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So then in a situation where God knows that someone is never going to choose salvation, they can never be saved, correct?
Him knowing what you are going to do is immaterial to your question.
If you don't choose to be saved then you won't be.
Analogy:
If I take a test to be certified for something and I'm never going to pass the test then how can I become certified? I can't be
So then in a situation where God knows that someone is never going to choose salvation, they can never be saved, correct?
God's omniscience has nothing to do with the choice therefore cannot be considered in answering the question.
It doesn't matter who knows, that will not have an impact on the choice.
What matters is what choice we choose to make.
You're ignoring the part of the question where I'm trying to make the point that God knows who is going to be saved and who isn't. Is that correct?
Same answer MIG. God is Omnisceint, we have freedom of choice, God knows what free choice we will make.
The answer is clear, you just need to look a little deeper.
It is a yes or no answer. Either God knows who is going to be saved, or he doesn't.
As if you have answers!
Don't confuse your beliefs with answers.
Where is SMEAGOL?
Are you refusing to address the last question?
dinner and guests
later
It's tough to pin them down, isn't it?
You'd think it would be different with absolute truth on their side.
Last edited by Guru of Nothing; 08-07-2005 at 07:10 PM.
You are being defensive!
I was out of pocket at a friend's house in NJ, but I'm back.
You go Rookie.You are being defensive!
Seriously, I have an inquiring mind, and thus, nothing to feel defensive about.
Fair enough, I can wait.
As I said before, jochhejaam is doing a of a job (much better than I wold ever dream of doing) explaining my beliefs.
But I will take a shot at answering your question.
God does not "give the benefit of the doubt" to child molestors, cold blooded assasins or mass murderers. He simply asks them if they truly repent of what they have done. And him being God, knows if they are truly sorry.
Do you have kids? If your kid comes to you and tells you of some bad thing he's done and asks you to forgive him, wouldn't you? (provided you belkieve the kid is truly sorry of what he has done). Obviously it would depend what your kid did. But I've heard fathers (and especially mothers) who've said they would forgive their child even if he/she has committed murder.
Why do I bring this analogy of fathers a sons/daughters? Because we are God's creation, we are his kids and he is our father. And he is prepared to forgive us, no matter what, provided we truly repent. Even child molestors.
Sounds EXACTLY like your God is giving child molesters the benefit of the doubt.
How can you dance around his question like that and not feel like a jackass? Why not just say "I don't know," because clearly you don't. If god knows what you are going to do, then how do you have freedom of choice? Are you saying the choices you make are somewhat predetermined? If so, explain rape, or murder. Also, do you think that everything happens for a reason? I hate when people say that. Noone ever says it when something ed up happens.
There is only one God. The thing is people chose to worship him in different ways.
What do you mean by "benefit of the doubt"? If you mean God will give everybody a second chance to repent all thier sins before him, then yes, he will give child molestors, and everybody for that matter, the benefit of the doubt.
The way I think it works is that the more sinful your life is, the more difficult it will be to repent. We are all sinners, and that's a fact. And we will be sinners until the day we die. The thing is how we acknowledge our sins (before God) and do we really try not to commit them anymore.
In other words, if a child molestor has been doing this for all his like (and evaded human justice), it will probably be very difficult for him to repent. It will not be a question of the child molestor, once in front of God, saying "Yeah God, I repent, now let me into Heaven. I have some unfinish business I need to take care of". Not sure that particular child molestor is very sorry and will ever enter Heaven. But I'm not the one to judge.
So, is there room in your heaven for Muslims, Hindus, Jews and anyone else who worships a god?
If only there was a handy reference manual to explain all this and set the record straight.
I have answered to the best of my ability on 4 separate occasions. That is the sum of my knowledge on the subject. There are 2 schools of thought on the subject and I am with those that believe we have a free will (which would make me anti-Calvinist regarding predestination).
Somebody once said, The difference between predestination and free will is: "Predestination is the hand you were dealt; free will is what you do with that hand."
If your interested in getting thoughts from some of the pillars of Christianity such as Martin Luther, Saint Thomas Aquinas and some deep thinkers such as Albert Einstein I will provide you with a link. (they fall on both sides of the arguement) Hopefully they can clear up for you what I was not able to.
http://homepages.ius.edu/ADRIAN/core...stination.html
Romans 8:28-30 - "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate (ordain), them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
I'm sorry, but you are doing your best to spin and avoid a question which is rather crucial to your religion. I wouldn't mind a simple I don't know, but instead you have have tried your best to avoid saying yes or no.
That is a shame because this discussion had been very civil and productive.
If this means that other religions are just as valid as yours, what makes the rules of your religion valid?
Not a god, The God.
The second of the Ten Commandments addresses this - "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
There is one God and one Heaven. Anyone who follows His plan for salvation wil partake of the Heaven that is prepared for us.
1 Tim 2:4-5 ...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Below are versus alluding to Heaven and the way to heaven.
John 14:1-6
1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
6 Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
I don't spin and if I were avoiding I wouldn't be posting.
I don't think you're going to decide for me what is and what is not crucial to my religion. Your question and its answer is in no way essential to my relationship with Christ nor does it have any bearing on where I spend eternity! I have met thousands of Christians in my lifetime and not one of them has expressed concern about freewill vs predestination. It's not an issue.
Facts that are crucial
-God is our Creator
-God loves us
-All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God
-The wages our sin is death
-Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son and he came and took the sins of the world upon himself dying for the sins that we had commited.
-By asking Him who has died on the Cross and whom God has raised from the dead into our lives we have been cleansed of our sins and are recipients of the victory that Christ has over sin.
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