I think republicans will sink him hard with that, unless he finds a believable scapegoat.
Ewww...burrrnnn....typical lib.....well at least you can read and maybe you will comprehend what they are telling you.
"Thanks for posting, I guess"
Gowdy just destroyed your defense and that's all you got?
Holder agreed the part of the memo that said they make every effort to interdict guns and that they didn't allow guns to walk was false.
It was uncontrolled. I don't know why you think it's important to know if ALL guns were allowed to walk; we know enough did to end up at the scenes of hundreds of murders, including Agent Terry's.
In the text of the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress.
Holder isn't a budget official or an economic advisor, he's the AG. What do you think are the concerns of Agent Terry's family or the families of all toes dead Mexican nationals?
Right there the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress. He didn't say some guns accidentally got across the border, he admitted it was by design.
Last edited by Yonivore; 06-21-2012 at 08:14 AM.
But then you go into spin control. It's wrong and leave it at that. Obama is going to lose the election. You and fellow democrats need to send a message to your party. This behavior is unacceptable. Hopefully you will find a candidate in 2016 that has integrity. God blessI'm on the record saying Holder is lying and Barry pulling this is terrible.
Issa holding up the investigation
"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."
I used google search to for US guns and Mexican stats..there were quite a few..Mexican Violence Fueled by American Guns
AFP/Getty Share Print article Share on emailEmail article Comments (34) Adam Clark Estes 4,451 Views
Jun 14, 2011
The violence in Mexico is getting out of hand, and American guns are fueling the bloodshed. According to a report released Monday by three U.S. senators, at least 70 percent of the guns recovered by Mexican authorities in 2009 and 2010 can be traced back to the United States. The report, "Halting U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico" by Democratic Senators Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer and Sheldon Whitehouse, takes a strong position on Congress's inaction in quelling the flow of American assault rifles. Mexican President Felipe Calderon has made repeated requests for stricter gun laws to prevent continued bloodshed.
The morgues are overflowing in San Fernando, which along a road locals call "the highway of death." Many bus companies have cancelled that route between the Tamaulipas state capital Ciudad Victoria and Brownsville, Texas, and few journalists dare venture into the area without military escorts.
Calderon blames the United States, at least for the guns. Though the proportionate amount of weapons coming out of the U.S. has dropped to 70 percent from the 85 percent reported in 2009, it's tough to argue against the Mexican president Along those lines, the American ban on assault rifles lifted in 2004 contributed to the e in bloodshed. "You can clearly see how the violence began to grow in 2005, and of course it has gone on an upward spiral in the last six years," Calderon said in a speech to Mexican-Americans in San Jose, California on Saturday. The drug wars are also costing Calderon tremendous political capital in Mexico, where protestors, like the one pictured above, march almost daily against his inability to control the situation.
This week's Senate report recommends stricter laws around assault rifles, especially military-style weapons imported from Eastern Europe, and points to gun shows as a source of these types of weapons. The point is not lost on President Calderon. "I accuse the U.S. weapons industry of (responsibility for) the deaths of thousands of people that are occurring in Mexico," Calderon said Saturday. "It is for profit, for the profits that it makes for the weapons industry."
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...an-guns/38798/
so the feigned outrage by the yoni's of the world is laughable..
so now issa wants 1300 do ents relating to a Feb. 4th email... definitely not a politically motivated circus... lol
It will be great day when he wins re-election and you disappear from this forum..lol
hundreds or murders? wtf is that?
From the London Telegraph
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...mas-watergate/
The Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate
By Tim Stanley
Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold do ents related to the “gun walking” operation – do ents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President.
Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about – and for the uninitiated, be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to “walk” across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers. According to the Oversight Committee’s report, “The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.”
Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within Mexico.
It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.
So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is the heavy handed way that the administration has handled criticism. Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hi-jacked by Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs (because Obama is o-so very good at generating those). But there has been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did the do ents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?
Again, it’s important to contextualise. Executive privilege has been invoked 24 times since Ronald Reagan, and attempts to over-ride it rarely reach the courts. Moreover, Holder’s request for executive privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF. Nevertheless, by refusing to sack Holder or push him to come clean, Obama may have made a very Nixonian mistake.
A lot of conservatives are writing at the moment that not only is Obama turning into Nixon Mark II, but Obama is much worse because no one actually got killed during Watergate. The comparison is based on the myth that Nixon ordered the Watergate break in and that’s what he eventually had to resign over. But that’s not true. Nixon’s guilt was in trying to pervert the course of justice by persuading the FBI to drop its investigation of the crime. Mistake number one, then, was to involve the White House in covering up the errors of a separate, autonomous political department. Mistake number two was that when Congress discovered that evidence about the scandal might be recorded on the White House bugging system, Nixon invoked executive privilege to protect the tapes. In both cases, it was the cover up that destroyed Tricky – not the original crime.
And, forty years later almost to the day, here we have Obama making the same mistake. Perhaps it’s an act of chivalry to stand by Holder; perhaps it’s an admission of guilt. Either way, it sinks the Oval Office ever further into the swamp that is Fast and Furious. Make no mistake about: Fast and Furious was perhaps the most shameful domestic law and order operation since the Waco siege. It’s big government at its worst: big, incompetent and capable of ruining lives.
Rachel Maddow address Youni, CC and WC directly
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908...show/#47898272
Actually it may help him. It distracts attention from his ed up handling of the economy.
how did HUSSEIN mishandle the economy?
It's a Repug economy, ed up with Repug war, Repug tax cuts, Repug deregulation of finance, Repug states laying off 100Ks of public employees, Repugs blocking any stimulus appropriate to the size of the Banksters' Great Depression, etc, etc.
You are absolutely right, Hair Man. It's only been speculated Fast and Furious guns have been involved in hundreds of murders in Mexico. If I remember, I'll use the term "allegedly" whenever I refer to the crimes in the future.
Mexican officials, however, put the number in the hundreds:
Attorney General in Mexico: 200 Murders Result of Operation Fast and Furious
So far as I know, Fast and Furious guns have only been confirmed to have been involved in less than a dozen crime scenes (Sorry, I don't know how many murders were committed at each scene), one of which was the brother of the Chihuahuan Attorney General and another U.S. Federal Agent Terry.
Also, Holder is not willing to say how many of the estimated 68,000 U.S. guns, in Mexico, are ones that got there through Fast and Furious. But, he did allow, the number of deaths related to the operation is probably going to rise.
So, again, you're right, no one can definitively say there have been hundreds of Mexican nationals killed by Fast and Furious guns.
Tell me, Afro, what would be an acceptable number of such deaths? At what point do you want those responsible to be held accountable?
Last edited by Yonivore; 06-21-2012 at 10:06 AM.
I disagree.
Romney will probably stay on message.
At best, Obama's attention will be divided between responding to the Romney campaign's message on his failure economically while also having to respond to his Nixonian invocation of Executive Privilege.
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