deja vu?
his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!".
you don't think his pf may be affecting his footwork and rotations, especially in the second night of b2b's? come on
I'd say let's start the starting 5 of
Tony Finley Bruce Rasho Nazr
Ginobili and Oberto first subs
Marks, NVE, Udrih, Barry 2nd unit
...and let TD get a proper treatment....
I'd say we can win a championship against Mavs and Nets even with such a lineup. Are u with me?
BELIEVE!
"Tony Finley Bruce Rasho Nazr"
That just doesn't seem like a very good idea, sorry ...
Believe... All I ask is a little faith...
it can affect his footwork but he still has no outside shot/bank shot
like i said, a championship for us is VERY unlikely this year. Detroit simply wants it too much
I'll give you RC as the best drafting GM. Tony and Manu were great picks. But don't bring up guys who haven't stepped foot in the NBA. As we've seen in the past, those guys don't always translate to the NBA. Over the summer I heard all about how Oberto was going to be this big factor. What happend? He is essentially the Spurs version of Darko, without the upside. A garbage time guy. Also consider that even though RC has hit the jackpot twice late in the draft with Tony/Manu, Dumars has had his fair share of success late in the draft. Tayshaun was a 23rd pick, and Memo Okur was a 38th pick of his. Time will tell with his current crop of prospects (Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir, Acker).
But Free Agency and Trades is where Dumars sets himself apart. Look at their Free agent/trading histories (I'm taking out the scrub deals):
RC Buford
2005-2006:
-Signed Michael Finley (has underachieved big time)
-Signed Nick Van Exel (another underachiever)
-Signed Oberto (thought of as a big deal, hasn't materialized)
2004-2005:
-Signed Glen Robinson
-Traded Malik and a 1st for Nazr
-Signed Brent Barry (You tell me)
2003-2004:
-Signed Rasho Nesterovic (ugly contract)
-Traded Ferry for Mercer and Hedo
2002-2003:
-Not much here.
Joe Dumars
2005-2006:
-Signed Mo Evans
-Signed Dale Davis
-Hired Flip Saunders
2004-2005:
-Signed Antonio McDyess
2003-2004:
-Traded Atkins, Rebraca, and Sura for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James ()
-Hired Larry Brown
2002-2003:
-Traded Stackhouse and Cardinal for Rip Hamilton and Bobby Simmons
-Signed Chauncey Billups to 5 year, MLE deal.
2001-2002:
-Hired Rick Carlisle
2000-2001:
-Traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins (
It speaks for itself. Dumars has completely transformed this team. RC has put nice complimentary pieces around an already solid foundation (Duncan). And Dumars has consistantly made the perfect moves when the team needs it. Particulary when it comes to coaches.
Last edited by FreshPrince22; 02-04-2006 at 07:33 PM.
You got that one pretty wrong. The Spurs traded Danny Ferry and got Hedo and Mercer back. And that was the summer of 2003.-Traded Hedo and Ferry for Mercer and Horry
Sorry, misread it. Everything should be correct, now.
i just don't see how you dismiss his pf as a factor on his shot. last time i checked, you have to use your feet to shoot too. he shoots well when rested, and poor when he is not.
The Pistons unquestioned leader is Joe Dumars, not Flip Saunders. Saunders was brought in here to end the scoring droughts, not turn the Pistons iden y into the Phoenix Suns'. And if Flip goes too far in the other direction, guess who's starting a new search for a coach? Joe Dumars.
Defense not only wins in this town, it sells tickets. It's why Ben Wallace's name is up there with Gordy Howe, Steve Yzerman, Kirk Gibson, Barry Sanders, Isiah Thomas, Dave Bing, and Joe Dumars in terms of sports heroes of Detroit. It's why Ben Wallace has joined that eminent list of sports figures and Grant Hill never did. It's why the 1990s Pistons never connected with this community. It's why we shout "Deeeetriot Basketbaaaalll" after a change of possession. It's not a turnover; it's an affirmation of what we want to see.
The early 1980s was a score-fest in Detroit. The four-headed monster of Isiah Thomas, Kelly Tripuka, John Long, and Vinnie Johnson wowed the crowds, scoring 115.7 ppg from 1984-1986. This included the highest scoring game in NBA history, 186-184 3OT comeback victory over Denver in December of 1983. Thomas (47), Long (41), and Tripuka (35) led the Pistons that night.
However, after making their first playoff appearance since 1977 when they played the Knicks in the 1984 playoffs, and going to six games in the semifinals against Boston in 1985, the Pistons faced the Atlanta Hawks and Dominique Wilkens in the opening round of the 1986 playoffs. The Hawks put up 122.0 points (140 and 137 in games one and two) on the Pistons in 3-1 spanking by the Hawks. Worse yet, they let Dominique go for 34.2 ppg highlighted by 50 points on 28 shots in game two.
Suddenly, John Long, Kelly Tripuka, and Kent Benson are replaced by Joe Dumars, Adrian Dantley, and Rick Mahorn. The Pistons, looking for a way to guard the Celtics frontline, draft John Salley and Dennis Rodman in the 1986 draft.
The next five seasons, the Pistons make five appearances in the Conference Finals, Three Appearances in the NBA Finals, and win back-to-back Championships. The Pistons had three winning seasons from 1957-1983; they were the Clippers. We wasted talents like Dave Bing and Bob Lanier, Dave DeBusschere, and Bob McAdoo.
My point to all this history? To Pistons fans without defense, we can't win les, and we want les more than anything. Joe Dumars and Bill Davidson understand that. Flip Saunders isn't going to change that.
pisstons just lost to feces
And this has to do with this topic how?
In 2001 - 2002 you missed Stephen Jackson. In 2002 - 2003 you only missed the signing of Manu. In 2003 - 2004 you missed the signing of Devin Brown, who was the Spurs sixth man before a back injury took him out of last years playoffs.I'll give you RC as the best drafting GM. Tony and Manu were great picks. But don't bring up guys who haven't stepped foot in the NBA. As we've seen in the past, those guys don't always translate to the NBA. Over the summer I heard all about how Oberto was going to be this big factor. What happend? He is essentially the Spurs version of Darko, without the upside. A garbage time guy. Also consider that even though RC has hit the jackpot twice late in the draft with Tony/Manu, Dumars has had his fair share of success late in the draft. Tayshaun was a 23rd pick, and Memo Okur was a 38th pick of his. Time will tell with his current crop of prospects (Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir, Acker).
But Free Agency and Trades is where Dumars sets himself apart. Look at their Free agent/trading histories (I'm taking out the scrub deals):
RC Buford
2005-2006:
-Signed Michael Finley (has underachieved big time)
-Signed Nick Van Exel (another underachiever)
-Signed Oberto (thought of as a big deal, hasn't materialized)
2004-2005:
-Signed Glen Robinson
-Traded Malik and a 1st for Nazr
-Signed Brent Barry (You tell me)
2003-2004:
-Signed Rasho Nesterovic (ugly contract)
-Traded Ferry for Mercer and Hedo
2002-2003:
-Not much here.
Joe Dumars
2005-2006:
-Signed Mo Evans
-Signed Dale Davis
-Hired Flip Saunders
2004-2005:
-Signed Antonio McDyess
2003-2004:
-Traded Atkins, Rebraca, and Sura for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James (
-Hired Larry Brown
2002-2003:
-Traded Stackhouse and Cardinal for Rip Hamilton and Bobby Simmons
-Signed Chauncey Billups to 5 year, MLE deal.
2001-2002:
-Hired Rick Carlisle
2000-2001:
-Traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins (
It speaks for itself. Dumars has completely transformed this team. RC has put nice complimentary pieces around an already solid foundation (Duncan). And Dumars has consistantly made the perfect moves when the team needs it. Particulary when it comes to coaches.
As for the Spurs new players being underachievers, you must be kidding. While none have set the World on fire, none were brougnt in to be more than be solid role players. While Finley has struggled with not being a volumn shooter, he has still managed to win a few games with his stroke from the field and/or the line. I expect him to deliver more as the season and especially the playoffs move on.
Yeah, I hear your points, and I haven't read all the epic responses yet, but the proof really is in the pudding. Manu was the second to last pick of the 99 draft. Tony was the last pick of the first round of the '01 draft. Both turned out to be All-Stars. Dumars on the other hand made what could have been the second worst number 2 pick in NBA history (Sam Bowie being the clear winner in that category). Buford was the one who made those picks happen more than anyone else in the Spurs organization. During his tenure, he's won two les, been to the WCF three times, and dethroned the 3-peat Lakers dynasty. He assembled that giant killer team out of spare parts, cast-offs that couldn't/didn't excel in any other system (Bowen, SJax, Speedy, etc.). His talent evaluating is better than Dumars', but granted, not by a lot.
And as for the Duncan/Manu/Game 7 debate, I'm gonna have to get back to you on that one after the Super Bowl. Duncan missed many shots and free throws in the fourth, while Manu made play after play after play on both offense and defense. He was stone cold. But again, I'll pay attention to the times you pointed out and get around to writing a worthy response, hopefully sooner rather than later.
I'll just pull out two facts here:
38th Overall pick in 2001: Memhmet Okur (17.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 2.6 apg, .98 bpg).
23rd Overall pick in 2002: Tayshaun Prince (14.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.3 apg, .62 spg).
Both won a Championship with the Pistons, neither of them were lottery picks, one was a starter for all 82 games, the other was moved to the bench by Rasheed Wallace.
Those players are much more comparable to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili than Darko Milicic. The Pistons have been in the Conference Finals just as many times, and beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals, the first team to ever beat a Phil Jackson team that late in the game.
At what point before this year was Chauncey Billups a "passing PG"?? The guy has been a "gunner" untill this year.
A team can't be fun to watch and play defense? That's news to me. They're just a defensive team that can score now. They're giving up a whopping 0.5 more points per game. And even that number is off because the Pistons are involved in so much garbage time where D gets soft.
You clearly don't know this team. Their entire focus of the regular season is to get HCA, because that's what cost them back-to-back rings last year.
Rasheed shot about 250 threes each of the last 2 years under Larry Brown. How come it's fine under him, but not under Flip? Because LB's some sort of genius, right?
The Pistons also have the best strength and conditioning coaches in the league (Arnie Kander, Mike Abdenour). Ask around, players will pretty consistantly say those are the best guys in the league. Arnie Kander in particular. Injuries happen. If they happen to this team, it won't be because of the "new offense". If anything, our chances of injury are down with this offense because they aren't breaking off plays anymore. They're executing much better. And you can call Ben and Sheed "old" all you want, but you should look at the minutes. Neither of them have played even close to the career minutes of KG. It's a lot more about the miles on the body than the age. Not only is Big Ben in the best shape in the league, he also has fairly light miles on his body due to not playing starter minutes untill he became a Piston.
uh.... ok?
Similies, metaphors and comparisons never worked at all for you in school did they? Only a moron would take that out of context (or someone who was at a loss for words) and try to play the " but billups is a gunner, and popovich never traded for Troy Hudson" bull .
I say there turning into a fun teach to watch because guess what? I KNOW FLIP SAUNDERS TRACK RECORD!!! Very entertaining teams to watch. They get you hyped up for the postseason. Then you realize the regular season in the NBA is like the preseason games in the NFL and your Brady's, LT's, and Demarcus Ware's have suddenly turned into Rattay, Sugg's, and Ralph Brown. (But those guys aren't NBA players, what the are you talking about?
Funny you bring up KG's minutes. I've been ing about Flips use of him for years. But his minutes were actually more warranted with his teams then your frontcourt. Funny how KG has been much less durable and maybe to te point of breaking down in his career now.
When did i say it was fine for a PF to shoot threes? You obviously must not peruse non piston related threads or you would have seen preseason how I ripped Ferry for not addressing a shooting need with all that cap space until they got Damon jones. Kori mentioned Marshall and i said your in big trouble if you depend on your PF let alone a backup 4 to shoot your threes. Since the pistons depend more on the three then in the past, theres a problem there.
Age is more important than a better s&c coach. At that level there all pretty damn good. Injuries down bc there not breaking off plays? thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Let me know how well ankles' hold up because Rip landed on someone's foot after what was a wide open three. Do you have any numbers coorelating the injuries over the years to teams with less effective offenses? Damn, get Pop on the phone right now and tell him that duncan's foot problems will go away if the can swing a deal for Bobby Sura. Maybe Something with Brent Barry involved will make T-macs Chronic back problems dissapear for him. Grant Hill's better than ever now that Dwight howard and Jameer nelson have really emerged.
I'm sorry. But the Darko one is just tooo much for me. I've heard all about "but we didn't need carmelo, we had prince" bs too much.
So what if you didn't want Carmelo, you don't think you could have traded for a peja/artest type talent for that? Draft Wade? How rediculous would it be to have a Dwayne wade, Bosh, Hinrich, coming off the bench? 4-peat? Probably
And how come Buss was a great gm for Payton and malone signgings for their price but NVE and finlye are crap?
Its like whining over who's better, Wade or James. One of which was there for the taking........
I mean, we can obviously never know for sure, and hindsight really is 20-20, but I'm willing to bet that Buford would not have wasted the second pick of one of the deepest drafts in NBA history on a 18 year old unproven 7-footer from Novi Sad. Forget about what you need or what part seems like it would be the best fit; the point remains that in that draft, the value of the second pick was astronomical, and could have been dealt for a near All-Star calibre player. It just makes more sense to trade that pick and get a player that is exactly what you need instead of drafting what at best was a work-in-progress with a decidedly uncertain potential. In my defense, I felt this way on draft day in '03 too. But there were lots of people at that time who thought it was a good idea, so maybe it's unfair to fault Dumars too much for it. But even still, I think Buford would not have failed that badly. Among Buford's failures, the only glaring ones that come to mind are Derek Anderson and Rasho and the Giricek thing. Even those three added together don't equal the tragedy that is Darko Milicic ahead of Melo, Wade, Bosh, Hinrich, Ford, Ridnour, Diaw, even Sweetney, Kaman, and Korver. I mean, that draft pick hasn't just turned out to be bad...it's turned out to be almost surreally awful.
Another good point that I've read from some people is the free-agent signings and trades. Bowen, SJax, Speedy, Horry, even Barry and Nazr have all been HUGE in the playoffs and paid big dividends. I laud Dumars for assembling a championship starting lineup from stratch with savvy trades, free agents signings, and a good draft pick. And I understand that he didn't have a once-in-a-lifetime superstar to build around. But he also had a bigger market city with a pre-established winning tradition and substantially more "street cred" than Buford did. Perhaps, Buford didn't do more with less, but he definitely has done more.
Plus, Okur and Prince are not All-Stars. They're good players, that's for sure. Maybe even comparable to Tony and Manu. But still not as good. Plus, I think it means something that Dumars couldn't hold on to one of them, while Buford secured both of his diamonds-in-the-rough with long term deals. And finally, neither of those players could EVER give the greatest power forward of all time a run for his money for Finals MVP.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dumars. He's definitely my number 2. But his successes haven't been as great as Buford's, and his failures have been much worse. And that reality has to carry the day.
And as a parting shot, one of the biggest reasons that the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals was that the Lakers had to run the Western Conference gauntlet and were dealt a crippling injury in the championship series. Who knows, maybe Dumars was .4 seconds away from relative obscurity....
Ahhh, this is exactly what I've been looking for.
Yes, motivation is obviously important. Say what you will about talent and opportunity, those things probably cancel each other out in a seven game series between these two teams. And I agree that Detroit looks like a team on a mission, while the Spurs (Tony excepted) look like a team complacent. And I agree with everything you said, but I'm going to say something that will draw a lot of fire out of the Pistons fans on this board, and I know it's probably the worst thing to say, but I just can't help it: I think the Pistons have the heart to beat the Spurs, but don't have the ability to exert their will when it matters most.
I know the Game 7 loss last year affected the Pistons very deeply. That is obvious from their play this year. And maybe it changed who they fundamentally are. But that fourth quarter of Game 7 is very telling of the character of that team. I think it demonstrates what the Pistons don't have, and can't have. Tie game, 12 minutes to decide a champion, and the defensive focus melts away. The Pistons let Manu Ginobili exert his will and take over the game. They let the Spurs make all the amazing plays, while making none of their own. Desire and determination can only take you so far; something else has to be there to beat another elite team.
Now I know all the Pistons fans in the world blame Larry for that loss (or the refs, but those Pistons fans don't count because they're morons). And I can understand why he's become the fall guy. But all of you need to ask yourselves, being in that situation without the benefit of hindsight, would you have done it differently? Would you have played Duncan straight up and doubled Manu? Would you have forced Chauncey to take every shot? What would you have done that could have made a difference?
No matter how determined and focused the Pistons are, they have shown me that when they are 12 minutes away from getting the rings and securing their place in history, they fold. It sounds weird to say that about a team that performs so well under pressure, but that seemed to be just too much pressure for them. They couldn't handle being in that situation, and none of them, not even the amazingly clutch Chanucey Billups, could match Manu. None of them could pull out a crucial defensive stop like Bowen did. You didn't see Ben or Sheed or Prince block a shot that would have shifted all the momentum and given them the impetus to win the game. You watch the last half of that quarter, and the Pistons (with maybe Chauncey excepted) look scared. The Spurs on the other hand are the ones that look determined and focused. Is that because they were in a friendly environment? Maybe. Was it because they had something to prove? Who knows. But the fact remains; when it mattered most, when the trophy was right there in front of them and they had to reach out and snatch it away from the other team, they did. They showed their true character, something that we saw glimpses of in Game 6 in 2003. And while Detroit has the motivation, San Antonio has something that has been proven to be more powerful; they have the will to power, the ability to execute at the highest level to accomplish their goal. This is the same character that the Bulls teams had with MJ, that the Lakers had with Shaq and Kobe, and it's why the Spurs -- with everything else being equal -- have a decided advantage over the Pistons in the NBA Finals.
To paraphrase Kobe from '01, "Basketball is not about passion or energy or determination, it's about execution." And what the Spurs lack in motivation, they make up for in their ability to exert their will when it matters most.
What does game 6 of the finals say about the Spurs last year? Up 3-2 and coming home to close out a championship to prevent a game 7 where anything could happen due to injury or foul trouble, why didn't the Spurs close it out then?
I'll tell you why ... because it's not just about will to win. It's about execution. It's about the shots falling. It's about how hard the other team plays. It's about getting lucky breaks. It's about the officiating. It's about more than just will to win, that you try to implicate the Pistons lacking. And, that comment is so completely absurd when referring to a team in which its core players had just CLOSED OUT a championship the year before. Could the same have been said about the Spurs in 2004 when they choked to the Lakers? When it counted most, the Spurs couldn't recover from the .4 shot? Using your rationale, the Spurs should not have won it last year because they choked the year before.
Let the games speak for themselves, instead of using backward ass logic to try to make a point. The Spurs were the better team last year. They more than deserved the championship. Your utter disregard for the Pistons' championship mettle and heart is inexplicably foolish. I don't really blame Larry Brown. I don't blame the unfortunate calls by the refs. I can use those things to help explain the loss. But, they are not excuses, nor do they define this year's Detroit Pistons. Last year, the Spurs were the better team. The Pistons got beat by the better team. Every season is different. The way you describe the Pistons could be the same description of the Chicago Bulls before 1991. It just doesn't make sense to say because one year ago, the Pistons were not able to beat a championship team in the fourth quarter in game 7 ON THE ROAD that the Pistons won't be able to do it this year. It's simply absurd.
Damn, Kobe said that? That's pretty goodTo paraphrase Kobe from '01, "Basketball is not about passion or energy or determination, it's about execution."
Unless it's free throws???
cause the world don't move to the beat of just one drum
what might be right for you
might not be right for soooome
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