Do people honestly think that Manu is the MVP of this team?

[ArgSpursFan.]

yeah manu won them all by himself

I hope people remember how Manu shuted down Prince in the 2005 NBA Finals.
Anyone knows what did Prince averaged vs the Spurs in 05?
I'm not sure 100% but it was way below his average stats for sure.

[timvp]

Is Manu the MVP of this team?

Depends on the criteria. If were talking about the Finals MVP style voting, I'd say Manu would have a good shot. He's been spectacular for most of the season. He has surpassed any regular season expectations anyone could have had for him coming into this year.

Now is he the most important player to the success of the team, I'd have to say no. TD is the player that has the most responsibilities on this team. Night in and night out, he has to carry more of the load than anyone else. Ginobili can decide not to rebound one game and no one would notice. Parker can decide not to push the break and the Spurs can still survive. But if Duncan doesn't score on the low block, make the right passes out of double teams, defend his man, defend other players driving to the lane, pull down rebounds, etc. ... then it's obvious that Duncan had a bad game and everyone can call him out as the Spurs likely lose.

Ginobili has played his role about as well as humanly possible but his role isn't as large as Duncan's role. Since Ginobili has few responsibilities on the defensive end of the court and no real set responsibilities offensively other than "be Manu", he's pretty free to freelance and be as good as he wants to be. Lately in games, he has yawned his way through the first three quarters and then turns it on at the end. While that works for him because of his role on the team, if Duncan was asleep at the wheel for a large stretch of a game he'd be roasted by every Spurs fan in existence.

I also don't buy the argument that the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs with Manu. The Spurs have struggled this year but it's largely because they are coming off of a championship and they already know they are good. If you took out Manu and replaced him with an average shooting guard and the rest of the team played hard all season, the Spurs would likely have an even better record than they do now. Believe me, if this Spurs team was playing as hard as possible during the regular season, they'd win 60+ games.

Would the Spurs make the playoff if you took Duncan away and gave the Spurs an average bigman? I doubt it, especially this season. Say you replace Duncan with someone like Chris Kaman. They'd have to play at 100% effort and chances are they'd still finish out of the playoffs.

Anyways, I don't really care about regular season play. Ginobili has had a great season so far but 2007-08 will be remembered for what happens in the playoffs. For example in '05-06, one could argue that Parker had a similarly successful season. He helped lead the Spurs to 63 wins even with Duncan hobbled with plantar fasciitis and Ginobili missing 20+ games. Parker shot 55% for the season and led the Spurs in scoring. But come playoff time, the Spurs got bounced by the Mavericks and the 05-06 season is looked upon as a huge failure.

For this to truly go down as a breakout year for Manu, the Spurs need to win the championship. With the way Manu's playing currently, he could easily have the best run of his playoff career. As long as he stays healthy, I see no reason why he can't explode in the playoffs and have a legendary run. He could then cement his superstar status in the league.

Bottomline for me is while Manu has had a fantastic season, TD is still the most important player in terms of the team's success. And besides, the true test begins in about three weeks.

[ShoogarBear]

But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him (not from you Manumanic, but others).

[DAF86]

I'm around the Spurs enough to realize that Manu's not a good one-on-one defender. Pop and Manu realize that too.

i've actually heard pop in a lot of interviews saying that manu is a great defender that's why i'm so surprised that some spurs fans think that manu is a bad defender

[ducks]

great post timvp
that should be a blog topic

[timvp]

i have been watching manu since he was 18 years old through all of his career and specialists all around the world've always said that manu is a great defender but i don't need nobody to tell me that either. i can realize by myself that he's a great defender.
And i'm not BS if you read all my posts in this thread you could tell (i even said that he's not the MVP). manu has shortcomings but defense is definitly not one of them.

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.

Today, Ginobili overall would be rated as a good defender. However, in one-on-one matchups, he's not that good. Help defensive wise, he's very good. The Spurs know this and set their defense to allow Ginobili's strengths on defense to shine.

But let's not pretend that Ginobili doesn't get the easiest possible matchups on a nightly basis. Bowen guards the best perimeter offensive player. Parker guards the second best perimeter offensive player. Whoever is left is who Ginobili guards. The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

If you want to think that Ginobili has been the Argentine Satch Sanders since the age of 18, I guess there isn't much to be done to convince you.

[DAF86]

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.

Today, Ginobili overall would be rated as a good defender. However, in one-on-one matchups, he's not that good. Help defensive wise, he's very good. The Spurs know this and set their defense to allow Ginobili's strengths on defense to shine.

But let's not pretend that Ginobili doesn't get the easiest possible matchups on a nightly basis. Bowen guards the best perimeter offensive player. Parker guards the second best perimeter offensive player. Whoever is left is who Ginobili guards. The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

If you want to think that Ginobili has been the Argentine Satch Sanders since the age of 18, I guess there isn't much to be done to convince you.

are you calling me a liar? all the argies that have watched manu's entire career please back me up on this one. and those who know how to post a link please i need the interview between pop and leo montero in the preseason of 2003-04 (the season after manu's rookie season) where pop tells leo that manu is a great defender. thankyou

[Deimosfobos]

I don't believe Manu has been the MVP. I do think, however, that this year BOTH Tim and Manu have been carrying this team. I'm not ready to say Manu is more valuable than Tim, but I don't feel too outraged at people suggesting it. Manu has certainly made a case for himself.



Come on Shoog... you know better than to say this? I mean, name another player that would bring what Manu brings, in the same amount of minutes, who wouldn't take a hit if he was required to come off the bench... just name one? By the way, given that we are talking about the NBA, and salary is an issue, you should also keep the list down to those in Manu's salary range. Same case scenario with Parker.



Have you even seen a game this season??

Tim Duncan is the best player on the Spurs and the foundation of its success, but I don't view him as the leader of the Spurs. First off, if anyone is the leader of the Spurs, it's Pop. If you were to name a player, it's Manu. That's part of his value, his leadership, his selflessness, his sacrifice, his at ude.

These quotes represent my personal opinion.

Also, anyone who says Ginobilli would be ez to remplace... can go jump off a window, since your brain already did.

[timvp]

are you calling me a liar? all the argies that have watched manu's entire career please back me up on this one. and those who know how to post a link please i need the interview between pop and leo montero in the preseason of 2004 (the season after manu's rookie season) where pop tells leo that manu is a great defender. thankyou

Was Ginobili 18 in 2004? I'm not calling you a liar but if you think Ginobili has been a great defender since he was 18 as you claimed, you are wrong.

[DAF86]

Was Ginobili 18 in 2004? I'm not calling you a liar but if you think Ginobili has been a great defender since he was 18 as you claimed, you are wrong.

did you watch ginobili at 18 years old?

[timvp]

did you watch ginobili at 18 years old?

I've watched tapes of his younger days, yes. Did you figure out where Ginobili was playing when he was 18?

[hitmanyr2k]

The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

What's the point of saying Ginobili guarded Pierce? Pierce is a freakin small forward with a big body lol. Ginobili SHOULDN'T be able to guard Pierce...especially on the block. No guard can handle Pierce in the post...duh Doesn't make him a bad defender.

And also what you say about Parker doesn't make sense. Parker sure as wouldn't be on Ray Allen even if Bowen were in that first game. He would have been on Rondo. What sense does it make to put Parker on Ray Allen? Who's going to guard Rondo? Finley?!?

[DAF86]

I've watched tapes of his younger days, yes. Did you figure out where Ginobili was playing when he was 18?

i know the agrie league isn't the NBA (even though we're still Olympic champions) but he was playing there then and he was always consider a great defender. in europe too

[timvp]

What's the point of saying Ginobili guarded Pierce? Pierce is a freakin small forward with a big body lol. Ginobili SHOULDN'T be able to guard Pierce...especially on the block. No guard can handle Pierce in the post...duh Doesn't make him a bad defender.

Pierce was scoring off jumpers.

And also what you say about Parker doesn't make sense. Parker sure as wouldn't be on Ray Allen even if Bowen were in that first game. He would have been on Rondo. What sense does it make to put Parker on Ray Allen? Who's going to guard Rondo? Finley?!?

If the Spurs play the Celtics again and the Spurs have Parker, Ginobili and Bowen on the floor, Bowen will guard Pierce, Parker will guard Allen and Ginobili will guard Rondo/Cassell/House/Posey.

[BonnerDynasty]

Who gives a . He comes up with mega-clutch defensive plays in the important games.

Great asset on the defensive side no doubtttttt.

[timvp]

i know the agrie league isn't the NBA (even though we're still Olympic champions) but he was playing there then and he was always consider a great defender. in europe too

Okay, believe what you want. I'm not going to take an Argie to bat over Manu. Just know that even Manu himself admitted to improving his defense after the Spurs told him he couldn't play in the NBA if he didn't defend.

But yeah, Manu is the greatest with no perceivable weakness.

[timvp]

ROFL. It has spilled over into this thread ...

[ArgSpursFan.]

Ginobili is a hustler,not the greatest one on one,but above average in that area.
And his BBIQ helps him read Offensive plays in order to get steals in the Difensive end.(court vision)

[JamStone]

I can't believe...

[DAF86]

Okay, believe what you want. I'm not going to take an Argie to bat over Manu. Just know that even Manu himself admitted to improving his defense after the Spurs told him he couldn't play in the NBA if he didn't defend.

But yeah, Manu is the greatest with no perceivable weakness.

don't change my words that's very inmature of your part.
i never said manu is the best defender ever and i'm not BS towards manu (at least not on this subject ) earlier in this post i even said that manu isn't the MVP of this team. but you can't tell me that manu is a bad defender.
i don't know how to post a link but please google "manu, defense and John hollinger or Mark Stein or Henry Abbott or any media guy you want and look what they say. or even better look what pop has said about manu's defense.

[hitmanyr2k]

Pierce was scoring off jumpers.

And? Isn't he supposed to hit jumpers? It just doesn't make sense that you would use Ginobili guarding a star SF as an example that he can't play good one on one defense.

If the Spurs play the Celtics again and the Spurs have Parker, Ginobili and Bowen on the floor, Bowen will guard Pierce, Parker will guard Allen and Ginobili will guard Rondo/Cassell/House/Posey.

So the same Rondo who roasted Tony Parker is supposed to be some easy assignment? That doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure you'll see Ginobili on Ray Allen and Parker on Rondo. No way in they're going to put Ginobili on some speed demon.

[timvp]

but you can't tell me that manu is a bad defender.

No one has told you that in this thread.

[E20]

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                                 GlassGiant.com

[ArgSpursFan.]

is that walter Herrmann???
He looks just like Walter though

[DAF86]

I can't believe...

what's Oberto doing in that commercial?