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what a ing joke.
Um, did I not state that it was opinion based on the subjective nature of the topic at hand?
Let me try again: IN MY OPINION, Mario was much more integral to the '99 championship team than AJ. IT IS ALSO MY OPINION that AJ's contributions have grown exponentially over time. Furthermore, I HUMBLY OPINE that the '99 team could have potentially won the le without AJ.
Feel free to have an opinion that disagrees with mine.
what a ing joke.
Well deserved
Props to AJ!
Last edited by Spurs Brazil; 10-02-2007 at 04:16 PM.
Big deal...David's charitable...sky is blue...
Drob paid for a meal for some dude's grandpa on this forum..that doesn't mean he thinks that guy won him a championship.
While even I'll agree AJ wasn't that great of a player, if you are looking for some on the court basketball success, look no further than what he did against the Phoenix Suns in the 1998 playoffs.
AJ freakin' destroyed the greatest threesome of point guards ever assembled. Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson, AJ had the series of his life. AJ had maybe 1/100000000000th of the natural talent of those three guys but he owned them.
Then again, that was probably before these New Age Spurs fans were Spurs fans, so maybe it doesn't count.
Grown over time? AJ was loved when he retired. Nowadays, most Spurs fans don't like AJ.
Where has it grown? Or is that just another bad opinion?
At this rate, pretty soon our team will have triple digit jersey numbers.
That must be why those experienced, gutty, veteran Spurs nutted up so well against the Lakers in 2001 and 2002, rather than pissing themselves and collapsing into the fetal position whenever LA made a run: all that "championship experience" brought by AJ teaching Duncan and Pop.
What should be the minimum criteria for getting a jersey retired? If someone get's their jersey retired for being a marginal player on the court but a good leader off of it, does that cheapen the on-court accomplishments of the other guys who had their jersey's retired because they were actually great players?
Well said.
During that series, AJ averaged 21 points, six assists and shot 65% from the field. In the deciding game 4, AJ had 30 points, seven assists and shot 11-for-15 from the field.
Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. You can say AJ wasn't great but you can't say he was a scrub. Scrubs don't light up three probably Hall of Famers at the same position.
Lame...most of the anti-AJ sentiment is because of his jersey being retired.
AJ wouldn't be near as polarizing if his jersey wasn't being retired...
And the fact Pop knew full well he was giving Manu AJ's jersey as he was handing it to him, proves this entire jersey campaign is largely a media driven heist of the Spurs retired jerseys...
If there's this much dissent, it's a probably a bad idea...
Nontheless, as long as the pro AJ argument sticks to his mascot appeal and refrains from statements like, he was a good PG, and he taught the Spurs how to win championships...the argument doesn't get near as heated.
He wasn't a great PG, and he didn't teach the Spurs how to win championships...he was part of the choking soft Spurs just like all the other guys were.
FACT.
Mario Elie OTOH, never was part of those teams.
Would Pop have survived the 2001 collapse without the 1999 championship?
Other than Tim Duncan, David Robinson, and Pop there weren't many connections between the 1999 and 2003 les. I think 2000, 2001, and 2002 reduced any "championship style" that AJ supposedly imparted in 1999 to nothing. The reason the 2003 team won a le wasn't because of AJ's lingering effect, it was because they finally had surrounded TD and Dave with some guys who could create and hit clutch shots. Amazing how much easier it becomes to beat good teams and win a le when you aren't one dimensional.
Wouldn't shoot?
From 1994-95 through 1999-00, Avery Johnson was the Spurs starting point guard. He played in 447 games and attempted 4417 shots in those games - 9.9 FGAs per game.
Let's compare that to his principal teammates at that time. I limited this survey to players who were with the club for at least two seasons and recieved significant minutes:
Tim Duncan 206 GP / 3413 FGA - 16.6 FGAs per game
David Robinson 365 GP / 5488 FGA - 15.1 FGAs per game
Sean Elliott 247 GP / 3170 FGA - 12.8 FGAs per game
Vinny Del Negro 283 GP / 2988 FGA - 10.6 FGAs per game
Avery Johnson 447 GP / 4417 FGA - 9.9 FGAs per game
Chuck Person 222 GP / 1853 FGA - 8.3 FGAs per game
Mario Elie 126 GP / 788 FGA - 6.3 FGAs per game
Jaren Jackson 210 GP / 1260 FGA - 6 FGAs per game
Will Perdue 224 GP / 1036 FGA - 4.6 FGAs per game
So Avery Johnson, option #3 or #4 every year he played, shot ten times per game. Yet, he wouldn't shoot. Interesting interpretation of "wouldn't shoot".
I suppose whott's next take is "AJ shouldn't have shot so much". Or perhaps, "Why didn't AJ shoot more?" He's unpredictable, that whott. I'll give him that.
As said before, if his jersey is lifted to the rafters, it degrades the other jerseys that are already up there.
Yeah, like Johnny Moore's.As said before, if his jersey is lifted to the rafters, it degrades the other jerseys that are already up there.
I'd rather not see AJ's number retired solely because I don't think he was one of the all-time greats of the franchise...he just doesn't measure up in my mind to the Ice's and Jimmy Si's that have graced us.
Nothing against the guy but when I think of a leader of the '99 team, AJ's name is down the list. I think of Mario Elie and moments like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAGDNHugl_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lkee...elated&search=
I've been following the Spurs since the early 80's. I worked in the locker room for John Anderson back in high school in the mid-80's. I have followed every iteration of this team for the last 25 years. I will admit that this particular topic has gotten a bit out of hand.
At first my only point was that AJ would be getting his number retired on intangibles alone, which I personally am not comfortable with, but I understand why people want it to happen. I never hated AJ, never rooted against him, never wanted him gone. Have my opinions regarding him changed since he morphed into Cuban's whiny girlfriend? Yes. Does that change how I felt about him as a Spurs player? No.
I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.
In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?
Spurs fans don't like AJ either way. They used to ... not now.
He's now coach of the Dallas Mavericks. That's how a lot of Spurs fans see him.
Do you know what his current job is?
You might want to check your "fact".
AJ has had haters his whole basketball career. Why stop now?
Like you are one to talk about mascot appeal.
Mr. Coyote > David Robinson. You are the king of mascot appeal. If it were up to you, you'd lower David Robinson's jersey and put up the Coyote's pelt.
AJ in 1999 was a championship level point guard. That means he was a good point guard. And he did have a lot to do with helping the Spurs grow from pretender to contender.
Damn, bro, why do you hate David Robinson so? You are a disgrace to Spurs fandom by calling David Robinson soft and a choker. That's even worse than your "mascot appeal" take.
Robinson was a great player. You need to find a new team to root for if you can't accept that fact.
Lame.
You can't pull jerseys down once they are hoisted up unless they belong to OJ, but you can stop a precedent. Personally, I think Jr's situation was very unique and cannot be used to rationalize anything for AJ.Yeah, like Johnny Moore's.
1999 was the most important year in this franchise's history. And it wasn't an overnight thing. AJ was one of the main driving forces behind the team that helped propel the team over the hump. There is a huge difference between being a great team and being a championship team. Just ask the Mavs and the Suns.
You need players who not only fight for the ring, you also need players who believe that it can happen. AJ believed and did everything in his power to help this team win a championship. There was nothing more he could have done on or off the court. If he wasn't organizing offseason practices, he was begging Mario Elie to come on board for less money to help the Spurs win a ring.
Secondly, AJ isn't and never really was a fan favorite. Back when he played, Spurs fan always wanted a new point guard. Nowadays, if the jersey decision was based on a vote, he likely wouldn't have his jersey raised to the rafters.
He may have at one point been a fan favorite to casual Spurs fans but those days are long over. The modern day Spurs fan doesn't care about AJ. They just know he coaches the Mavs and he used to play for the team back in the day.
Translation:
AJ was dead last in shots out of the starting 5, being dared to shoot the most.
Thanks for doing that work for me....
For me, the defining moment of AJ's toughness and leadership was the 96-97 season...
It takes one of a tough man to suck that bad....day after day after day.
While this statement is technically correct because he was the starting point guard on a championship team, that is sort of like saying Nazr was a championship level center in 2005.
btw, AJ's regular season stats: 9.7 ppg and 7.4 apg both 5 year lows for him.
Playoffs? 12.6 ppg and 7.4 apg. Raised his scoring average slightly, but assists were the same as the regular season.
Help me understand where he was a better point guard and raised his play to championship level in '99 than he was in the previous 5 years.
I'm not contending that he hurt team in any way, shape or form. I'm just not going to agree that his performance in either the regular season or playoffs was "championship caliber". He did not raise his game to another level that year. In fact, he statistically regressed.
This is the best vote "No" I've read today. I don't agree with it, but it's a much better argument than the others. The second part of your post is the one I wanted to weigh in on.I've been following the Spurs since the early 80's. I worked in the locker room for John Anderson back in high school in the mid-80's. I have followed every iteration of this team for the last 25 years. I will admit that this particular topic has gotten a bit out of hand.
At first my only point was that AJ would be getting his number retired on intangibles alone, which I personally am not comfortable with, but I understand why people want it to happen. I never hated AJ, never rooted against him, never wanted him gone. Have my opinions regarding him changed since he morphed into Cuban's whiny girlfriend? Yes. Does that change how I felt about him as a Spurs player? No.
I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.
In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?
I agree with this assessment for the most part, except the "marginal talent" phrase. I would say, "slightly above average". I just don't think a marginal player could play 1000 games unless he was a seven-footer.I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.
That's your opinion and I agree with it, but I would also add to it that Avery was a fan favorite because unlike so many players, Avery was a player that worked. It was obvious from his physical condition and the seasonal improvement of his outside shot that Avery took his job seriously. That he was dedicated, that he had personal pride, that he was reliable, that he cared.In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?
When a team chooses to honor a player like that (Bruce Bowen is another), it is responding to fans who respect those kind of virtues. Isaiah Rider was a much better player than Avery Johnson, but he didn't respect himself or the game as much as Avery did. He felt that it was good enough to just show up and play, and for a player of Rider's ability, it usually was "good enough". When players with the talent and work ethic of an Isaiah Rider finish their careers, they can look back on a few All-Star games and a lot of points scored. But they will never be honored anywhere because through their actions, they made it clear that they didn't care enough to be professionals.
Occasionally, a player of limited ability who works hard and conducts himself as a professional will see his name up in the rafters one day. Dave Twardzik, Brad Davis, Al Attles, and now Avery Johnson. When you combine a top work ethic with a top-notch talent, you get to go to the Hall of Fame.
I'd say Avery Johnson established pretty high standards, in answer to your last question.
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