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  1. #176
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    The trinity was incorportated by the Catholic Church as a way to please the pagans that they tried to convert all over Europe. This is historical fact. The pagans of Europe, prior to the arrival of Jesus, had already developed the concept of a tri-god. Implementing the concept of the trinity to the Christian faith made for a smoother transition in terms of converting the pagans.

    Are you a Jehovah or not.......

  2. #177
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    The Christian adoption of the he occurred after the legalization of the Church in A.D. 313. Prior to that time, since the Church was an underground movement whose members lived more or less communally out of necessity, the concept of the he would not have made sense -- they regarded all their resources as common to the church.

    The Ante-Nicene fathers do not refer to the he specifically, but they do refer to the giving of "firstfruits" to the clergy and to the poor. Several proclaim that the rich are obligated to give more generously than the poor.

    It should be noted that both the Hebrew he and the Christian he through medieval times were in kind, since until recent times, farmers and craftsmen made up the bulk of the population.

    The practice of the he is not uniform throughout Christendom. Especially in countries where there is no separation of church and state, the church will receive funding from the tax rolls. This is how it is in Russia, and is part of the reason the Russian Orthodox Church is the U.S. is always strapped for cash -- its parishioners are not accustomed to giving.

    In some European countries, registered church members are required to pay a tax between 1% and 2.5% of their income to the church. If they want to stop paying the tax, they must pe ion to be removed from the church rolls, in which case they will no longer be allowed to take comminion.

    In sum, I cannot say definitively that the he is binding upon Christians. However, it pays to notice that the Southern Baptists, who are just about the most faithful hers out there, can fund several Christian colleges, and have one of the most potent international missions organizations in all of Christendom, while the Orthodox, who are just about the worst, have virtually no profile whatsoever outside of the traditionally Orthodox nations.

    I've been in (and subsequently left) a church that squandered millions of dollars of hes and offerings on pointless remodeling. In a church like that which has way too much money to begin with, I don't see the point of giving them the he. Better to send that money directly to missions or to a struggling young church that can use the money. I also question building a 10,000-seat megachurch complex complete with theater seats, a surround-sound A/V system, and a restaurant. But who can argue against the faithful stewardship to resources to promote the spread of the gospel and the discipleship of church members, and to help those in need?
    Damn ES, I'm impressed.

  3. #178
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    PeeWee.....are you a Witness??? Im guessing you are.......

  4. #179
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    Are you a Jehovah or not.......
    Jehovah is the name of god, regardless of what sect your in.

    It's in the bible, every bible.

    So, no, I'm not Jehovah.

    But, to answer a previous question.
    I belong to no particular sect or christian faith.

    I was raised a "Jehovah's Witness" on one side of the family and Catholic on the other side. There was also a heavy Episcopalian and 7th Day Adventist influence in my family.

    So, while I had a chance to choose from any of them . . . I chose neither of them.

  5. #180
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Jehovah is the name of god, regardless of what sect your in.

    It's in the bible, every bible.

    So, no, I'm not Jehovah.

    But, to answer a previous question.
    I belong to no particular sect or christian faith.

    I was raised a "Jehovah's Witness" on one side of the family and Catholic on the other side. There was also a heavy Episcopalian and 7th Day Adventist influence in my family.

    So, while I had a chance to choose from any of that . . . I chose neither of them.

    Thanks for answering my question honestly. I feel the 7th day adventist and Witness are kind of shady as well, since they were created when an original church faith split because of the pastor being a false prophet. He kept predicting the world was going to end. I read up on the whole situation......and of all religions, these are just as shady as all.


  6. #181
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    Thanks for answering my question honestly. I feel the 7th day adventist and Witness are kind of shady as well, since they were created when an original church faith split because of the pastor being a false prophet. He kept predicting the world was going to end. I read up on the whole situation......and of all religions, these are just as shady as all.

    When God is taken out of the equation, all religions are dubious.

    I especially hate when religions/faiths themselves to politics.

  7. #182
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    My old boss told me that his Baptist pastor gave a sermon after 9/11 where he said that it was time to "ignore Christ" and "not turn the other cheek".

    What the ?

  8. #183
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    The trinity was incorportated by the Catholic Church as a way to please the pagans that they tried to convert all over Europe. This is historical fact. The pagans of Europe, prior to the arrival of Jesus, had already developed the concept of a tri-god. Implementing the concept of the trinity to the Christian faith made for a smoother transition in terms of converting the pagans.
    The word "Trinity" dates from the second century, when there was no "Catholic Church." It is simply the orthodox resolution of the seeming contradiction between the Mishnah and the testimony of the NT, a theology best expressed by Justin Martyr, c. 150.

    Keep in mind there was no legal ins utional church in the Empire until 313.

  9. #184
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    The word "Trinity" dates from the second century, when there was no "Catholic Church." It is simply the orthodox resolution of the seeming contradiction between the Mishnah and the testimony of the NT, a theology best expressed by Justin Martyr, c. 150.

    Keep in mind there was no legal ins utional church in the Empire until 313.
    There is actually a Greek word for Trinity, so it dates back way before that date.

    I don't remember exactly well, but there was a trinity god in the Greek/Roman traditional "religion". I think the god "Janus" was part of that trinity.

    There is also a trinity of gods in Hinduism, which predates Christ, and there are other examples that I can't think of right now. I don't have the time to research that.

  10. #185
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Jehovah is the name of god, regardless of what sect your in.

    It's in the bible, every bible.

    So, no, I'm not Jehovah.

    But, to answer a previous question.
    I belong to no particular sect or christian faith.

    I was raised a "Jehovah's Witness" on one side of the family and Catholic on the other side. There was also a heavy Episcopalian and 7th Day Adventist influence in my family.

    So, while I had a chance to choose from any of them . . . I chose neither of them.
    His name is YHWH. Jehovah is an Anglicized form of a Germanicized form of a Latinized form of the Hebrew term, with the vowels from 'Adonai' mixed in, so that the Jews would never have to utter God's name, since they thought such an utterance was blasphemous.

    And YHWH just means, as best can be expressed in English, "I am that I am." It is this name that Jesus called himself in the Gospel of John, "Before Abraham was born, I AM," which caused the Jews to pick up stones to kill him for blasphemy.

  11. #186
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    There is actually a Greek word for Trinity, so it dates back way before that date.

    I don't remember exactly well, but there was a trinity god in the Greek/Roman traditional "religion". I think the god "Janus" was part of that trinity.

    There is also a trinity of gods in Hinduism, which predates Christ, and there are other examples that I can't think of right now. I don't have the time to research that.
    You're thinking of the Egyptian triad.

  12. #187
    The Sean Marks Dance Duff McCartney's Avatar
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    But they are only relevant in the context of the Hebrew law... which is no longer relevant to us.
    So you're saying the Old Testament is no longer relevant? Why is that?

  13. #188
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    So you're saying the Old Testament is no longer relevant? Why is that?
    The Old Testament is still relevant because of its testimony of salvation history. It contains important narrative theology and prophecy. The Alexandrian school of theology was built around allegorical interpretation of the Old Testmant to teach Christianity.

    However, from the teachings of Jesus Christ, from the Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts, from Paul's teachings on Law versus Grace, and from the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christian theologians understand that the requirements of the Law are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and the Old Covenant has been completed and abrogated in favor of the New Covenant (to which the old one alluded in the first place) which is superior and based upon better promises. Christians are not required to observe the civil and ceremonial aspects of Jewish law, but rather are obligated only to observe its moral aspects, i.e. the Ten Commandments, the Mishnah, and the loving of one's neighbor as oneself, and to abstain from sexual immorality as defined in the Old Testament.

  14. #189
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    His name is YHWH. Jehovah is an Anglicized form of a Germanicized form of a Latinized form of the Hebrew term, with the vowels from 'Adonai' mixed in, so that the Jews would never have to utter God's name, since they thought such an utterance was blasphemous.

    And YHWH just means, as best can be expressed in English, "I am that I am." It is this name that Jesus called himself in the Gospel of John, "Before Abraham was born, I AM," which caused the Jews to pick up stones to kill him for blasphemy.
    You are right.
    It's the Latinized version of YHWH (Yaweh).

    Just like "Jesus" (Iesus) is the Latinized version of his true name, "Yeshua".

  15. #190
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    The Old Testament is still relevant because of its testimony of salvation history. It contains important narrative theology and prophecy. The Alexandrian school of theology was built around allegorical interpretation of the Old Testmant to teach Christianity.

    However, from the teachings of Jesus Christ, from the Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts, from Paul's teachings on Law versus Grace, and from the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christian theologians understand that the requirements of the Law are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and the Old Covenant has been completed and abrogated in favor of the New Covenant (to which the old one alluded in the first place) which is superior and based upon better promises. Christians are not required to observe the civil and ceremonial aspects of Jewish law, but rather are obligated only to observe its moral aspects, i.e. the Ten Commandments, the Mishnah, and the loving of one's neighbor as oneself, and to abstain from sexual immorality as defined in the Old Testament.
    I wholeheartedly agree.

  16. #191
    reppin the 16th letter! Fillmoe's Avatar
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    I guess its better than sleeping with little children.

  17. #192
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    You've NEVER given any text from the NT.

    And, why wait???

    I'm at work too, and I gave you text from the NT. Why can't you do the same??
    I talked about Jesus' conversation with the rich man in Matthew 19.

    I also mentioned the parable of the talents, and the prodigal son.

    You either didn't see them, or ignored them... either way you can't claim my whole argument revolved around using the Old Testament. So your point was moot.

    What's going to happen is that you're going to go to daddy so he can give you the textual evidence you seek. Then you're going to come back her to attempt to prove a point.

    I've done it all on my own.
    I've never professed to be infallible on doctrinal matters or ever suggested it. So yes I always seek counsel.

    Unfortunately for your attempt to deride my position:

    1) My father is in California at the moment.
    2) I've posted on the Trinitarian concept more than once on this forum - way before you were even a member. This is a doctrine implicitly supported by GOD's Word.

    Scriptural texts cited as implicit support for the doctrine of the Trinity
    This is a partial list.

    Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

    John 8:23-24: "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

    John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I Am!'"

    John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    John 12:41: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him." - As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:1 refers to Jesus.

    Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

    Revelation 1:17-18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." This is seen as significant when viewed with Isaiah 44:6: "This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

    and one of my favorites:

    Zachariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."


    This last reference, found in the Old Testament, is a prophecy about Christ's eventual cruxifixion... except it is GOD who is talking. GOD, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three facets of the same en y.

    That's what I hate about people like you. You call yourself a Christian, but all you do is sit down in church and listen to what some random person is telling you. You've never studied the bible. You don't know it. And yet, you try to defend whatever faith you have.

    Good luck with all that.
    Hate is such as strong word. I would comment, but your comment alone speaks volumes about your mischaracterization of my position.

    And look PeeWee.... I don't want to 'bicker' any more, frankly I'm sorry if I've offended you.

    My central message: "don't judge many by the actions of the few" should still stand.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 11-09-2007 at 03:20 PM.

  18. #193
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    You know what.....its all BS......I do NOT care about religions or church doctrines.....that is why I chose not to to join a particular church today......everyone gets caught up in the religion which is man made, and which is completly sinful.....I just know one thing....Im saved, believe that jesus is my lord an savior and that is it. PERIOD.

    Go Spurs Go.

  19. #194
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    You know what.....its all BS......I do NOT care about religions or church doctrines.....that is why I chose not to to join a particular church today......everyone gets caught up in the religion which is man made, and which is completly sinful.....I just know one thing....Im saved, believe that jesus is my lord an savior and that is it. PERIOD.

    Go Spurs Go.
    But who is this Jesus whom you call your lord and savior? I mean, one could claim that he is lord because his great moral teachings are worth following, and savior becaused he has delivered his followers from erroneous thinking.

  20. #195
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    But who is this Jesus whom you call your lord and savior? I mean, one could claim that he is lord because his great moral teachings are worth following, and savior becaused he has delivered his followers from erroneous thinking.

    Its called faith....you have to just believe.....If Im wrong....no harm done, if not, that could mean my soul. Everyone knows about Jesus....yet, its that persons choice to accept him or not. Free will my friend.

  21. #196
    Believe. Ronaldo McDonald's Avatar
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    (marys and josephs house)

    Mary walks in looking a bit heavy...
    Joseph gives her a curious stare... he then inquires about her weight.
    Mary stammers as she shuffles through her list of excuses, when suddenly she's struck with an ingenious idea...

    and the rest is history...
    I'm convinced there are letters written somehwhere by the guy who got mary pregnant.
    mary probably kept a diary but threw it in the fire one night when she caught Joseph looking through her .

    christianity is one big ing cover up

  22. #197
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Its called faith....you have to just believe.....If Im wrong....no harm done, if not, that could mean my soul. Everyone knows about Jesus....yet, its that persons choice to accept him or not. Free will my friend.
    Faith? Faith in what? What do you believe?

    Do you have faith that Jesus will make you materially wealthy?

    Do you have faith simply that his moral teachings are worth following?

    Do you have faith that Jesus (PBUH) was a great prophet born of the Virgin Mary, and that he will return at the end times to judge all non-Muslims?

    Do you believe that Jesus is the first of Jehovah's spirit children and that if you obey his teachings, you will become the god of your own planet?

    Do you believe that Jesus shows us that the material world is an illusion and that by receiving that knowledge, you are saved from that illusion?

    Do you believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael, the first and greatest of God's creation?

    Do you believe that Jesus was primarily a social reformer who was crucified because he espoused liberal values?

    What does "Lord" mean? Does it mean he rules or has dominion over something? Over what? Is he a member of British Parliament? Is he one of the lords a-leaping from the 12 Days of Christmas? What does "Savior" mean? Did he save you from spending too much on car insurance? Did he save you into some kind of special knowledge, or gnosis? Did he save you from unethical or illiberal thinking?

  23. #198
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    (marys and josephs house)

    Mary walks in looking a bit heavy...
    Joseph gives her a curious stare... he then inquires about her weight.
    Mary stammers as she shuffles through her list of excuses, when suddenly she's struck with an ingenious idea...

    and the rest is history...
    I'm convinced there are letters written somehwhere by the guy who got mary pregnant.
    mary probably kept a diary but threw it in the fire one night when she caught Joseph looking through her .

    christianity is one big ing cover up
    Yes, that makes perfect sense. A 13-year-old uneducated Jewish girl tricked everybody in the eastern Mediterranean.

  24. #199
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Faith? Faith in what? What do you believe?

    Do you have faith that Jesus will make you materially wealthy?

    Do you have faith simply that his moral teachings are worth following?

    Do you have faith that Jesus (PBUH) was a great prophet born of the Virgin Mary, and that he will return at the end times to judge all non-Muslims?

    Do you believe that Jesus is the first of Jehovah's spirit children and that if you obey his teachings, you will become the god of your own planet?

    Do you believe that Jesus shows us that the material world is an illusion and that by receiving that knowledge, you are saved from that illusion?

    Do you believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael, the first and greatest of God's creation?

    Do you believe that Jesus was primarily a social reformer who was crucified because he espoused liberal values?

    What does "Lord" mean? Does it mean he rules or has dominion over something? Over what? Is he a member of British Parliament? Is he one of the lords a-leaping from the 12 Days of Christmas? What does "Savior" mean? Did he save you from spending too much on car insurance? Did he save you into some kind of special knowledge, or gnosis? Did he save you from unethical or illiberal thinking?
    @ lords-a-leaping....

    BTW those are good summaries for what several of the major 'religions' say about Jesus.

  25. #200
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    (marys and josephs house)

    Mary walks in looking a bit heavy...
    Joseph gives her a curious stare... he then inquires about her weight.
    Mary stammers as she shuffles through her list of excuses, when suddenly she's struck with an ingenious idea...

    and the rest is history...
    I'm convinced there are letters written somehwhere by the guy who got mary pregnant.
    mary probably kept a diary but threw it in the fire one night when she caught Joseph looking through her .

    christianity is one big ing cover up

    Thanks for clearing it up....

    I can't believe I was duped my entire lifetime....

    Belief in GOD is about faith. But since I wouldn't be very successful proving His existence to you or any other doubter with concrete evidence you'll just have to rely on some of my own life changing experiences. Coincidence alone cannot explain these events - especially when given the context. At one point or another these events revealed GOD's purpose for my life and allowed me to reflect about the wonders of His Love, Grace, protection, and provision.

    I firmly believe it was GOD that saved me from a car accident in Mexico when I was 7 - one where 4 people lost their lives (precisely on a day I was complaining about my height. Had I been 2 inches taller my head would have been severed off.)

    It was HE who intervened and prevented some real-estate scammer from trying to steal our church property (my father ran into the real owner of the property and the rest is history, at ACE Hardware no less... my dad never, ever shopped there). He recalls that he just had a sudden impulse to go there looking for a hammer.

    It was GOD who protected my father when he was held up by a random car-jacker in El Salvador. A truck traveling in front of my father's vehicle threw a rock through the windshield. It came in so sudden and struck the gunman on the head rendering him unconscious. My dad simply drove the assailant to the police station.

    It was GOD who placed the sudden schedule conflict that kept me out of my planned trip to the World Trade Center observation deck on September 11th, 2001 (looking at my planner still gives me the chills).

    It was GOD that provided for our family of five when my father's meager salary could only go so far. We rarely got sick. Our car seldom broke down. We never went hungry. All of us (my two siblings and I), obtained a college degree on full ride scholarships. GOD gave my parents the wisdom of proper stewardship. As a family we were obedient on the question of hes, and He was always more than faithful (keeping His promises according to Malachi 3). While it could be said that our lifestyle choices had much to do with this 'feat', we encountered way too many families who earned 3 or 4 times more than my father but always struggled to remain financially afloat. Really it was GOD who provided.

    This again is all tangible. But it touched my life at all the right moments to reveal that GOD has always been there for us.... as promised.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 11-09-2007 at 08:13 PM.

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