Reply With Quote
Just click the link.
I do read them and find some of them interesting, the 121 pager I skimmed over. So what not read this one yourself and see what you think.
*
138.*The* data* derive* from* a* much* more* extensive* survey* of* legal* firearms* owner‐
ship* in* numerous* nations* which* was* carried* out* by* researchers* provided* by* the*
Government* of* Canada* under* the* au es* of* the* United* Nations* Economic* and*
Social* Council,* Commission* on* Crime* Prevention* and* Criminal* Justice* in* 1997.* The*
entire* survey* is* published* as* a* report* to* the* Secretary* General* on* April* 25,* 1997* as*
E/CN.15/1997/4.* That*report*is*analysed*in* some* detail* in*an*unpublished* paper* (“A*
Cross* Sectional* Study* of* the* Relationship* Between* Levels* of* Gun* Ownership* and*
Violent* Deaths”)* written* by* the* leading* English* student* of* firearms* regulation,* re‐
tired* Chief* Superintendent* of* English* police* Colin* Greenwood* of* the* Firearms* Re‐
search* and* Advisory* Service.* We* are* indebted* to* Chief* Superintendent* Greenwood*
for* the* opportunity* to* review* his* paper.* Note* that* in* the* table* which* follows* we*
have*focused*only*on*European*nations.**
139.*The* gun* ownership* data* in* Table* 4* derive* from* a* random* telephone* survey*
on* gun* ownership* in* various* nations.* Chief* Superintendent* Greenwood’s* paper* is*
contemptuous* of* such* data,* in* part* because* people* may* be* unwilling* to* acknowl‐
edge* owning* guns* to* telephoning* pollsters.* For* similar* doubts* see* Don* B.* Kates* &*
Daniel* D.* Polsby,* Long* Term* Non‐Relationship* of* Firearm* Availability* to* Homicide,* 4*
HOMICIDE* STUD.* 185–201* (2000).* But* that* was* in* the* context* of* comparing* survey*
data* on* the* number* of* guns* owned* to* production* and* important* data* that* are* un‐
questionably*more*comprehensive*and*superior*in*ev ery*way.*Chief*Superintendent*
Greenwood* himself* admits* that* the* special* U.N.* report* data* are* not* necessarily*
*
690* Harvard*Journal*of*Law*&*Public*Policy* [Vol.*30*
nations* also* come* from* their* governments* as* do* the* similar* data* in* Tables* 4*
and* 5,* but* for* later* years,* and* also* include* data* on* the* number* of* firearm*
homicides* and* firearm* suicides* which* are* not* available* from* the* U.N.* source*
used*in*Tables*4*and*5.*
**This*may*well*be*an*undercount*because*an*Austri an*license*is*not*limited*
to*a*single*firearm*but*rather*allows*the*licensee *to*possess*multiple*guns.*
***The* source* from* which* Table* 5* derives* also* gives* figures* for* Finland,*
which* we* have* omitted* there* because* they* are* earlier* and* closely* similar* ex‐
cept* in* one* respect:* instead* of* official* ownership* figures* for* guns,* they* give* a*
survey‐based*figure*for*households*having*a*gun:*2 3.2%.*
*
These* comparisons* are* reinforced* by* Table* 6,* which* gives* differ‐
ently* derived* (and* non‐comparable)* gun* ownership* rates,* overall*
murder* rates,* and* rates* of* gun* murder,* for* a* larger* set* of* European*
nations.140* Table* 6* reveals* that* even* though* Sweden* has* more* than*
double* the* rate* of* gun* ownership* as* neighboring* Germany,* as* well*
as* more* gun* murders,* it* has* 25%* less* murder* overall.* In* turn,* Ger‐
many,*with*three*times*the*gun*ownership*rate*of*n eighboring*Aus‐
tria,* has* a* substantially* lower* murder* rate* overall* and* a* lower* gun*
murder* rate.* Likewise,* though* Greece* has* over* twice* the* per* capita*
gun*ownership* rate*of*the* Czech*Republic,*Greece*has*substantially*
less* gun* murder* and* less* than* half* as* much* murder* overall.* Al‐
though* Spain* has* over* 12* times* more* gun* ownership* than* Poland,*
the* latter* has* almost* a* third* more* gun* murder* and* more* overall*
murder* than* the* former.* Finally,* Finland* has* 14* times* more* gun*
ownership*than*neighboring*Estonia,*yet*Estonia’s* gun*murder*and*
overall*murder*rates*are*about*seven*times*higher* than*Finland’s.*
F. Geographic*Comparisons:*Gun*Ownership*and*Suicide* Rates*
The*mantra*more*guns*equal*more*death*and*fewer*gu ns*equal*
less* death* is* also* used* to* argue* that* “limiting* access* to* firearms*
could* prevent* many* suicides.”141* Once* again,* this* assertion* is* di‐
**************************************** **************************************** **********************************
comprehensive* and* are* problematic* in* various* other* respects.* Even* assuming* they*
are* clearly* superior* to* the* survey* data,* the* latter* cover* multiple* nations* that* the*
special* U.N.* report* does* not.* Given* that* neither* source* is* indubitable,* it* seems* pref‐
erable* to* have* such* information* on* those* nations* as* the* survey* data* reveal,* rather*
than*no*data*at*all.*
140.*Table* 6* covers* different* years* from* Table* 5,* its* comparative* gun* ownership*
figures* derive* from* government* records* rather* than* survey* data,* and* it* gives* rates*
for* gun* murders,* data* that* are* not* available* in* the* sources* from* which* Table* 5* is*
taken.*See*the*explanatory*note*that*precedes*Tabl e*6.*
141.*Arthur* L.* Kellermann* et* al.,* Suicide* in* the* Home* in* Relation* to* Gun* Ownership,*
327* NEW* ENG.* J.* MED.* 467,* 467,* 471–72* (1992);* see* also* Antoon* Leenaars,* et* al.,* Con‐
trolling* the* Environment* to* Prevent* Suicide:* International* Perspectives,* 45* CAN.* J.*
PSYCHIATRY*639*(2000).*
No.*2]***Would*Banning*Firearms*Reduce*Murder*and*Suicid e?* 691*
rectly* contradicted* by* the* studies* of* 36* and* 21* nations* (respec‐
tively)* which* find* no* statistical* relationship.* Overall* suicide* rates*
were*no*worse*in*nations*with*many*firearms*than*i n*those*where*
firearms*were*far*less*widespread.142**
Consider* the* data* about* European* nations* in* Tables* 5* and* 6.*
Sweden,* with* over* twice* as* much* gun* ownership* as* neighboring*
Germany*and*a*third*more*gun*suicide,*nevertheless *has*the*lower*
overall* suicide* rate.* Greece* has* nearly* three* times* more* gun* own‐
ership* than* the* Czech* Republic* and* somewhat* more* gun* suicide,*
yet* the* overall* Czech* suicide* rate* is* over* 175%* higher* than* the*
Greek* rate.* Spain* has* over* 12* times* more* gun* ownership* than* Po‐
land,* yet* the* latter’s* overall* suicide* rate* is* more* than* double* the*
former’s.* Tragically,* Finland* has* over* 14* times* more* gun* owner‐
ship* than* neighboring* Estonia,* and* a* great* deal* more* gun‐related*
suicide.* Estonia,* however,* turns* out* to* have* a* much* higher* suicide*
rate*than*Finland*overall.*
There* is* simply* no* relationship* evident* between* the* extent* of*
suicide* and* the* extent* of* gun* ownership.* People* do* not* commit*
suicide* because* they* have* guns* available.* In* the* absence* of* fire‐
arms,* people* who* are* inclined* to* commit* suicide* kill* themselves*
some* other* way.143* Two* examples* seem* as* pertinent* as* they* are*
poignant.* The* first* concerns* the* 1980s* increase* in* suicide* among*
young* American* males,* an* increase* that,* although* relatively* mod‐
est,* inspired* perfervid* denunciations* of* gun* ownership.144* What*
these*denunciations*failed*to*mention*was*that*sui cide*of*teenagers*
and* young* adults* was* increasing* throughout* the* entire* industrial‐
ized* world,* regardless* of* gun* availability,* and* often* much* more*
rapidly* than* in* the* United* States.* The* only* unusual* aspect* of* sui‐
cide*in*the*United*States*was*that*it*involved*gun s.*The*irrelevancy*
of* guns* to* the* increase* in* American* suicide* is* evident* because* sui‐
cide* among* English* youth* actually* increased* 10* times* more*
**************************************** **************************************** **********************************
142.*See*Killias*et*al.,*supra*note*42,*at*430*(st udy*of*21*nations);*see*generally*KLECK,*
supra*note*8.*
143.*See* KLECK,* supra* note* 8,* at* ch.* 8;* see* also* World* Health* Organization,* supra*
note* 43,* at* 3* (showing* that* around* the* world* “firearms* accounted* for* only* one‐fifth*
of* all* suicides,* just* ahead* of* poisoning*.*.*.*.*[s]trangulation,* i.e.* (hanging)* was* the*
most*frequently*used*method*of*suicide”).*
144.*See,*e.g.,*Jeffrey*H.*Boyd*&*Eve*K.*Moscicki, *Firearms*and*Youth*Suicide,*76*AM.*
J.* PUB.* HEALTH* 1240* (1986);* James* A.* Mercy* et* al.,* Public* Health* Policy* for* Preventing*
Violence,* 12* HEALTH* AFF.* 7* (1993);* Daniel* W.* Webster* &* Modena* E.* H.* Wilson,* Gun*
Violence* Among* Youth* and* the* Pediatricianʹs* Role* in* Primary* Prevention,* 94* PEDIATRICS*
617* (1994);* Lois* A.* Fingerhut* &* Joel* C.* Kleinman,* Firearm* Mortality* Among* Children*
and*Youth,*NAT’L*CTR*HEALTH*STAT.*ADVANCE*DATA,*No v.*3,*1989,*at*1.**
692* Harvard*Journal*of*Law*&*Public*Policy* [Vol.*30*
sharply,*with*“car*exhaust*poisoning*[being]*the*method*of*suicide*
used* most* often.”145* By* omitting* such* facts,* the* articles* blaming*
guns* for* increasing* American* suicide* evaded* the* inconvenience* of*
having*to*explain*exactly*what*social*benefit*nati ons*with*few*guns*
received*from*having*their*youth*suicides*occur*in *other*ways.*
Even* more* poignant* are* the* suicides* of* many* young* Indian*
women*born*and*raised*on*the*island*of*Fiji.*In*ge neral,*women*
are*much*less*likely*to*commit*suicide*than*are*me n.146*This*sta‐
tistic* is* true* of* Fijian* women* overall* as* well,* but* not* of* women*
in* the* large* part* of* Fiji’s* population* that* is* of* Indian* ancestry.*
As*children,*these*Indian*women*are*raised*in*more ‐or‐less*lov‐
ing* and* supportive* homes.* But* upon* marriage* they* are* dis‐
persed* across* the* island* to* remote* areas* where* they* live* with*
their* husbands’* families,* an* often* overtly* hostile* situation* the*
husbands*do*little*to*mitigate.*Indian*women*on*Fi ji*have*a*sui‐
cide* rate* nearly* as* high* as* that* of* Indian* men,* a* rate* many*
times* greater* than* that* of* non‐Indian* Fijian* women.147* It* also*
bears* emphasis* that* the* overall* Fijian* suicide* rate* far* exceeds*
that*of*the*United*States.*
The* method* of* suicide* is* particularly* significant.* Fij ian*
women* of* Indian* ancestry* commit* suicide* without* using*
guns,* perhaps* because* guns* are* unavailable.* About* three‐
quarters* of* these* women* hang* themselves, * while* virtually* all*
the* rest* die* from* consuming* the* agricultural* pesticide*
paraquat. * The* recommendation* of* the* author* whose* article*
chronicles* all* these* suicides* is* so* myopic* as* to* almost* carica‐
ture* the* more* guns* equal* more* death* mindset:* to* reduce* sui‐
cide* by* Indian* women, * she* recommends* that* the* Fijian* state*
stringently* control* paraquat. 148* Apparently* she* believes* de‐
**************************************** **************************************** **********************************
145.*Keith* Hawton,* By* Their* Own* Young* Hand,* 304* BRIT.* MED.* J.* 1000* (1992);* see*
also* Teenage* Deaths* Increasing* Across* Europe,* CRIM.* &* JUST.* INT’L,* Nov.–Dec.* 1991,*
at*4.*
146.*World* Health* Organization,* Suicide* Rates* by* Country,*
ht t p: / / www. who. i nt / ment al _heal t h/ preventi on/ sui ci de/ count ry_report s/ en/ *
index.html* (follow* hyperlinks* to* specific* countries)* (last* visited* Jan.* 18,* 2007).* For*
example,* in* the* United* States,* suicide* rates* for* males* exceed* those* for* females* by* a*
17.9‐4.2* margin* (2002* data).* In* Denmark,* the* margin* is* 19.2‐8.1* (2001* data);* in* Aus‐
tria,* the* margin* is* 27.0‐8.2* (2004* data);* and* in* Belgium,* the* margin* is* 31.2‐11.4* (1997*
data).*
147.*See* Ruth* H.* Haynes,* Suicide* in* Fiji:* A* Preliminary* Study,* 145* BRIT.* J.*
PSYCHIATRY*433*(1984).*
148.*Id.*at*437.*More*or*less*the*same*situation*s eems*to*prevail*in*the*substantially*
Indian‐populated* nation* of* Sri* Lanka* (formerly* Ceylon).* It* “has* one* of* the* highest*
suicide* rates* in* the* world*.*.*.*.*Suicides* are* especially* frequent* among* young* adults,*
*
No.*2]***Would*Banning*Firearms*Reduce*Murder*and*Suicid e?* 693*
creased* access* to* a* means* of* death* will* reconcile* these*
women* to* a* life* situation* they* regard* as* unendurable.* At* the*
risk* of* belaboring* what* should* be* all* too* obvious, * restricting*
paraquat* will* not* improve* the* lives* of* these* poor* women.* It*
will* only* reorient* them* towards* hanging,* drowning,* or* some*
other*means*of*suicide. *
Guns* are* just* one* among* numerous* available* deadly* instru‐
ments.* Thus,* banning* guns* cannot* reduce* the* amount* of* sui‐
cides.* Such* measures* only* reduce* the* number* of* suicides* by*
firearms.* Suicides* committed* in* other* ways* increase* to* make*
up* the* difference.* People* do* not* commit* suicide* because* they*
have* guns* available.* They* kill* themselves* for* reasons* they*
deem* sufficient,* and* in* the* absence* of* firearms* they* just* kill*
themselves*in*some*other*way.*
CONCLUSION*
This* Article* has* reviewed* a* significant* amount* of* evidence*
from* a* wide* variety* of* international* sources.* Each* individual*
portion* of* evidence* is* subject* to* cavil—at* the* very* least* the*
general* obj ection* that* the* persuasiveness* of* social* scientific*
evidence* cannot* remotely* approach* the* persuasiveness* of*
conclusions* in* the* physical* sciences.* Nevertheless,* the* bur‐
den* of* proof* rests* on* the* proponents* of* the* more* guns* equal*
more* death* and* fewer* guns* equal* less* death* mantra,* espe‐
cially* since* they* argue* public* policy* ought* to* be* based* on*
that* mantra.149* To* bear* that* burden* would* at* the* very* least*
require* showing* that* a* large* number* of* nations* with* more*
guns* have* more* death* and* that* nations* that* have* imposed*
stringent* gun* controls* have* achieved* substantial* reductions*
in* criminal* violence* (or* suicide).* But* those* correlations* are*
not* observed* when* a* large* number* of* nations* are* compared*
across*the* world.*
**************************************** **************************************** **********************************
both*male*and*female.*Compared*to*the*U.S.,*the*su icide*rate*for*males*ages*15*to*24*
years* in* Sri* Lanka* is* nearly* four* times* greater;* the* female* rate* nearly* 13* times*
greater.* The* most* common* mode* of* suicide* is* ingestion* of* liquid* pesticides.”* Lawrence* R.*
Berger,*Suicides* and*Pesticides* in* Sri*Lanka,*78*AM.* J.* PUB.* HEALTH*826*(1988)*(empha‐
sis*added).*
149.*(1)* Those* who* propose* to* change* the* status* quo* bear* the* burden* of* proving*
that* change* is* a* good* idea;* (2)* those* who* propose* a* new* policy* bear* the* burden* of*
proving*that*the*policy*is*a*good*idea;*and*(3)*in *a*free*society*those*who*propose*to*
abolish* a* personal* liberty* passionately* valued* by* millions* bear* the* burden* of* prov‐
ing*that*abolishment*is*a*good*idea.*
694* Harvard*Journal*of*Law*&*Public*Policy* [Vol.*30*
Over* a* decade* ago,* Professor* Brandon* Centerwall* of* the* Uni‐
versity*of*Washington*undertook*an*extensive,*stat istically*sophis‐
ticated*study*comparing*areas*in*the*United*States *and*Canada*to*
determine* whether* Canada’s* more* restrictive* policies* had* better*
contained* criminal* violence.* When*he*published*his* results* it* was*
with*the*admonition:*
If* you* are* surprised* by* [our]* finding[s],* so* [are* we].* [We]* did*
not* begin* this* research* with* any* intent* to* “exonerate”* hand‐
guns,*but*there*it*is—a*negative*finding,*to*be*su re,*but*a*nega‐
tive* finding* is* nevertheless* a* positive* contribution.* It* directs* us*
where*not*to*aim*public*health*resources.150**
**************************************** **************************************** **********************************
150.*Brandon* S.* Centerwall,* Authorʹs* Response* to* “Invited* Commentary:* Common*
Wisdom*and*Plain*Truth,”*134*AM.*J.*EPIDEMIOLOGY*1 264,*1264*(1991).*
Just click the link.
Good monkey, you can highlight and copy and paste the last two pages. I am proud of you. Again I addressed the conclusion up above.
You didn't even read your copy and paste job or you would know that. Bad monkey.
Look Fuzzy, like I said, I'm done trying to out academic article the other, there are other ways to have a more casual debate. Why don't we just ask and answer questions, man to man. Imagine you and I are sitting on a beach, sipping some cervezas. Close your eyes, smell the ocean, taste the beer.......It'd go a little something like this.....
TSA: fuzzy, now that's its just the two of us hanging out on this beautiful beach, I'd like to ask you some questions, and don't worry, you don't have to act smart in front of the forum regulars and bring up a scholarly article, I just want your thoughts, from one man to another.
Fuzzy: Sure thing TSA, what is on your mind?
TSA: first thing fuzzy, you're very outspoken about the dangers of firearms and the risks that come with them, going as far as saying all semi-autos should be banned. With these feelings about dangerous firearms why do you yourself own one?
Fuzzy: hmmm.....
TSA: take you time fuzzy, I've got just one more question. You always talk about the UK and Australia, and get giddy when talking about their strict gun control, why haven't you moved there yet? The semi-auto ban you dream of will never happen in the US, so why stay living in fear and misery here?
he's not man enough to accept the challenge.
maybe his gf is.
We're on a beach? Why do you hit on me, monkey.
Feel free to answer the questions at your leisure fuzzy, no pressure, just want your thoughts.
So why did you not do a background check when you sold your AR-15?
I see you're still a little uncomfortable giving answers that are personal in matter so I'll go ahead and answer one first to ease you up a bit. I personally can not do background checks as I am not licensed to do so, but the shop I met the guy to do the transfer at is, so they ran a background check. I live in CA, kinda how it works here, got any more stupid questions or are you ready to answer mine?
lies
You're insanely stupid. Back your claim up, and then get back to answering my questions.
I'm willing to answer everything, I've got nothing to hide, why can't you do the same?
I'm sure youre willing to answer everything about your personal life. You certainly are interested in mine. Then you talk about your fantasies of you and I being on a beach.
Are you gay?
ah here we go with the patented chumpdumper routine I see. Get your own ty shtick, at least that's his own.
You called me a liar, with no proof whatsoever. If this is your way of trolling its pretty awful, anyone can call someone a liar without backing it, what's the fun in that. Almost as bad as waiting for someone to reply and then saying haha i made you dance.
I've backed you into a corner and you got no where to go but answer two simple questions. Instead of answering a few questions of mine you deflect and throw out the are you gay line? Never thought it'd be so hard to get an opinion or answer out of someone, in fact ice never seen someone deflect as hard as you. At least the chumps, blakes, and pushers of the world aren't afraid of a little lively debate sharing their own thoughts. Enjoy being the political forum coward.
I think your questions are besides the point and I don't like people trying to delve into my personal life. What I own or don't own is irrelevant to the reality of how guns effect death rates.
At the same time every time I want to talk about empirical facts you try and bring up the anecdote of me. When you did the 'me and Fuzzy are on a beach' thing it sets off my gaydar. It's a cliche romantic setting. I would feel the same way if you said "me and fuzzy are out eating dinner" or "me and fuzzy are out on vacation."
I think it's a legitimate question: are you gay. If you are uncomfortable answering it the whatevs. The reason why I ask is if you are indeed gay I want you to stop hitting on me.
You are an anonymous poster on a message board named fuzzy inglumpkins. Who gives a about your personal life I'm not asking for pictures of your wife's s or where your children play soccer on the weekends. Stop being such a pussy. My questions are important to the discussion because I find it odd for someone to be so against guns, a gun owner. No one here but you gets all wound up like you do when asked if they own a firearm. You a convicted felon or something?
You're joking, right?Just admit you were wrong already.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel..._FAQ/index.htm
Here is all you need to know if you want to learn something. Now run along.
You expect Clamboy to admit he made a mistake?
LOL...
All this talk of guns made me decide my next gun purchase will be a Raging Bull 223, or some other that uses a 223 round or 5.56mm. Just to piss these lib s off
accept the challenge together. or admit you're too afraid to prove it.
People here in Colorado are flipping out. However Colorado springs is pretty conservative, compared to Denve
Don't be mad.
I haven't asked you if you want to commit crimes together so why would you have cause to ask me if I was a felon?
You came up with a hypothetical of you and I hanging out on a beach. That's why I asked if you were gay. I said before that if you didn't want to answer it, I wasn't going to press you on it. I just told you that I didn't want you hitting on me like your beach fantasy. I don't want to hear about it. It makes me uncomfortable.
Now you seem to be overcompensating by this angry machismo thing. I am not going to answer your questions about my personal life. Using beach fantasies certainly is not going to change that.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...-fewer-deaths/States with the most gun control laws have the fewest gun-related deaths, according to a study that suggests sheer quan y of measures might make a difference.
But the research leaves many questions unanswered and won't settle the debate over how policymakers should respond to recent high-profile acts of gun violence.
In the dozen or so states with the most gun control-related laws, far fewer people were shot to death or killed themselves with guns than in the states with the fewest laws, the study found. Overall, states with the most laws had a 42 percent lower gun death rate than states with the least number of laws.
The results are based on an analysis of 2007-2010 gun-related homicides and suicides from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The researchers also used data on gun control measures in all 50 states compiled by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a well-known gun control advocacy group. They compared states by dividing them into four equal-sized groups according to the number of gun laws.
The results were published online Wednesday in the medical journal JAMA Internal Medicine.
Chicago says hi, coward.
And you quote an article that uses data collected in a study by the CDC, the same group you said cant get accurate data because the NRA blocked them. So now that the CDC data benefits your argument you want to use it?
You're still mad. Like I said, I was not going to press you on why you pictured you and I on a beach. Let it go.
And we have already discussed how the laws of Cook county do not apply outside of Cook county.
I never said 'couldn't' I said they were limited. They didn't correlate according to ownership anyway. Critical thinking.
Although I am "pro-gun", it seems like you are losing in this...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
