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  1. #176
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    We can blame it on this and we can blame it on that...but at the end of the day our team has not performed to the necessary quailty. End of story. I agree that sometimes the refs can make mistakes, but that's just stupid to place them as the scapegoat. Overall, do you think the Mavs are a better team this year? I'm real dissapointed in the Spurs, right now.
    Finally, a sensible post. There have been plenty of crap calls and "star" calls to go around for BOTH teams. Mav centers start the game with two fouls, it seems. As a true Spurs fan, how can you honestly blame it all on the officiating? I mean, are the Mavs not younger, more athletic and just as skilled as the Spurs? Do they not rebound well? Do they not attack the basket? Do they not shoot well from the field and the line? Are they not deep or well-coached? Quicker? Faster? Clutch?

    Come on man, the Spurs have had an awesome season and have really played well in the series. They're great, experenced, champions. But the Mavs have finally caught up. Three playoff wins in a row don't lie.

  2. #177
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    From what I have seen THIS series; in games 1, 3 & 4; NO the Mavericks are not clutch. Their FG% in the 4th is horrendous, they make bad plays and miss shots.

    After Tim Freaking Duncan was fouled out of game three - the Mavs let Manu go straight to the rack...TWICE! - At the end of 4 they give up an unconstested 3 to Finley (after MANU was fouled out) - their only baskets have come from offensive rebounds (it shows hustle, but not clutchness). That doesn't even mention the length of time without a bucket in game 1 (I'm sorry, in 3 and 4 also, but in those the Mavs didn't need to actually make buckets, did they?)

    The Spurs are winning every 4th (look it up); but the Mavs are getting the benefit of every late game call - not clutch, just taking what they are given.

    The Spurs have hit shots to keep pace with the Mavs FT bonanza - THAT'S Clutch! Over 70% in the 4th of game 3 - and damn near that in game 4!

    Talented, Yes; Athletic, Yes; Clutch? NO!!!!!

  3. #178
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    Dirk has made ZERO, count it ZERO clutch shots in the 4th quarter of this series. , the MAVS as a whole have made ZERO clutch shots in this series.
    Huh? So, Dirk has to make the clutch shots for the win to count? That's been the beauty of the Mavs all season. As good as Dirk has been, JT has been just as clutch if not moreso than Dirk all season long. Stack has won games for us in the closing seconds as well.

    You don't call Stack's off-balance, prayer over Bowen a clutch shot? What about Terry's baseline J over Timmy? Devin's overtime finger-roll?

    Man, at least try to be objective.

  4. #179
    Believe. ginobme's Avatar
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    i think he means the FTs that tied the game last night, and the other FTs that were the "game winners" in game 3

  5. #180
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    From what I have seen THIS series; in games 1, 3 & 4; NO the Mavericks are not clutch. Their FG% in the 4th is horrendous, they make bad plays and miss shots.

    After Tim Freaking Duncan was fouled out of game three - the Mavs let Manu go straight to the rack...TWICE! - At the end of 4 they give up an unconstested 3 to Finley (after MANU was fouled out) - their only baskets have come from offensive rebounds (it shows hustle, but not clutchness). That doesn't even mention the length of time without a bucket in game 1 (I'm sorry, in 3 and 4 also, but in those the Mavs didn't need to actually make buckets, did they?)

    The Spurs are winning every 4th (look it up); but the Mavs are getting the benefit of every late game call - not clutch, just taking what they are given.

    The Spurs have hit shots to keep pace with the Mavs FT bonanza - THAT'S Clutch! Over 70% in the 4th of game 3 - and damn near that in game 4!

    Talented, Yes; Athletic, Yes; Clutch? NO!!!!!

    Okay, so let me get this straight. "Clutch" has to mean making an actual basket? Rebounds, tips, deflections, don't count as clutch plays? Seems odd coming from a Spurs fan when the Spurs have been as clutch in those areas as anyone in recent memory. I mean, if the saying "defense wins championships" applies to anyone, it's the Spurs.

    Late game calls? SA gets them too, they've just not converted. Think those two chokers Tony threw up from the line mattered much?

    I guess when the Spurs go to the line it's "earned" but when other teams get there it's given to them. Geez.

  6. #181
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    Pop is a stupid

    Spurs won 62 games with Rasho and Nazr

    and have been embarrassed in both playoff series without them

    I want Pop's head -- cut off

    But they've won one game without them

  7. #182
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    does anyone know what bowen and finley said to stern's face?? where did you hear of that?

  8. #183
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    my name's busta cap.

    i have 4 posts.

    i'm a basketball expert because it says that my favorite team is the mavericks!
    No more of an expert than anyone else here, dude. Haven't been rude or abusive, just trying to talk a little hoops. Relax.

  9. #184
    GIVE IT TO GINOBILI beirmeistr's Avatar
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    Manu'sMagicalLefthand----good post 3176 re the refs. I think that before the series started, the refs attended a free luncheon sponsored by Cuban, where they were mass-hypnotized into favoring the Mavs after hearing the words "Bear Hug Defense."
    Seriously, I am left with an empty, aching feeling after seeing the Spurs somehow lose game 4.
    I haven't given up yet. I think the Spurs can pull it off if Popovich quits worrying about Avery and instead lets Avery worry about Popovich. Avery is inside Pop's head and is thereby outcoaching him so far.
    I think this small ball obsession must end. Even though I detest Nazr's hands as much as I detest karl malone, I think the Spurs should start Nazr if only to win the tipoff.Pop probably favors a more athletic Nazr over a slower Rasho. Personally, I like Rasho better.
    Just instruct Gino not to pass anything to Nazr. I also agree with Kenny Smith---Gino should be starting or playing starter minutes---40. There is no tomorrow if Spurs lose again.
    Even though this may pissoff some TP fanatics in this forum, I am very disappointed with TP in the end game. He is a tiger at the beginning or when the score is lopsided, but if you studied his face with 38 seconds to go in regular time, he looked scared.
    Again, before the start of o/t, they showed his face and he looked scared.
    Several things were exposed in those final 38 seconds of reg time, and in the o/t:
    Avery is in Pop's head,
    Pop's worst-kept secret was exposed----when the pressure reaches maximum intensity, his star point guard suffers severe attacks of eso al constric is,
    Manu Ginobili's absence in the end game hurt the Spurs a lot,
    Michael Finley is willing to take the big shot,
    Brent Barry wants to pass rather than take the big shot (at least in this game),
    the Spurs need bigger men to rebound during crunch time.
    There, I said my piece. I may be completely incorrect in my venting, but I feel better.

  10. #185
    Veteran gameFACE's Avatar
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    I generally never try to use the ref card. I believe you have to play through it. But it was pretty ridiculous last night. Those FG and FT stats that someone posted earlier are stunningly ridiculous.

    I hope the Spurs are pissed off! I'm pissed off and you can be damn sure i'll be screaming my head off tomorrow at AT&T!

  11. #186
    Seek True Love, within. bigzak25's Avatar
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    Go Spurs Go! Just Win.

    Late 4th qtr execution. No turnovers. Make your freethrows. All will be well.

    And can we have Nazr in for a little while just to send harris to the floor a time or two?

    Thanks Pop!

  12. #187
    FootballJerks.com kris's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree with Timvp's post. I know he and I both search for any other reason besides the refs that caused the Spurs to lose, but fact of the matter is the refs were directly responsible for the Spurs losing at LEAST one of those games, most likely both.

    The referees were absolutely egregious in Games 3 and 4. If it was the other way around, and the Spurs were the benefactor, I would hate winning like that. You obviously take the win, but I'd rather my team win on their own accord rather than the refs gift wrapped the game.

    I've held off writing the following, but I slept on Game 3 and it's been a few nights since Game 2 so I feel like I've given it proper respective thought.

    I know it's been mentioned that Cuban has had his hand influencing in the refs through complaining, and I believe that to be true. However, I also believe the NBA either wants an extended series, wants the Mavericks to win, and/or wants the Spurs out.

    I know that's pretty far out there, but I believe it. I believe it because I see it with my eyes. I intently watched both of the games and the replays and I watch the referees going out of their way to give super favorable calls to the Mavs and on the flip side of the coin, ignore making the same call when the same situation presents itself for the Spurs.

    The Spurs are trying to fight through the calls and just play basketball, but it's impossible when they don't balance out. It has raised the Spurs game to even higher levels, but no team can beat the Mavs and the refs at the same time.

    This is not to take away from how the Mavericks are playing. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, and Devin Harris have all been outstanding offensively. Diop has done a decent job on Duncan.

    My point is not against the Mavs because the Mavs are playing great playoff basketball and are doing what any team in their position would do - take the calls and be on the offensive. My point is that the NBA and control freak David Stern have cost the Spurs two possible playoff wins and are sullying the game's good name by tampering with the calls.

    These games would have been fantastic without all the bull calls. There is no need to adjust them unless you have an agenda.

    Here is what I believe the referees are doing:

    During the course of the game, they call it fairly regularly. Calls go both ways, balance out etc. Maybe a bad call for the Spurs, a bad call for the Mavs. However, they throw in a kink into the balance out system. Say for example in Game 1, they are unusually non-chalant about handing out Duncan fouls or in Game 2, how all of a sudden they were searching for anything that might be considered a travel violation. Let me be the first to admit that the Spurs travel a lot. Still, 1) you can't all of a sudden decide to correct every extra step the Spurs have been taking all season in Game 4 of the Conference Semifinals, when they and other teams have been guilty of traveling violations all season and 2) you can't be so intent on finding travels that you see them even when they are not there.

    Ok, so you take care of the first three quarters or so and now the game is in the balance. Now, the referees are looking to ensure the Mavericks have every chance to stay close or take the lead without being too obvious. So they throw the Spurs a bone or two. Maybe the Spurs shouldn't even have got the call, but this way after the game people can say it went both ways.

    What has been accomplished is via the referees, the Mavericks have been given the best possible chance to win the game. Obviously, you can't just post ghost points on the scoreboard and sound the buzzer to end the game so the Spurs will have a chance as long as they are on the floor, but what has happened is it has become very improbable the Spurs will win and very improbable the Mavs will lose.

    Unfortunately for the NBA and David Stern, the referees are doing a horrible job selling the calls and picking the right time to call them. When Dirk was tripped out of bounds, the referee had to stare at Dirk on the floor for 3 seconds after the play to call a foul. Why? When Tony got tripped and the ball fell out of bounds, the referee looked at the players inexplicably, paused, and then pointed to Mavs ball.

    When did the legendary tough, physical NBA playoff basketball translate into a hand check foul with 8 seconds in the game?

    How did it seem logical for one referee to anticipate a call on Manu for double dribbling, blowing his whistle amidst the Spurs obviously retaining the ball, and then the referees huddle together and call jump ball?

    Everything balances out right on both sides right? Then how come the time the referees blow a call in the Spurs favor Tony's shot hitting the rim, they give it right back to the Mavs and call an offensive foul on Duncan one second after the inbounds?

    What's scary is how little they used to justify that offensive foul. David Stern's version of the script didn't have them being that obvious with the foul or the make-up call.

    If David Stern was really in search of the best referees and ensuring only the best for the integrity of his league, he would most assuredly get rid of Bavetta. Why is this guy still reffing the most important games in the playoffs? He is an absolutely horrid referee.

    Any fan of any team can account for how many calls he misses/makes up. The guy should be retired. He's 66. He is eligible for full Social Security benefits. It is a proven fact that his physical tools and skills to referee have naturally declined due to age. It doesn't matter how cute he thinks he is or how alive he feels when refereeing a big game. He shouldn't be doing it according to Stern's pursuit of what is best for the game. You could even ask one Jerry Stackhouse if he agrees. But, alas he is a puppet for Stern. Bavetta probably sold out a long time ago for a little grease on his palm. Perhaps a guarantee of longevity or more lucrative package for senior referees in exchange for a few well placed calls. Probably didn't start out big, but it ended as a nice way for the control freak to have a say on and off the court.

    Concluding, I want to add that I didn't even think the Spurs would make it to the NBA Finals before the playoffs. I didn't think they deserved to after the poor showing they made during the regular season. I don't know if they do right now. What I do know is they deserve better than having to play in conditioned games where they have to make up 6 more points than they normally would because the referees are jobbing them.

    I, as a fan of the game and the Spurs, feel robbed when I watch a team's field goals get matched point for point with free throws in the last 8 minutes of the fourth quarter. If the Spurs lost because they didn't match the Mavericks, that's fine and after the series I'll start thinking how the Spurs need to make some offseason moves. But it's unfair to have to think of what might have been because of the referees pulling the game to the Mavs.

    The most disgusting thing about it is it's plain of day. If you're a Maverick fan and you want to say the Spurs fans are being babies or hypocritical or whatever, go ahead, but in the back of your mind you know the Mavericks had a lot of help. If nothing else, look to Popovich's quotes. Here's a man who has never even acknowledged the referees existance and now had to admit there are somethings you can't control. What do you think those things are?

    In the basketball world, complaining about the referees is a sin. Yeah, we are complained about the calls, but to you Mavs fans that are trying to play the high road card and parroting "but Josh Howard's block was clean," - we'll see you in .

  13. #188
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Well said Kris.

  14. #189
    PhillyGirl 1Parker1's Avatar
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    I, as a fan of the game and the Spurs, feel robbed when I watch a team's field goals get matched point for point with free throws in the last 8 minutes of the fourth quarter.
    I'll agree with that.

  15. #190
    Believe. KingsFanWithoutName's Avatar
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    This isn't meant to stir things up..................there is already enough of that already going around. I really want to hear what you guys think about this and want some honest opinions. Here is the question.........................



    Do you honestly think that the refs have it in for the Spurs and there is some sort of plan to help the Mavs win?

    If you do believe this, with all of your heart, will you continue to watch the NBA, or is this the last straw?


    I've felt screwed before during games my team has lost, but I never have made some of the comments I've read on here, and I had to witness the game 6 vs. the Lakers. Are these comments what some of you truly feel, or are they just posted out of anger and despair?

  16. #191
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree with Timvp's post. I know he and I both search for any other reason besides the refs that caused the Spurs to lose, but fact of the matter is the refs were directly responsible for the Spurs losing at LEAST one of those games, most likely both.

    The referees were absolutely egregious in Games 3 and 4. If it was the other way around, and the Spurs were the benefactor, I would hate winning like that. You obviously take the win, but I'd rather my team win on their own accord rather than the refs gift wrapped the game.

    I've held off writing the following, but I slept on Game 3 and it's been a few nights since Game 2 so I feel like I've given it proper respective thought.

    I know it's been mentioned that Cuban has had his hand influencing in the refs through complaining, and I believe that to be true. However, I also believe the NBA either wants an extended series, wants the Mavericks to win, and/or wants the Spurs out.

    I know that's pretty far out there, but I believe it. I believe it because I see it with my eyes. I intently watched both of the games and the replays and I watch the referees going out of their way to give super favorable calls to the Mavs and on the flip side of the coin, ignore making the same call when the same situation presents itself for the Spurs.

    The Spurs are trying to fight through the calls and just play basketball, but it's impossible when they don't balance out. It has raised the Spurs game to even higher levels, but no team can beat the Mavs and the refs at the same time.

    This is not to take away from how the Mavericks are playing. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, and Devin Harris have all been outstanding offensively. Diop has done a decent job on Duncan.

    My point is not against the Mavs because the Mavs are playing great playoff basketball and are doing what any team in their position would do - take the calls and be on the offensive. My point is that the NBA and control freak David Stern have cost the Spurs two possible playoff wins and are sullying the game's good name by tampering with the calls.

    These games would have been fantastic without all the bull calls. There is no need to adjust them unless you have an agenda.

    Here is what I believe the referees are doing:

    During the course of the game, they call it fairly regularly. Calls go both ways, balance out etc. Maybe a bad call for the Spurs, a bad call for the Mavs. However, they throw in a kink into the balance out system. Say for example in Game 1, they are unusually non-chalant about handing out Duncan fouls or in Game 2, how all of a sudden they were searching for anything that might be considered a travel violation. Let me be the first to admit that the Spurs travel a lot. Still, 1) you can't all of a sudden decide to correct every extra step the Spurs have been taking all season in Game 4 of the Conference Semifinals, when they and other teams have been guilty of traveling violations all season and 2) you can't be so intent on finding travels that you see them even when they are not there.

    Ok, so you take care of the first three quarters or so and now the game is in the balance. Now, the referees are looking to ensure the Mavericks have every chance to stay close or take the lead without being too obvious. So they throw the Spurs a bone or two. Maybe the Spurs shouldn't even have got the call, but this way after the game people can say it went both ways.

    What has been accomplished is via the referees, the Mavericks have been given the best possible chance to win the game. Obviously, you can't just post ghost points on the scoreboard and sound the buzzer to end the game so the Spurs will have a chance as long as they are on the floor, but what has happened is it has become very improbable the Spurs will win and very improbable the Mavs will lose.

    Unfortunately for the NBA and David Stern, the referees are doing a horrible job selling the calls and picking the right time to call them. When Dirk was tripped out of bounds, the referee had to stare at Dirk on the floor for 3 seconds after the play to call a foul. Why? When Tony got tripped and the ball fell out of bounds, the referee looked at the players inexplicably, paused, and then pointed to Mavs ball.

    When did the legendary tough, physical NBA playoff basketball translate into a hand check foul with 8 seconds in the game?

    How did it seem logical for one referee to anticipate a call on Manu for double dribbling, blowing his whistle amidst the Spurs obviously retaining the ball, and then the referees huddle together and call jump ball?

    Everything balances out right on both sides right? Then how come the time the referees blow a call in the Spurs favor Tony's shot hitting the rim, they give it right back to the Mavs and call an offensive foul on Duncan one second after the inbounds?

    What's scary is how little they used to justify that offensive foul. David Stern's version of the script didn't have them being that obvious with the foul or the make-up call.

    If David Stern was really in search of the best referees and ensuring only the best for the integrity of his league, he would most assuredly get rid of Bavetta. Why is this guy still reffing the most important games in the playoffs? He is an absolutely horrid referee.

    Any fan of any team can account for how many calls he misses/makes up. The guy should be retired. He's 66. He is eligible for full Social Security benefits. It is a proven fact that his physical tools and skills to referee have naturally declined due to age. It doesn't matter how cute he thinks he is or how alive he feels when refereeing a big game. He shouldn't be doing it according to Stern's pursuit of what is best for the game. You could even ask one Jerry Stackhouse if he agrees. But, alas he is a puppet for Stern. Bavetta probably sold out a long time ago for a little grease on his palm. Perhaps a guarantee of longevity or more lucrative package for senior referees in exchange for a few well placed calls. Probably didn't start out big, but it ended as a nice way for the control freak to have a say on and off the court.

    Concluding, I want to add that I didn't even think the Spurs would make it to the NBA Finals before the playoffs. I didn't think they deserved to after the poor showing they made during the regular season. I don't know if they do right now. What I do know is they deserve better than having to play in conditioned games where they have to make up 6 more points than they normally would because the referees are jobbing them.

    I, as a fan of the game and the Spurs, feel robbed when I watch a team's field goals get matched point for point with free throws in the last 8 minutes of the fourth quarter. If the Spurs lost because they didn't match the Mavericks, that's fine and after the series I'll start thinking how the Spurs need to make some offseason moves. But it's unfair to have to think of what might have been because of the referees pulling the game to the Mavs.

    The most disgusting thing about it is it's plain of day. If you're a Maverick fan and you want to say the Spurs fans are being babies or hypocritical or whatever, go ahead, but in the back of your mind you know the Mavericks had a lot of help. If nothing else, look to Popovich's quotes. Here's a man who has never even acknowledged the referees existance and now had to admit there are somethings you can't control. What do you think those things are?

    In the basketball world, complaining about the referees is a sin. Yeah, we are complained about the calls, but to you Mavs fans that are trying to play the high road card and parroting "but Josh Howard's block was clean," - we'll see you in .
    Bravo. Post of the day.

  17. #192
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    omg we got robbed by Stern and Cuban!

    Give the spurs a win

  18. #193
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    Interesting post kris.

  19. #194
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Pop is a stupid

    Spurs won 62 games with Rasho and Nazr

    and have been embarrassed in both playoff series without them

    I want Pop's head -- cut off

    Mavs are a nightmare of a match up problem. I don't know that there is much Sho or Nazr could do for us.

  20. #195
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    does anyone know what bowen and finley said to stern's face?? where did you hear of that?

    http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthre...t=41196&page=1


    I guess if you missed that you also missed Ernie Johnson showing a highlight of Bowen looking at and telling Stern in the crowd "that was terrible" after the call on him when guarding Dirk at the end.

  21. #196
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Does anyone have David Stern, Mark Cuban, or Ba ingassvetta's address????



    I swear I'm gonna thrill one of these guys.

  22. #197
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Now that I've found the right thread:


    I can't believe this nig . In such a big stage of basketball, in the NBA playoffs, the refs have managed to end the Spurs' season (if the Spurs are to lose again), and have givin two straight games to the Mavs. Anyone who watched game 4 and says that the Mavs won fair and square is full of . The refs are part of the Mavs roster.

    I really can't understand how something so cheap happens like this. Why can't they just let the teams play the damn game???

    Dirk got saved so many times, I mean, that last call in game 4 which earned Dirk 2 FT's to tie the game and send it to OT was rediculous. If anything, that was an offensive foul. After watching the play a bunch of times, you can see that Bowen did absolutely nothing illegal or against the rules, while Dirk was elbowing Bruce, trying to push him away. That was bull to the extreme.

    I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna have to make a major change. My options are:

    a) Downgrade from being a diehard fan to a casual fan

    b) Never, ever watch another NBA game for the rest of my life.

    I can't watch a game of basketball if they are going to constantly call such horse , these games that I've been watching aren't even basketball anymore. Any little touch is a foul, it's incredible. People would expect old s like Bavetta to be a little old school and be a fan of some tough basketball, but I guess not. These mother ers make the NBA look like the WNBA, and that's an understatement.

    Bavetta, Crawford, all other bull refs, Mark Cuban, and David Stern all need to go kill themselves immediately. I don't even give a right now, I want to choke that nig piece of old Bavetta.

  23. #198
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    David Stern was at the game in person last night to make sure the Mavs would win the game.


    He was in the stands all nervous in the 4th quarter when the Spurs were starting to take control.

  24. #199
    Believe. KingsFanWithoutName's Avatar
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    Alvarez--Here is my question to you since no one has bothered to answer it and I know you'll give your honest opinion


    This isn't meant to stir things up..................there is already enough of that already going around. I really want to hear what you guys think about this and want some honest opinions. Here is the question.........................



    Do you honestly think that the refs have it in for the Spurs and there is some sort of plan to help the Mavs win?

    If you do believe this, with all of your heart, will you continue to watch the NBA, or is this the last straw?


    I've felt screwed before during games my team has lost, but I never have made some of the comments I've read on here, and I had to witness the game 6 vs. the Lakers. Are these comments what some of you truly feel, or are they just posted out of anger and despair?

  25. #200
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Why is David Stern spending all of his time worrying about all this little bull like the players dress code and not allowing players to wear stockings????

    Man, what this chode really needs to do is get some younger, non-bull refs.


    Bavetta is an old piece of that deserves to die. What a .

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