spare the rod spoil the child
Um. All right? There's not much I can do to respond if you don't actually say what you disagree with or why.
I'm glad we can have a debate where we disagree this strongly while still being able to respect each other.
That said, are you really going to tell me that pain only instills fear? Are you not aware of any conditioning trials? If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?
Yeah, I'm glad you tried to score some points in your score book. But there's nothing nifty about your post. What I get is that you are trying to equate all corporal punishment to child abuse and using that strawman to try to attack the actual point. That's like saying that because kids who are locked in a room all their lives suffer negative effects, grounding them is child abuse.
Your second point is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I am saying that it's hard to truly ground kids or restrict their activities now because so much interaction is based on the Web, and kids need it to do almost anything constructive nowadays. It's practically grounding a kid to a room with his friends. That's a far cry from saying kids don't respect their elders.
pretty good read on Deadspin:
http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/why...9/+robharvilla
There's an old episode of What's Happening!! where Roger s up, and his mom decides to beat his ass (this is actually the plot of every episode of What's Happening!!). So his mom asks Rerun for his belt, only Rerun is 300-plus pounds, so when he takes out his belt, it's like eight feet long. And Roger's mom guffaws and cries out, "Oh, Rerun! I wanna whip him, not hang him!" And the whole studio audience goes crazy with laughter.
It's a weird thing, to wanna beat your kid. Kids are small and helpless, and are your own flesh and blood. You'd think the LAST person on earth to hit a child would be that child's own parent, and yet here we are. Beating kids is so common that it's practically a comedic mainstay at this point, from Eddie Murphy's mom throwing a shoe at him to Bill Cosby talking about his dad's fearsome belt. There was a recent episode of Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown set in L.A.'s Koreatown, and all these Korean chefs were laughing about how their parents used to punish them by putting them in stress positions for hours on end: standing and holding books until their arms gave out, etc. Torture, essentially. The chefs were all giggling at the memories, like veterans telling war stories. The beatings were a shared heritage among them.
There is an imaginary line between corporal punishment and abuse, and the story of Adrian Peterson beating the out of his kid with a tree branch demonstrates the insane variance in where Americans see that line. Some people applauded Peterson for this …
… while others, of course, think he belongs in a jail cell. Peterson said his dad used to beat him with an electrical cord, so he considered his own parenting methods to be HUMANE by comparison, which is insane. But that's what happens in a culture of beating. Beating is a tradition that parents hand down to children, who then hand it down (with great force) to their own children, until an entire family tree of abuse has sprung forth. Given the way abuse can spread, it's a wonder any child makes it out of childhood unscathed. And since it's so common, people will twist their minds around pretty much any excuse to justify this cycle. My parents beat me, and I turned out fine!, etc. The idea of abuse gets buried under comedic euphemisms like "whoopin'." HAHA HIS DAD GAVE HIM A WHOOPIN'. Hilarious.
Now, this is the part where I point out that study after study after study has proven that corporal punishment—even a light spanking—does not work. At all. Corporal punishment makes kids sullen, violent, and angry. I know this because I have dabbled in corporal punishment with my own children, particularly my oldest kid. (Poor first children are always the beta kids: the kids parents up with the most before applying better techniques to their younger siblings.) I have tried spanking the kid, and giving the kid a light smack on the head, and threatening the kid. My dad spanked me once or twice as a child. That's it. I don't even remember it, really. And yet I've probably tried more ways of physically correcting my child than he ever did. And the reason I tried all of these methods is because I am a failure.
That's what corporal punishment is. It's a failure. It's a complete breakdown of communication between parent and child. Children are unpredictable, reckless, and occasionally violent. They can drive otherwise rational humans into fits of rage. And I have had moments—many moments, certainly—where I have felt that rage after exhausting every last possible idea to get them to behave: bribery, timeouts, the silent treatment, walking away (they follow you!), distraction, throwing the kids outside (they end up ringing the doorbell a lot), you name it. So I have tried corporal punishment as a final resort, a desperate last stab at closure. That's an easy way for parents to justify it: You forced me to do this, child. Spanking the kid did nothing for me. It only made me realize what a ing failure I was. Oh, and the kid still kept yelling.
Spanking and beating your kid teaches your kid to talk with violence. It validates hitting as a legitimate form of communication. Everything is modeled. I have yelled at my kids, and then seen them yell. I have smacked my kid, and then watched her smack someone else. They don't learn to be good from any of it. They don't learn to sit still and practice piano sonatas. All they learn is, Hey, this works! And then they go practice what you just preached. Beating a kid creates an atmosphere of toxicity in a house that lingers forever: One beating leads to the next, and to the next, and to the next, until parents don't even know why they're beating the kid anymore. They just do. Once it is normalized, it takes root. Parents begin to like the habit. Those pictures of Peterson's kid? The violence can get worse... much worse... so much worse it's astonishing.
It takes an endless amount of patience to handle a demanding child, and lots of people don't have that patience. We also happen to live in an age of instant gratification, so the idea of spending 10 full minutes getting a child to calm down is agony. People are hurried, stressed, and selfish. If they try beating a kid and it "works," they'll go right to that well the second the kid acts up. Beating a kid is fast and easy, which is what makes it so terrifying. And no parent ever thinks of him- or herself as a child abuser, no matter how bad the abuse gets. There's also a strange political bent to all this... a "Don't tell me how to raise my kids!" at ude, where people demand the freedom to punish their kids however they like, but their kids are not allowed any freedom FROM that discipline.
You need tolerance, intelligence, and love to make it work. Sometimes, I am able to pull this off. Sometimes, I talk the kid down, and then I go to my wife and I'm like DUDE THEY CALMED DOWN AND I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO YELL GIMME A COOKIE. And sometimes, I fail miserably and start yelling like a crazy person, only to realize what a ty job I'm doing. I am getting better (I haven't tried spanking a kid in years), but I still have a lot of work to do. I cannot yell. I cannot hit. No parent ever should. No parent or child will ever get anything productive from it. You are not a hippy-dippy asshole when you avoid spanking. That's a cultural stigma that only justifies further abuse, and it's a cheap way of getting out of the legwork necessary to be a better parent: reading books, going to parenting classes, etc. People think they've tried everything when they really haven't.
If it takes sending Adrian Peterson to jail to explain "don't hit your kids" concept to all the junior Bob Knights out there, so be it. Go ahead and look and those pictures again and tell me what good will come from it. Because I don't see it. I don't see how 10 lashings do the trick instead of just one. I don't see how that lesson won't be taught to that child again and again and again, until it isn't a lesson at all. And I don't see how Peterson's grandkids avoid a similar fate.
If you never use the stove again, that's a definite possibility.
Or if it burns you again and again when you touch it. But if you ever learn to cook even the simplest things, then you'll learn when it's okay to touch it and when it's not.
If a parent only hits their kid without balancing that out with affection, then the kid would indeed start to form a strong negative association with the parent. But that's true for any type of discipline.
Good read
Is this anecdote or fact?
what balance are you referring to? Does that mean if you spank for an hour that you need to shower them with affection for an hour?
If you accidentally go too far and cut a scrotum, does that mean a few extra hugs balances it out? Maybe a new PS4 game?
I'm glad tooI'm glad we can have a debate where we disagree this strongly while still being able to respect each other.
That said, are you really going to tell me that pain only instills fear? Are you not aware of any conditioning trials? If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?
Pain is a defensive mechanism indeed. When you put your hand on a hot stove your boddy is telling you is not good for him, that's one thing we can agree on.
Saying that, conditioning works obviously better with reward than punishment. You train a dog with positive reinforcement not by beating him down. Again, I'm not offended by people using reasonable force with their child, I just believe (like most pedatritians, psy...) this is not the best way to teach a kid. Besides, even though there are people with a brain that can do it without ing it up, I also think there are a bunch of other people who are uncapable to use "just" moderate force and will cross the line. Therefore I prefer reading opinions saying you don't use force on a child ever than it's ok to use a freaking belt moderatly and I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Well, I certainly don't mean the shower part. I'm also on record here as saying that what Peterson did was abusive, mainly due to the degree to which he hit is kid but also due to the way he seemed to enjoy it.
There are things that we can all agree that a good parent should do for their kids, like playing with them, helping them with their homework, teaching them how to ride a bicycle, etc. Those are things that build positive associations. Discipline creates negative associations, but if the overall is positive enough, then the parent should still have a good reputation with the kid. There are plenty of studies and experiments on conditioning and reputation, but the only ones I'm familiar with involve animals, since that's what I studied in school. So I'd say it's closer to fact than speculation, but there's obviously a ton of variance.
SpursTalk: Parenting 101
Well, I don't think we disagree much on these points. I do think there are way too many parents who hit their kids while they are not in the proper mindset to do so. Peterson certainly doesn't seem to have been. So it's possible that we have to phase out corporal punishment to limit child abuse. But I think is a sticky issue, like reinstating prohibition to cut down on DWIs.
I do have a slight disagreement on the dog point, though. Positive reinforcement is a great way to get a dog to learn to do things (like tricks), but it's not really a good way to prevent a dog from doing things (like peeing on the carpet). Most people agree that you have to punish the dog in some way (even by firmly saying "No.").
They say it takes a village to raise a child.
Idk, this place can be one dark village.
So you'd give AP some emoticons? You just lost your girl, and there was nothing you could do about it.got jimbo looking for black male pics on the internet to make a point
The way I see it is that you're closer to the 4 year old in terms of physical strength than Peterson is to you. If he beat you up would that be cowardice too?
It takes true manliness to stand up in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a .
Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?
It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.
We agree dogs need boundaries so you have to say NO firmly on stuff he is doing, best way to reinforce a good behavior is to reward the dog when he actually obeys. Dog trainers don't don't punish a dog using force.
I'm just really leery of giving the state a lot of leeway to intervene in family affairs, especially given the shifting definition of "child abuse." I mean, 30 years ago what AP did probably wouldn't have been considered abusive. But 30 years from now the state might be indicting parents for yelling at their kids in public.
Dog trainers usually don't own the dogs they train, so it's probably not a good idea for them to hit the dogs anyway. That's a big reason why schools in the US aren't really allowed to hit their students anymore. There are still plenty of training devices that do instill pain, like dog whistles and invisible fences.
As a 9th grader ('68) I received 29 swats over the course of the school year. These were hard hits from a wooden paddle. The teacher would just simply take you out of class, bring another teacher to bear witness, bend you over and apply twixt 2 & 4 hits per occasion. My ass wasn't black & blue afterward, just black. Had no affect on Cubby. I still grew up to be a pain in the ass.
tee, hee.
So maybe Peterson shouldn't practice on a 4 year old.
Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?
It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.
Again, there is a difference between being "okay" with what AP did and wanting him arrested and possibly jailed for it. Look, I have a kid, and AP's way of discipline sure as isn't my way. But that doesn't mean I want the state stepping in every time a parent deals with his kids in a way that I don't necessarily approve of.
So you'd give AP some emoticons? You just lost your girl, and there was nothing you could do about it.
The way I see it is that you're closer to the 4 year old in terms of physical strength than Peterson is to you. If he beat you up would that be cowardice too?
It takes true manliness to stand up in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a .
Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?
It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.
it must take a lot of courage to stand up against in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a .really dude ?
you did not find another pic of a naked black to scare the out of me tbh ?
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