IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[dimsah]

I can't understand how Spurs fans don't know DRob's game.
He's the reason I became a fan of the Spurs. I'm not exactly close to San Antonio (born in the panhandle), but I couldn't find a better role model as a basketball player anywhere. I was 12 then. He embodied everything that most people claim to want in a professional athlete, magnificent both on and off the court, and I'm still a fan to this day because that legacy has carried over to current Spurs with Tim Duncan. I'm not going to get into this debate about who was better, but I urge Spurs fans who aren't as familiar with Drob as some of us to please find some archive footage, and watch, and watch, and watch,
and marvel at the things he could do.

[DirkAB]

Shaq's impact was no-where even close on any of his comings and goings.

From 92-96, the only person you can really put about Robinson was Jordan and Dream. And the only reason Dream wins out is the head-to-head dismemberment of Robinson.

So what's your point with the 4 years?

Let's do this. Shaq, 99-03:

286 games. 8,132 points (28.43 per game), 939 PF (3.28), 808 TO (2.83), 739 Blocks (2.58), 162 Steals (0.57), 982 Assists (3.43), 1121 Off Reb (3.92), 2354 Def Reb (8.23), 11044 Min (38.62), 1780/3238 FTs (54.97%), 3176/5527 FG (57.46%)

Robinson, 92-96:

325 games. 8,588 points (26.42 per game), 959 PF (2.95), 917 TO (2.82), 1062 Blocks (3.27), 311 Steals (1.57), 1165 Assists (3.58), 1023 Off Reb (3.15), 2665 Def Reb (8.20), 12545 Min (38.6), 2536/3361 FTs (75.45%), 3015/5871 FGs (51.35%).

Sorry, Robinson wins that in my opinion.

Shaq's comings and goings didn't have as big of an impact? In Orlando they went from the Finals in '95 (57 wins) and in the conference finals in '96 (60 wins), to not even making it out of the first round in '97 (45 wins). The Lakers went from getting to the finals 4 of 5 years, in which they won 3 rings, to not even making the playoffs, and you're saying he presence wasn't as impactful as Robinsons?

In those stats that you posted above, you left out the most important one:

Shaq won 3 rings

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

If you all want to throw the rings out there to back Duncan's case, then you better be prepared for it to get thrown back in your face with Robinson, especially if we're talking prime.

[whottt]

Don't be deleting this ...and don't be saying you're a Lakerfan either...you fool no one, bobby joe.

Hakeem was every bit the athlete Robinson was if not moreso. The guy was 3" shorter than DRob and still blocked more shots and got way more steals and just as many freaky offensive moves. This is why Robinson always struggled so badly against Hakeem, because Hakeem was just as quick as him and that was Robinson's mealticket to success.

You must be 12 or on crack if you think Hakeem was a fast as David was...

He was not as fast as David was...he was post up bigman.

You can say Hakeem was more skilled all you want...and you'd be accurate about that, but he wasn't as fast as Drob, and I'll give you a long argument on which was the better athlete...David Robinson's entire career was due to his athleticism...

This is why he was the first guy in NBA history to block over 300 shots per season his first 3 years in the NBA...

This is why he and Jordan are the only guys to lead the NBA in scoring and be a DPOY.

It took Hakeem years to develop his game to the level he finally did...he wasn't an outstanding shotblocker when he first came into the NBA...it took him years to do it...

He was tutored by Moses Malone on hus offensive game as well.

David Robinson sat on his butt for 2 years in the NBA came into the league and blocked over 300 ing shots.

All David had to do was step foot on the court...Hakeem had to work at it. And Hakeem's game was very much due to yearly improvement, great footwork and fundamental play.

Statistically they were freaks...but the similarities end there.

Please spare the 30-12 regular season mark, because SA went 13-1 against Houston after acquiring Duncan and when Hakeem started to decline.

Additionally the 2 games you mention Hakeem still outscored and outrebounded and outshot David, but the Spurs one so it's not like Robinson ever outplayed Hakeem even one game that series in 95. In one of those Spurs wins, Hakeem had 45 points!

How are playoffs misguided? Can you win a championship in the regular season? Nothing is on the line until the postseason. This is what separates Shaq, TD, and Hakeem from DRob.

This is bull ...first game I actually saw them play together Drob held ing Hakeem 6 points...he was like a rookie or a second year player.

Their matchups were totally dictated by whether or not Hakeem got in foul trouble...if Hakeem stayed out of foul trouble, he'd have a good game and it was good for the Rockets...if he didn't...then Rockets were in trouble.

The Rockets knew this nature of their matchup...and that's why they were prepared for it in those playoffs.


And don't give me this about the regular season not mattering...

Smack dab middle of Hakeem's career a healthy Hakeem didn't even make the ing playoffs and his ass got swept a ton of times too..

His ass wasn't even on the court the first time the Rockets went to the finals...Ralph Sampson hit the shot to put them there.


Oh yeah...Hakeem played with Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen...and he got his bounced from the playoffs...and don't give me that he was old either...Drob was old when he started winning les.


Live by the playoffs, die by the playoffs.

[Phenomanul]

I guess whottt finally decided to educate the young ones... yeah, I know it's depressing when people don't get their facts straight or pretend to use only one set of criteria such as playoff dominance for their analysis of evaluating the better of A vs. B player... when basketball is clearly a team sport...

The better talent between DRob and Shaq is as clear as spring water... to me anyway... Shaq has no game 6 feet away from the bucket... And DRob at least had jumper. His go-to move was beating guys off the dribble whereas Shaqs go-to move has always been to pummel his defender to the ground...

[RC's Boss]

Hakeem (would on any post player in his prime) a mesh of DRob's ath;eticism w/ Kareem's moves.... Tim/Shaq (tie, unless Shaq gets another finals MVP). No disrespect to DRob and the others, but they are not in the above mentioned league. Garnett???? Not a true post player, more like a versatile foward like Nowitski.

[DirkAB]

I guess whottt finally decided to educate the young ones... yeah, I know it's depressing when people don't get their facts straight or pretend to use only one set of criteria such as playoff dominance for their analysis of evaluating the better of A vs. B player... when basketball is clearly a team sport...

The better talent between DRob and Shaq is as clear as spring water... to me anyway... Shaq has no game 6 feet away from the bucket... And DRob at least had jumper. His go-to move was beating guys off the dribble whereas Shaqs go-to move has always been to pummel his defender to the ground...

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.

[RC's Boss]

I'm a DRob fan, but like Bill Russell once said, "what makes you great, regardless of size, is how well you use the body you were born with." Shaq may not be able to play outside the paint, but DRob's athleticism was never as good as Shaq's strength on the inside. Now Tim on the other hand, while not as fast, can run up and down the floor if need be (swimmers have good conditioning) and unlike DRob he has moves in the post to rival any post player in history.

[whottt]

I'm a DRob fan, but like Bill Russell once said, "what makes you great, regardless of size, is how well you use the body you were born with." Shaq may not be able to play outside the paint, but DRob's athleticism was never as good as Shaq's strength on the inside. Now Tim on the other hand, while not as fast, can run up and down the floor if need be (swimmers have good conditioning) and unlike DRob he has moves in the post to rival any post player in history.

Bill Russell needs to shut the up and realize he played with 3-5 other HOF'ers every ing year of his career, played in an area where teams could control the talent in regions of the nation, and where most of the teams served as minor league clubs for the big teams...it also didn't hurt that there were only like 3 teams in the NBA back then...

Bill Russell isn't fit to hold Wilt Chamberains jock...I don't care if he's got rings in his nose.

[Phenomanul]

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.

I've been on other threads... while you were being made a fool no less...

And this after I recommended you not call others fools...

[RC's Boss]

Are you serious?!?!?!?! Regardless of how many teams there were, you can't deny this dude's greatness! He heaps praises on Tim all the time, R U going to say he needs to shut the F@!& up then?!?!?!?! And if you would just watch NBA TV sometimes you would know that Russell LET Chamberlin score as long as no one else on Wilt's team scored. Watch some of those old black and white games and you will see Bill shut him down near the end of games if needed. THAT IS A FACT! He, like Tim, was an unselfish team player who only wanted to win. If he were in his prime, I would take him to roll w/ Timmy on the block ANYDAY over DRob or Shaq, quote me, save it on your hard drive, copy to your reply, or whatever you want

[resistanze]

Been out the whole day...good thread we got going on here

[miss paxton]

Shaq won 3 rings.

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

Okay, BAkriD, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but I don't understand what you're saying. I assume you know David Robinson does have two rings, both of which came after going through Shaq's team. Shaq also won two rings going through David's teams.

The stats fyatuk quoted were to compare the two men in their primes. I guess you're saying that when they were in their primes, Shaq had three rings and David Robinson had none. I notice you jumped from 1995 to 1997 and then to the Lakers getting to the finals four out of five years (which was of course 2000-2002 and 2004). Why are you omitting the other years? Shaq came to LA in 1996. In their first playoffs with Shaq (1996-1997), they lost in the WCSF 1-4 to Utah. The next year (1997-1998), the Lakers made it to the WCF, where they were swept by Utah. Then, in 1999, the Spurs swept the Lakers in the WCSF. Your post implied that, not only did Orlando self-destruct when Shaq left, the Lakers immediately shot to the top of the league. That just didn't happen. People rightly remember how dominant the Lakers were in 2001, but that first championship run in 2000 was pretty shaky (a run in which Shaq did not face David, by the way)--it took them the full five to get rid of Sacramento, they had an easier time in the next round going 4-1 against Phoenix, then won a tough 7 game series against Portland and won in 6 in the Finals against Indiana.

So what were the Spurs doing in those missing years from 1996-1999, you ask? Or maybe you didn't, but anyway: 1996-1997 Robinson was out virtually the entire year due to injury, and the Spurs landed Duncan. 1997-1998, as I recall the Spurs lost to the Jazz in the first round. 1999, the Spurs won the le.

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that history will view Shaq as a more dominant player, and even a better one, than David. But I think the reasons Spurs fans don't see it that way is not due to blind homerism, but because, as strangeweather put it so well:

The usual Spurs fan version of the history of that period is a bit different than everyone else's. The world at large (basically correctly) sees the Shaq of that period as uncontrollable and Kobe as his sidekick. Spurs fans mostly remember Shaq as the guy we could keep under control, and Kobe as the one who could completely go off. Finally in '03, the Spurs still had Shaq under controls, they had Bowen on Kobe and had a better supporting cast than the Lakers, which was good enough to beat them even though David was in his last year. So for Spurs fans, this is an argument in its own right, independent of the question of how good Shaq was vs. everyone else.

[whottt]

Are you serious?!?!?!?! Regardless of how many teams there were, you can't deny this dude's greatness! He heaps praises on Tim all the time, R U going to say he needs to shut the F@!& up then?!?!?!?!

Depends on if he's talking out of his ass...I mean rings.

I've also seen that tool say he could've have shut down Shaq if he wanted too...

Get out on the court and prove it , in an era when Mugsy Bogues wouldn't have played C, otherwise STFU.

And if you would just watch NBA TV sometimes you would know that Russell LET Chamberlin score as long as no one else on Wilt's team scored.

So was Russelll guarding everyone else on Wilt's team? Or were his teamates?

I want you to explain to me how Bill Russell was responsible for the major part of the plan working...IE no one else on Wilt's team scoring...can he guard 5 guys at once?

Take a look at the point you just made...

You just basically said Bill Russll didn't do to defend his man while his teamates shut everyone else down...

Watch some of those old black and white games and you will see Bill shut him down near the end of games if needed. THAT IS A FACT! He, like Tim, was an unselfish team player who only wanted to win. If he were in his prime, I would take him to roll w/ Timmy on the block ANYDAY over DRob or Shaq, quote me, save it on your hard drive, copy to your reply, or whatever you want

Robert Horry can talk through an assload of rings and is unselfish too...

Robert Horry so was unselfish he never sought offensive or defensive credit...he'd just let his man score make sure no one on the other team scored..


and he was generous enough to let his bigmen win the post season MVP's and lead the team in scoring and rebounding, while he just made sure the won it at the end.

Since Robert Horry played in an era in which there was more than one team in the NBA and the height of the average starting C was greater than 4'11...Robert Horry>Bill Russell.

I rate Bill Russell just behind John Salley on the ringers list....John Salley let his man score as long as none of their teamates scored...he was also unselfish enough to let all his teamates get the PT, rebounds and points.

Let's ask John Sallley to chime in on this subject.


Oh and Bill Russell is Wilt Chamberlains biggest fan, and is the first guy to say he had the better team. To be a great player you have to understand it's teams that win championships, not individuals, which is why I always find it ironic when Ring arguers try to use him to back up their one man team arguments.

[DirkAB]

The stats fyatuk quoted were to compare the two men in their primes. I guess you're saying that when they were in their primes, Shaq had three rings and David Robinson had none.

That is the exact point I was making, and I'm glad you caught it.

Okay, BAkriDYour post implied that, not only did Orlando self-destruct when Shaq left, the Lakers immediately shot to the top of the league.

Honestly, I really didn't mean to imply that. The point that I was trying to make was what happened to the teams that Shaq had left. Both Orlando and LA went from being on the top tier of the league, to a first round exit and a non-playoff team.

[whottt]

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.

I'll say it exlicitly...I think Drob was better. In fact I know it. I watched them play. Drob used to frustrate the out of Shaq, more than any other player.

You ever watch a slow player try to guard a quick player? You ever have the misfortune of experiencing that your self?

There is nothing that makes you feel like a bigger loser than trying to guard some mother er that makes you feel like you are stuck in molases.

Watch how much of a Horry turns into when this happens to him...

Shaq used to get really annoyed about it...lot of guys did, which is why they never let Drob in the club...Christian Boy Mr. Nice guy Smartypants Goody two shoes that could dunk on them like they were a CBA reject...and there wasn't a mother ikgn thing they could do about it. I'd have hated him too most likely.

[RC's Boss]

Bill Russell gaurded the paint. When he wasn't blocking shots, he was altering them. Is John Salley in the HOF? And I assume you are an adult so why are you so vulgar. I see posts talking about Mavs fans w/ no class all the time, you seem like that type. Calm down little person. Do you not have a vocabulary large enough to express your thoughts in a CLASSY manner, or are you one of those fans that turns beyotch anytime someone has an opinion that differs from yours! Most elders say if block were a recorded stat, Russell would easily be the all-time leading shot blocker. I heard Walt Frazier say he remembers when he used to watch the Celtics Russell HAD to have averaged 10bpg! It may have been an exagerration, but damn!

[DirkAB]

I'll say it exlicitly...I think Drob was better. In fact I know it. I watched them play. Drob used to frustrate the out of Shaq, more than any other player.

You ever watch a slow player try to guard a quick player? You ever have the misfortune of experiencing that your self?

There is nothing that makes you feel like a bigger loser than trying to guard some mother er that makes you feel like you are stuck in molases.

Wrong answer, try again.

[fyatuk]

Shaq's comings and goings didn't have as big of an impact? In Orlando they went from the Finals in '95 (57 wins) and in the conference finals in '96 (60 wins), to not even making it out of the first round in '97 (45 wins). The Lakers went from getting to the finals 4 of 5 years, in which they won 3 rings, to not even making the playoffs, and you're saying he presence wasn't as impactful as Robinsons?

In those stats that you posted above, you left out the most important one:

Shaq won 3 rings

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

If you all want to throw the rings out there to back Duncan's case, then you better be prepared for it to get thrown back in your face with Robinson, especially if we're talking prime.

And you prove my point. The Magic lost about 15 more games without Shaq. The spurs lost 39 more games without Robinson in the year he was injured.

When Shaq joined the Lakers, he made a grand difference of 2 games. When he left (and the team was blown up and completely re-designed with coach issues, etc), they lost 22 more.

The rings argument is pointless in this case. Robinson had an all-star teamate twice (93 and 96). Shaq has never played a year without at least one fellow all-star (that I can think of). And really has always had another player considered to be one of the best in the league (Penny, Kobe, Wade). You can't even begin to argue that Shaq didn't have vastly superior teammates until after Robinson's injury.

Also if you look at the year by year stats, you see that in their 4 "prime" years, Robinson stayed much healthier (he missed 3 games in 4 years as opposed to shaq missing an average of 6-10 a year), and was more consistent with his numbers.

You put Robinson on that Lakers team instead of Shaq, they would have been even better then they were with Shaq. Simple as that.

I like it when we Spurs fans are made fun of for pointing to rings to prove we're a better team, but other people feel qualified to point to rings to prove a player is better than another...

[RC's Boss]

The '06 Spurs are not big losers but ALL the Mavs were quicker w/ the exception of Tony and Manu! They sure as didn't feel like losers against Amare and PHX in the '05 WCF

[flipcritic]

This is another post that is impossible to answer on who is best. But I'd just like to point out to all of the Kevin McHale bashers out there, that though McHale was in the shadow of Larry Bird throughout his career, he had some the best low post moves of any big man I have ever seen.

Some could argue that Kareem was the best at the low post. In his early career he had an array of moves, but practically never needed them later on because of his "sky hook". I saw some videos of him (as Lew Alcindor) against Wilt (in his later years) and he absolutely dominated Chamberlain. Even Wilt has said that Kareem was the only one he felt, "I really needed some help to guard."

Some would say O'Neal is the best because of his power (the strongest of them all), but before he turned 30 could also be deceptively quick. His sudden spin moves on the low block in his Orlando and early Laker years was incredible for his size. For all his power and speed, he also had a soft touch (not noticed that much since he pounds it in when he can) around the basket and great foot coordination (brining down the ball on fast breaks at times) as compared to Kareem, Ewing, and Olajuwon, who couldn't bring the ball down the court if their life depended on it. But now in his later years he relies more on his strength.

Duncan doesn't have the vast array of moves as Hakeem or McHale, but he makes up for it in terms of no wasted movement, and his ability to read defenses and break them down by passing out of them at correct times. He reminds me a lot of Larry Bird in that sense, being able read the floor and judge assignments correctly to take advantage of offensive situations. He also is underrated as one of the stronger big men in the league.

Of all the big men mentioned, Robinson is the best player facing the basket, getting by defenders easily. He's basically SF in a C's body. And nobody (not even Hakeem) was as fast as he was running at full speed on fastbreaks. He also had supreme defensive instincts. Hakeem was the better shotblocker, but Robinson was the better all around defender, as in his prime, he was the NBA's supreme athlete. As he got older, the speed began to ebb, and so did his effectiveness.

The catalyst for Hakeem's moves was his "dream shake" (which Sports Illustrated deemed the greatest signature basketball move of all time). It wasn't as effective as the "sky hook", but it was totally unpredictable, as each mini-shift could result in a step-through, a fade-away, or hook shot. Whatever he chose to do after it, it pretty much always resulted in a defender locked in place, or jumping out of his shoes.

McHale didn't have a "dream shake" to rely on. I've seen him play in his prime, and I have never seen a player with the same amount of moves and countermoves (only Hakeem comes close). In terms of basic fundamentals of post play, Duncan and Kareem are the only ones I've seen who execute in the same way McHale did, but only McHale could roll out those moves in succession (he's got the best up and under of the bunch).

[miss paxton]

Ok, I got it, BAkriD . Thanks for the clarification. I don't think you were the one who decided for purposes of this argument which years would count in order to determine which were their "prime" years, and I'm not really criticizing the use of those stats. I'd agree that it's easy to say those were Shaq's prime years because of the rings. But, as whottt and others have pointed out so well, Shaq, of course, had the luxury of better players around him during his prime.

[RC's Boss]

Damn good post flip critic!

[RC's Boss]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).

[DirkAB]

You put Robinson on that Lakers team instead of Shaq, they would have been even better then they were with Shaq. Simple as that.

How do you expect anybody to take you serious with stupidass statements like that? How about the flipside of that arguement, what would Shaq do with Duncan? Really kind of pointless to talk about the what ifs and could ofs.

[whottt]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).

Hakeem did do that to David...he also did it every other guy that had the misfortune of attempting to guard him in that period...Hakeem was a flat out stud in the post.


But the question you need to be asking yourself...is how good it must have felt to Hakeem for Hakeem's defensive responsibility to have been Dennis Rodman. You can't be on the court dropping 35 on someone when you got 6 fouls...Drob averaged about 16 FTA per game in that series...do the math.