It really is notorious, this is a very arrogant board overall.
You would think the Spurs had Atlanta or post-MJ-Chicago's trajectory the way people here talk about the team and FO. Yet the Spurs are like the third most winning franchise in NBA history, to this day. Funny how that works.
Yeah, third most winning franchise because they had arguably the greatest leader and teammate in the history of the game.
Times change, the game changes, there are plenty of instances where amazing front offices and coaches up and end their reign on a sour note.
Look at the Warriors. They wanted to emulate what the Spurs did, wanted the two timelines rebuild and after wasting all those assets now they're ed.
They either have Steph treadmill his way into the retirement or trade away all their assets for a couple more first round exits.
Which good, big moves have the Spurs made since Duncan retired in 2016?
Nephew ed them over, they refused better offers and decided not to tank.
Demar and LMA thing was obviously first round exit, best case scenario, they still stuck with them.
LMA got old and lost his value, we still kept treadmilling even after trading DDR away for peanuts.
Everyone reasonable was on board with tanking after 2018. It was a case of needing to pull the plug from a dying roster.
Then after four years in the lottery we get the potential GOAT, he's already ridiculous, we have a ton of assets and can't get top5 record anymore...but now PATFO wants to tank?
Where's the logic in that?
The only truth and fact is that even after 5 years of lottery Spurs would be a top3 worst team in the league if we didn't get extremely luck with 14% chance and got the potential GOAT.
If we had anyone else from 2023 draft, we'd be looking at two more years of tanking, minimum.
That's some Hornets and Pistons , ffs.
You just wait - this #8 pick we just drafted might be the rookie of the year!
Oh ...wait!
He’s not a top three player.
He’s top one.
If you don't understand or appreciate the work it took from the Spurs to retain that GOAT level player through his entire career here, and be able to elevate him by consistently surrounding him with top-tier talent, then we simply won't agree. I will not hand-waive and dismiss close to two decades of excellent team-building, asset management, and the fielding of continuously champion-level rosters, as something "typical" or "expected" or "natural".
The Spurs FO overall was as GOAT-contentious in its own field, as Tim Duncan was on the court, is my point. I challenge you to find better success and management over time in other teams, , in other sports even -- the Spurs are remarkable worldwide on this. , the Bulls had an even greater prospect than TD, and how's their winning % looking like nowadays? It's not only about the player, or close to that.
I don't disagree that time changes, but I do disagree that they've changed to such an extent - or that the Spurs have not adapted, besides the public "old school" persona front they put out as branding - that all of their experience, know-how is now worthless. Again, agree to disagree, but the stats and team success, even post-TD, remain.
Yeah, terrible asset management from them, they're no Spurs tbh. I also don't think they really emulated the Spurs in the period you're critiquing - they built their core and team much like the Spurs, but the past few years haven't managed them like the Spurs would've. They got really desperate, which was surprising IMO.
Broke this into 2 posts for easier replying.
I personally liked their pivot into the post-Kawhi era. The Spurs weren't willing to tank, which is as much a team as it is a business decision, and on that paradigm made the best of a terrible, terrible situation. I didn't like the Ingram package which was the only real offer besides DDR, which lands us here, really. And to your tanking point - the Spurs actively delayed the tank while waiting for Wemby to be eligible (there's a Timvp article on the Spurs' preparation for this if you haven't read it), and got the GOAT candidate. Again, something I think they should get credit for, rather than bashed, considering that having followed your "tank in 2018" idea (not yours only ofc, most of ST was on it), they wouldn't have Wemby today. They waited for it.
I haven't seen any mentions of wanting to tank from PATFO this season, so do loop me on that if I've missed it. From the looks of it, they want to field a compe ive team while retaining flexibility, which is a path I like, though I wouldn't mind Markkannen for the right price.
That's neither truth nor a fact, it's a supposition lmao. And it's not even a right one because different events necessitate different choices - had the Spurs not gotten Wemby and instead Amen Thompson or w/e, they would not have made the moves they have, and might've pushed harder for a trade or bigger shakeup. You can't just assume it all plays out the same.
And in any case, as teams like the Hornets and Pistons you mention show, it's not about how bad you are but how good you're building yourself up to be. Otherwise, being bad has no end. And on this point, I didn't see the Spurs being rudderless at any point post-Nephew - just going in directions that I might disagree with. But clueless? Only once, when the Primo stuff blew up in their faces, tbh.
I think the Spurs are going to have to try pretty hard to be bottom-10 this year. Too many teams that want to lose and a lot more talent this you're suggesting. The only thing that would've sunk them (besides injury) was if Pop started Castle at PG and he had a Sochan-like effect. But once they signed Paul, that risk went away. People seem to not be taking into account how Jeremy being able to grow as a PF playing off an elite play-maker could help is game. But that's neither here nor there. I don't think it's productive to get into another debate over the relative talents of the players. That'll sort itself out. I'm in favor of a pretty big move. I'm not particularly in favor of the types of trade people are talking about right now, though.
The Spurs shouldn't have to trade five unprotected picks to have a realistic chance of making the playoffs. That's just silly and would be a sign their roster isn't at the point where such an acceleration would have the long-term effects they're hoping for. If they can't improve to 35-44 wins with solid vets and growth, then they need to go back to the draft. But I think they can, so it's fine.
This, so much. People understandably want big moves right now, but another season of growth is best course. Wemby isn't going anywhere and the only thing "wasted" would be the Spurs' assets on the wrong trade, which Dallas saw firsthand and is still paying the costs of with their Porzingis trade.
Actually, that Porzingis trade sounds eerily similar to the Markkannen trade people are proposing. I don't recall the assets dealt, but it seemed like a "jump the gun" move the moment it happened.
Discourse doesn’t bother me. It’s the internet. I’m simply offering a different point of view by pointing out the irony of some of the people being critical of the organization at this very moment when we don’t have all the facts. We don’t know the FO plans are yet. All I’m suggesting is that it’s better to wait until we have more information before making assumptions that the organization is dropping the ball after Wemby’s rookie season.
I’ve seen what Wright does with picks in the 8-12 range (where we should end up next season) and he’s not going to pick the magical second star like everyone around here says he is going to. I don’t see where fans get the faith that he will.
Also fans having the gall to have an opinion on a spurs message board. How dare fans think they know more than paid professionals. Especially on a Spurs message board. We should just remain happy that we haven’t made the playoffs in 6 seasons bc PATFO know more about basketball than us. Well they need to start acting like it.
Pop was way too egotistical last year. He thought he could teach Sochan how to play PG. That thought crossed his mind and his ego told him that he could. All by himself. And he was wrong. He also by his own admission didn’t run plays for Wemby or come up with plays for Wemby. Let’s compare that to Andy Reid who as soon as he gets a player he draws up plays for them and goes into the lab to tinker out stuff. But Pop just said eh I will figure it out at some point. Yeah half a season down the drain before Pop gets this magical idea that maybe he should pair Wemby with a point guard…
And he didn’t treat Wemby like the franchise player to start the year. This gets the whole season off on the wrong foot. There needs to be a hierarchy on your team. And Wemby should’ve been on top of it to start the season. These are all obvious things that Pop didn’t care about. Every great coach hits a wall where they can’t coach anymore. Pop hit that wall. It’s ok. But to be like well Pop knows more about basketball so he should coach forever. That’s just stupid.
In the 1970s the Reds were the best team in baseball. They had a huge run of success and nobody thought it would end. Until it did. Your sports franchise isn’t infallible to becoming bad just bc they were once good. Taking/making the least amount of 3s in today’s nba is stupid. Idc if Pop knows more about basketball than me. The Spurs need more shooting. The only way to win in today’s league is to have a buncha shooters on your team that can hit 3s.
Final part to my long rant. People keep saying how young we are and our youth haven’t hit their stride yet. Ok. If you truly believe in the youth Sugus. Like 100% believe in Sochan and Vassell and Castle and Branham and Wesley (Mr. Body) then why don’t we trade our picks for a 27 year old all star player who fits seamlessly with the team. We have our core youth players. They are only going to get better. Lauri is in his prime and will still be a good player 4 years from now. If you really believe in our players then trading for Lauri just for draft picks alone should be the opportunity you want. Instead you don’t believe in them. You think they aren’t that good. They aren’t championship level. That Brian Wright didn’t draft very well. And so really you just agree with us
The Fo worked so hard tanking to get yound talent through the draft just to trade away their 8th for nothing anytime soon.
What are they even doing?
Maybe so, but that's typical message board fodder for you. In this case, it's not unfounded either because we've seen their overly conservative/rigid act for decades.
A lot of what makes the FO discourse/criticism so asinine to me is just how much of it is built off narratives and entirely unproven prerrogatives that establish the "worldview" that the critics attack. An example from your own post: how the do you know that it was a Pop alone, Pop's ego decision, to give Sochan run at PG, and not a decision discussed with the coaching staff beforehand? That maybe an assistant coach saw value in Sochan's handling and Pop valued that and green-lit the experiment? You simply do not know, tbh, but one narrative gives you a clear enemy, and the other doesn't.
Anyway, on to your question: while yes, I "believe" (lol?) in the Spurs' youth, I'm not so interested in Lauri because 1) I don't think the Spurs have a roster that is one trade away from true contention, instead having numerous holes to fill first, and 2) given point 1, I don't believe the Spurs can maximize Lauri's talents to match the very high price that getting him would take. Then you have to re-sign him to a near-max or max deal at the end of next season, and the problems begin. I've been drumming the Porzingis to Dallas trade as a parallel and an example of why I dislike this move, this early, consistently.
But I'm not "hard passing" on Lauri. If he can be had for just Keldon and a pick? it, of course. I just don't think that'll be the case. I'm only engaging in this trade if I'm winning it because I don't see the Spurs being rushed to push for this specific "star" at all, when again, more are sure to become available in the near future, just like Kawhi once became.
Pop is head coach. The head coach gets the blame. It comes with the job. The assistant coaches don’t have a win loss record and they aren’t making 16 million a year. I don’t care if an intern came up with the idea, it was Pop who implemented it and therefore he gets the blame for not being able to do it.
What about KJ and 4 picks? 3 our own and the CHI pick. We keep all our youth. Lauri will still be in his prime as the youth gets to learn how to play. So you either have faith that they can become championship pieces or you don’t. If you do have faith then we don’t need major pieces for when we are le contenders. Just small trades and the right vet signings. And yeah the Spurs have a great history of signing star players who want out. We’ve done it once in our entire history
My guess is that PATFO is looking at a team like the wolves and the nuggets and realize that as a small market team, you are unlikely to ever have a dynastic run in today’s cap structure. Ultimately the second apron will severely limit building dynasties (look at Celtics cap) and the best way to prolong the wemby timeline is basically to continuously rebuild the team while he is in his prime with a core of mid level role players and a young hired gun as support. At this point that core isn’t developed yet and there are no ideal guys to trade for, having players like Tre young and Lauri will just hamper cap room and make the spurs a pretender like the Knicks or at best the Mavs.
Then Wembys rookie deal is up and he would want out while the roster around him craters. PATFO would want to time the deals and development such that it is ascending rather descending during Wembys negotiations. They probably learned that from duncan when they almost lost him to the magic.
Isn't Pop also still the president of basketball ops? Seems like blame has his address listed on its contact page.
I’m not a cap guy, but even big market teams are going to have to rethink how they hold and bring in talent. Dynasties are going to be fewer and far between. Those wanting to blowntheir load will have us looking like Cleveland in no time.
i will say though, anything less than multiple championships is a failure when all things said and done.
The way the cap is setup I feel the NBA is going to become like the NFL where most of time you will see a new champion every year and back-to-back les will be very rare. You won't even see a run like what the Spurs did from the '99-'07 due to the way the cap is currently set up. If this current CAP set up existed back during the big 3 era there is a high chance the Spurs would not have been able to keep high quality role players like Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Horry, Michael Finley, etc which would have impacted their le runs. Also, there is a chance they wouldn't have been able to keep the big 3 together.
so the Spurs made a move to get the team more more compe ive next year and SFs are still ing
They traded away one of the highest lottery picks in team history and signed the corpse of a great point guard with a handshake deal to let him go ring chasing at the trade deadline.so the Spurs made a move to get the team more more compe ive next year and SFs are still ing
More compe ive than 20 wins is...what?
What I'm saying is, the Spurs need to just accept that they aren't going to be relying on their own first round picks anymore. They're going to be in the late 20s, hopefully for a long long time. Accepting that, you can spend what assets you have to build the team now. Anything you need to find out about the young players you can find out whether the Spurs win 20 games or 50.
Jordan didn't do in the playoffs until he got other good players and a good coach. It took the Bulls too long to figure that out. The 2024 Spurs don't have Bird, Barkley and Isiah blocking their path. The timeline is shorter.
To the people talking up Pop and the FO for being so smart, are you hoping to luck into Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili a second time? That would be an amazing strategy.
That kid is so ing special. I hope he stays healthy for 20 years.
Denver and Milwaukee each have a championship le to their names, which is the ultimate prize, so they didn't completely fail like the 2010s OKC Thunder did
I've always advocated for an NFL-style hard cap and no max contracts.
Also, in the load management era, instead of raising individual's salaries so much, why not expand roster size to 18 (and you can select 15 for the active roster every game)? That way you'll have more players overall in the NBA and they can play more minutes because of all the softie stars that don't feel like playing 82 games anymore like the stars of yesteryear.
I didn't know if there was a "win now" pick in this last draft, and I hoped for a "star upside" pick. Even though the Spurs pissed away one of their lottery picks, it looks like they got both in Castle.
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