Pop can't coach backup point guards

[timvp]

I'll agree with defend, rebound, handle the ball against the press. Early on he got to the free throw line but that fell off. Problem is that he can't do much as a PG in the half court. Without Manu only Parker is breaking down the defense and creating shots. Not even Duncan, who most teams have played man up without doubling now, is being too effective creating looks for others. So Pop went to Mason and it hasn't worked but Hill isn't a solution either. Only hope is an effective Manu and even better an effective Manu and Duncan. You can't afford Hill as your PG without someone else on the floor creating.

In his last ~20 games as the backup, he was still getting to the line about 3.5 times per 40 minutes. That's less than his numbers earlier in the year but still a very healthy mark. By far the best on the team outside of the Big Three.

I agree that Hill was becoming very passive at the end of his stint at point guard but I saw enough glimpses earlier to believe that he could eventually figure it out. And if you remember correctly, Hill started playing passive once Ginobili returned from injury. Prior to that he was doing a very good job of breaking down defenses off of pick-and-rolls and in half break situations.

It's when he started trying to fit in that he ran into problems. There wasn't much help next to him during that string of 20+ point games.

[picnroll]

I just don't see it. Maybe in the future but I don't see change of speed or direction, quick first step, finishing at the basket, pull up J, drawing a second defender. He's weak running the P&R. Maybe someday, but not today

[timvp]

I just don't see it. Maybe in the future but I don't see change of speed or direction, quick first step, finishing at the basket, pull up J, drawing a second defender. He's weak running the P&R. Maybe someday, but not today

I coulda sworn you were high on Hill just a few months ago.





Edit to add:

I think Chalmers should make it in the league as a solid back up PG on a good team or a starting PG on a bad team. Hill however should make it as a starting PG on good team. Spurs got s steal, right Mr Body?

Hill looks incredibly confident. He's directing the team as a PG like he's a seasoned vet. Spurs struck late round gold number 3.

Hill is fully capable of being a PG/SG in a three man rotation particularly as he has a frame to get a heckuva lot stronger. Ultimately he can easily get 30 minutes in a Spurs rotation and is immeasurable versatility as a defender. Spurs made a smart choice and right now or soon fans would be cursing the FO if theey'd let Hill slip and he was picked by Boston or LA as was rumored. Right now potential wise Hill leads the pack of available players at their draft position.

Seems to me someone mentioned it before but body-wise, athleticism, skills potential he reminds me of Fat Lever and that ain't bad.

Has Hill really dropped that much in your opinion in a few months? From future starting stud comparable to TP and Manu ... to a player who doesn't even deserve a chance as the backup point guard?

IMO, you shot a little high in your initial praise and are shooting low in your current pessimism. The whole season, I've seen Hill as a solid point guard prospect who can eventually become one of the best backup points in the league. But considering that he's coming from a low level of basketball and is changing position, there were rough patches he was going to have to cross. I was hoping Pop would be patient ... but that didn't happen.

Hill won't become an All-Star but as a point guard, the fact that he has elite defensive potential, can handle the rock, has the tools to develop into a shooter and has enough athleticism to finish around the basket tells me it's way too early to give up on him. He doesn't have great vision but he makes quick, smart passes most of the time.

And really, Hill's problems throughout the season have almost all dealt with passiveness and not a lack of talent. The only way to get that passiveness out of his game is through experience so he can find his niche again. When he was forced into a niche earlier in the season, he did very well ... as you noted.

[Dario]

This mason and hill debate reminds me of some very old terrence hill and bud spencer movie, where they would drive that gold cadilac.
/Offtopic

[picnroll]

I coulda sworn you were high on Hill just a few months ago.

I still have hopes for Hill. He can be solid simply by improving his shooting with the tools he has now if he's paired on the floor with a Parker or Manu and a healthy Duncan who can create for him and others. He cannot be a PG if somebody, preferably two oher people aren't on the floor creating easy shots or scoring themselves at a high clip.

He has disappointed me in his ability to create for others which is bottom 10 percentile for PGs or SGs for that matter imo. He can improve in that area maybe but he needs to become more deceptive handling the ball to break down the defense, become a better shooter and become a uva lot better around the basket. Right now he's a block magnet.

[Manufan909]

I guess picknroll agrees with me, but to timvp, do you believe Hill will go back to backup PG once Manu is back? No need for Mason to be taking shots from both of the Spurs top guards.

[polandprzem]

I don't know why but this thread is pissing me off :

[Manufan909]

I don't know why but this thread is pissing me off :

Well let's figure this out. Is it 1) You hate anyone bagging on the almighty Pop? 2) Anything reminding you that Mason is now the starting SG AND the backup PG? 3) I got nothing. If it's neither of the first two, then you're on your own.

[polandprzem]

That's number 3

I'm on my own

[Manufan909]

Oh I have another one, is it cuz JV isn't backing Tony up? And I know I'm reaching with this one. But I'm so bored I want to find out.

[Obstructed_View]

If Pop wants a vet running backup point, and he doesn't want to go to Vaughn, then he needs to use Udoka. At this point he's going to have Parker so worn out by the playoffs that it won't matter if Duncan and Manu are 100 percent.

[WalterBenitez]

Watching George Hill come in and play dominant defense against the Suns was great to see. But the cir stances had me pissed at Pop. If the Steve Nash wouldn't have gotten hot, Hill was headed to a DNP-CD. Pop looks like he's on the road to, once again, destroying the confidence and the effectiveness of the team's backup point guard.

I understand wanting to give Mason the ball more often. I agree that he needs more touches than he's gotten in the previous six weeks. But that is doable with him at the shooting guard position. There's no reason to play him at point to get him touches. Just let Mason run pick-and-rolls in the half court set ... especially since that's what he ends up doing when he plays point.

With Mason at point, Pop is setting it up so that Hill will be out of the rotation once Ginobili returns. I just don't agree with that. Hill brings too much to the table. Sure he has some warts but an athlete who can rebound, concentrate on defense and play unselfish basketball should fit perfectly into the system of Spurs Basketball.

Basically, the only two point guards to survive Pop's point guard treatment over the years have been AJ and Parker. Both players survived because they were supremely confident in their own abilities. Every other point guard was murdered by Pop.

Kerr came in as a high profile reserve point guard fresh off of three championships and he was utterly useless in his first stint under Pop. Antonio Daniels wilted under Pop before going on to become one of the best backup point guards of the last decade. Speedy Claxton is remembered for his Game 6 against the Nets performance but he had many downs as ups in his Spurs career.

Terry Porter came to the Spurs as a premier backup point guard and instantly turned into a liability. Charlie Ward, Nick Van Exel and Damon Stoudamire came to the Spurs playing decent basketball but Pop swiftly ended their careers. Last year with Stoudamire was amazing. After playing well and helping out the first few games, Pop told Stoudamire to stop passing so much and start shooting more. The result? Pop benched Stoudamire for becoming a chucker.

Then there's the lovable Beno Udrih. No doubt he's not the easiest player to root for but he was talented and had more than enough ability to be a backup point guard. But Pop chewed him up and spit him out like all the others.

Now it looks like Hill is about to go down that road. Pop has already taken away his ballhandling responsibilities. His minutes are about to evaporate. Then comes the part where Pop is surprised when the backup point guard doesn't play with supreme confidence when he suddenly finds himself back in the mix. And then the story ends with the backup point guard getting traded for pennies on the dollar as the Spurs welcome in the next poor sap who's about to get eaten alive by Pop's inability to coach backup point guards.

I think the main problem is Pop doesn't know what he wants from a backup point. He'll bench a backup point for playing bad defense but he'll also bench a backup point for playing good defense but not being aggressive enough offensively. It's like he doesn't realize that all backup point guards have some sort of flaws. That's why they are backup point guards.

This latest giving up on Hill just doesn't make much sense. When it comes down to it, the move will basically be taking any minutes Hill would get and give them to Finley.

Good luck to Hill and hopefully he can persevere and keep the job the next time he's given the chance.

/rant

Interesting, you got a point right here, short guess, probably POP measure subs with the TP's standards which is obvious so high for everyone.

In the other hand, running this team with so many plays to remember arent easy.

I agree that giving minutes to Hill will develop him or send him out, but we should let him tests his skills.

[WalterBenitez]

According to NBA.com stats

TP is 6.8 (APG) .86 (SPG) 2.61 (TO) 21.4 (PPG) in 34.1 (MPG)
GH is 2.0 (APG) .58 (SPG) 1.04 (TO) 6.2 (PPG) in 17.7 (MPG)

I will go against my own word saying that 17.7 MPG sounds like POP is developing Hill, some other maths....

TP is 6.8 APG in 34.1 MPG and GH is 2.0 in 17.7
TP is .86 SPG and 2.61 TO and GH is .58 and 1.04

Looks like POP is managing GH well nto good enough

[Blackjack]

In his first 15 games with the Spurs, NVE shot 46.3% from the field and was averaging 6.7 points in 16 minutes per game. The Spurs were 12-3 and all the coaches could talk about was how NVE was a better defender and a better teammate than they could have imagined. NVE was at cult hero status amongst Spurs fans.

That's better than I remembered, but it was pretty much fool's gold, offensively, with the condition of his elbow. I do remember the coaching staff going out of their way to praise his at ude and the effort he was putting forth on the defensive-end, though.

Ward started off really well. First eight games, he shot 45.5% from the field. On his first road trip with the team, he hit 9-of-13 three-pointers. By the end of the road trip, Pop was having him play in fourth quarters over Tony Parker. The most memorable of which was that Pistons game where Ward almost single-handedly brought the Spurs back to win the game.

After that game, there was even some articles questioning whether there was a quarterback controversy in San Antonio.

I had high hopes for Ward when he came to S.A., he seemed to be exactly what the Spurs needed in a backup-point (knockdown 3-point shooting, capable defender, and a competent point overall) but Pop definitely seemed -bent on not letting that happen. His shooting to start his Spurs stint was better than I remembered, but I definitely remembered him getting banished to the bench and not given the opportunity to play through mistakes.

The fact that he had some success to start his Spurs stint, when Pop allowed for him to acclimate before "coacing him up", and then went into the tank after being "coached-up", definitely lends credence to your theory.

I do remember that Detroit game and the "quarterback controversy" articles, now that you mention it.

Stoudamire was playing pretty darn well until Pop gave him the speech about shooting more and passing less ... and then yanked him in and out for shooting too much. At that point Stoudamire went from being an asset to being perhaps the worst player in the NBA.

Everyone remembers how Pop's back up point guards ultimately flame out but their good starts are forgotten.

I don't disagree with you on how the Stoudamire experiment went, but my hopes were never that high considering his lack of size, age, and the fact that he was aquired mid-season.(Point-guard's hard enough. Learning how to play it for L.B. or Pop mid-season? You'd have a better chance at finding a solution to the country's economic situation.)

Pop has a good track record of coaching young players and bench players at every position, except backup point guards.

I think Pop does a good job of finding players that's strength's mesh with team needs, but not necessarily developing offensive players. I wasn't really reffering to young players, either. (But I wouldn't give him too much credit for a 26yr.old pro in Manu or the Jack's of the world, at least offensively, who have the confidence/swagger to put the ball in the hole whether they're playing in S.A. or on Mars.)

Pop's a counter-puncher with a bend-but-not-break mentality, that while breeds consistency on the defensive-end by playing percentages, it also bleeds into the offensive-end negatively.

It's like any good counter-puncher in boxing.

He'll always be in the fight, but he'll rarely get the knock-out.

Pop's style was plenty successful and completely understandable given the offensive talent surrounding Tim pre-2005, but time's/talent have changed, which is something even Pop has come to terms with.

I think it really started to hit him in '04 with Hedo and '05 with Barry, that his reigns were becoming more of a detriment on the offense than a governor, thus, the noticeable change in rhetoric, "Shoot the damn ball." But until recently, with the likes of a Bonner, has his rhetoric and his actions actually coincided.

You can't de-program and remove hesitance (maybe the worst thing to have offensively) over night, or with rhetoric alone, but at least Pop seems to be making some progress in that area.

The one thing that I've always begrudgedly admired about P. Jackson, is his use of the triangle and willingness to let his team play through mistakes. Not bailing his team out with a timeout, when it seems all is going to .

The triangle provides a more consistent and predictable offense, as to where every offensive player's shots are going to come from, allowing for better continuity and rhythm,(especially for role-players) and the not getting bailed-out breeds confidence and pays dividends down the road, when the games really count. Yes, he's had plenty of talent to work with over the years, but his teams are usually among the most consistent offenses, and among the most balanced both offensively and defensively, year-in and year-out.

I don't expect Pop to start picking Phil's brain (unless we're talking, literally) but he could definitely learn a thig or two from him offensively.

Pop's come a of a long way, especially x's and o's-wise over the years, but he's still got a little ways to go.

[Yuixafun]

good points on pops coaching - and nice to remind people even at an advanced age you have opportunity to grow..

[Yogurt210]

That's better than I remembered, but it was pretty much fool's gold, offensively, with the condition of his elbow. I do remember the coaching staff going out of their way to praise his at ude and the effort he was putting forth on the defensive-end, though.



I had high hopes for Ward when he came to S.A., he seemed to be exactly what the Spurs needed in a backup-point (knockdown 3-point shooting, capable defender, and a competent point overall) but Pop definitely seemed -bent on not letting that happen. His shooting to start his Spurs stint was better than I remembered, but I definitely remembered him getting banished to the bench and not given the opportunity to play through mistakes.

The fact that he had some success to start his Spurs stint, when Pop allowed for him to acclimate before "coacing him up", and then went into the tank after being "coached-up", definitely lends credence to your theory.

I do remember that Detroit game and the "quarterback controversy" articles, now that you mention it.



I don't disagree with you on how the Stoudamire experiment went, but my hopes were never that high considering his lack of size, age, and the fact that he was aquired mid-season.(Point-guard's hard enough. Learning how to play it for L.B. or Pop mid-season? You'd have a better chance at finding a solution to the country's economic situation.)



I think Pop does a good job of finding players that's strength's mesh with team needs, but not necessarily developing offensive players. I wasn't really reffering to young players, either. (But I wouldn't give him too much credit for a 26yr.old pro in Manu or the Jack's of the world, at least offensively, who have the confidence/swagger to put the ball in the hole whether they're playing in S.A. or on Mars.)

Pop's a counter-puncher with a bend-but-not-break mentality, that while breeds consistency on the defensive-end by playing percentages, it also bleeds into the offensive-end negatively.

It's like any good counter-puncher in boxing.

He'll always be in the fight, but he'll rarely get the knock-out.

Pop's style was plenty successful and completely understandable given the offensive talent surrounding Tim pre-2005, but time's/talent have changed, which is something even Pop has come to terms with.

I think it really started to hit him in '04 with Hedo and '05 with Barry, that his reigns were becoming more of a detriment on the offense than a governor, thus, the noticeable change in rhetoric, "Shoot the damn ball." But until recently, with the likes of a Bonner, has his rhetoric and his actions actually coincided.

You can't de-program and remove hesitance (maybe the worst thing to have offensively) over night, or with rhetoric alone, but at least Pop seems to be making some progress in that area.

The one thing that I've always begrudgedly admired about P. Jackson, is his use of the triangle and willingness to let his team play through mistakes. Not bailing his team out with a timeout, when it seems all is going to .

The triangle provides a more consistent and predictable offense, as to where every offensive player's shots are going to come from, allowing for better continuity and rhythm,(especially for role-players) and the not getting bailed-out breeds confidence and pays dividends down the road, when the games really count. Yes, he's had plenty of talent to work with over the years, but his teams are usually among the most consistent offenses, and among the most balanced both offensively and defensively, year-in and year-out.

I don't expect Pop to start picking Phil's brain (unless we're talking, literally) but he could definitely learn a thig or two from him offensively.

Pop's come a of a long way, especially x's and o's-wise over the years, but he's still got a little ways to go.

Thank you. I agree. People on here think Pop's is flawless,just because of past success. Pop's has always had a great young team to coach with exceptional abilities. But let's see how he does with older spurs who's best days are behind them. Let's see how Pop's can adapt.

[ata]

Disagree. Pop has gotten good play out of a number of young players. He won a championship in 2003 with basically two rookies at shooting guard (SJax and Manu) plus Bowen and Claxton only had a few years of NBA experience. He found Malik Rose and turned him into a very rich basketball player. When given a quality young player who isn't a backup point guard, Pop has usually done a good job.

Almost every fan of every team in the NBA says that their coach isn't fair to young players. I actually think Pop is one of the best coaches in the league at coaching young players. Look at this year for another example. Mason is in his first full year of playing in the NBA and Pop had him playing well ... until he put him at backup point guard.

C'mon - I am talking about youth, not NBA milage.
SJax was in his 3rd season, age 25
Manu, already international star, age 26
Mason, 5th season, age 29
Neither is(was) young and/or inexperienced - if player is not mentally stabil at 25, then there is good chance he never will be

There always is bunch of bench players with fat contracts.

On the other hand, we've seen a lot of players playing good ball, until Pop made some odd decisions

[Spurs Brazil]

We just can add one more to the list

Roger Mason Jr

He was very good before this stupid thing and now he looks like Hedo Part II

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Spurs are still interested in Spanoulis. They have been scouting him again and also Pablo Prigioni.

[Spurs Brazil]

Spurs are still interested in Spanoulis. They have been scouting him again and also Prigioni.

Stop with this

[SenorSpur]

The mere fact that Pop is now playing JV as backup point is an indication that that Mason experiment isn't working out.

[benefactor]

The depressing truth of this thread becomes more and more real with every game.

[TJastal]

I think the spurs problems as a whole are

1. Popovich's constant tinkering with the lineups / subs ution patterns .. its kind of obvious the team is confused and out of sync at at time when these types of things should be set in stone. Especially poor George Hill who probably has no idea what Popovich wants him to do. This segways into the second point....

2. George Hill getting spotty minutes by Popovich which have dimished throughout the year. Why was he drafted #1 if he's not going to get any consistent minutes?? If you look at Mario Chalmers (who was picked in the 2nd round no less) and he's still the starting PG for the Heat and a has become a major contributor. Hill and Chalmers are very similar talent-wise, only difference being Hill is a better slasher and man to man defender/shotblocker, Chalmers a better shooter and ballhawk/pickpocket. Both deserve to be playing consistent minutes, yet only one is.

3. It's become crystal clear to me that the spurs still really need a guy who can guard the Kobe's, Lebron's, Durant's of the league, a lockdown wing defender. Bruce Bowen used to be that guy, even up to a few years ago, but it seems he doesn't have the quickness anymore. That is why I lobbied hard for the spurs to go hard after Michael Pietrus this past off-season, who I think would have been the guy to fill that role.

They picked up Roger Mason Jr instead, who I've had to admit has done very well with the team as a spot up clutch 3pt shooter, but more and more its becoming obvious to me that Pietrus would have given the spurs more of what they really needed. They already had a ton of guys that can shoot and hit the 3, while RMJ is excellent at that, its not what was needed most.

And what they needed most IMO was a versatile lockdown defender guy who for instance would have harrassed Kevin Durant into a having a few more misses in last night's game, so instead of 12-19 he goes 9-19. If that happens, the Spurs would have won that game by 5 in that example. RMJ is a decent defender himself, but he lacks the versatility to guard the larger guards of the league, which Pietrus does on a nightly basis. The spurs have a lock down defender in Hill for the smaller guards, but no answer for guys like Durant, and that was really obvious in last night's game.

4. Besides Pietrus' versatility on defense, he also runs the floor very well and finishes on the fast break fairly well. This seems to me to be another area I think the spurs a shaky. Don't get me wrong, Parker IS the best 1 man fast break in the league.. but it would be nice to have a guy trailing Parker that can elevate and finish at the rim. He also gives Parker (and the spurs) a guy in the half court set that can make cuts and go backdoor to the rim and finish top shelf with a lob pass. Not to mention he can drain the 3 pretty well (not quite as good as RMJ but pretty close).

I've watched Pietrus do all these things in an Orlando Magic uniform this year, and it just kills me that the spurs never really considered him on their free agent radar this past off season. And while he made alot of mistakes adjusting early in the year (especially with many unnecessary fouls) he has learned from his mistakes. The knock on him in the past was he had low bball IQ, and whilst that used to be true, all indications are that he is getting the NBA game down now, and becoming a major contributor to a championship caliber team in Orlando. This kind of reminds me of Turkoglu.. it seems the Euro's need a little more time to adjust to the NBA game, but once they do they seem to flourish.. I bet the spurs wish they kept their hands on Turkoglu now instead of letting him slip thru the fingers.. That guy is an amazing player indeed, and an amazing bargain by NBA salary standards.

The only knock on Pietrus has been his inability to stay healthy, which I think was due in part to his recklessness and abandon going to the rim in year's past causing him to take many nasty spills. With his maturity and IQ improving each game, his DNP's will lessen as he becomes a smarter player out there.

I'm sure there are more things I could nit-pick, but those 4 are the major things wrong with the spurs right now, in summary: Pop's inconsistent lineups (and subs utions but I won't get into that and make this post any longer), Pop's handling of George Hill, the lack of a lockdown defender for the big guards that are consistently torching the spurs, and the lack of a wing who can finish at the rim and run the fast break, simply put they have too many 3pt shooting marksman and not enough creators / slashers / finishers.

[SenorSpur]

3. It's become crystal clear to me that the spurs still really need a guy who can guard the Kobe's, Lebron's, Durant's of the league, a lockdown wing defender. Bruce Bowen used to be that guy, even up to a few years ago, but it seems he doesn't have the quickness anymore. That is why I lobbied hard for the spurs to go hard after Michael Pietrus this past off-season, who I think would have been the guy to fill that role.

And what they needed most IMO was a versatile lockdown defender guy who for instance would have harrassed Kevin Durant into a having a few more misses in last night's game, so instead of 12-19 he goes 9-19. If that happens, the Spurs would have won that game by 5 in that example. RMJ is a decent defender himself, but he lacks the versatility to guard the larger guards of the league, which Pietrus does on a nightly basis. The spurs have a lock down defender in Hill for the smaller guards, but no answer for guys like Durant, and that was really obvious in last night's game.

4. Besides Pietrus' versatility on defense, he also runs the floor very well and finishes on the fast break fairly well. This seems to me to be another area I think the spurs a shaky. Don't get me wrong, Parker IS the best 1 man fast break in the league.. but it would be nice to have a guy trailing Parker that can elevate and finish at the rim. He also gives Parker (and the spurs) a guy in the half court set that can make cuts and go backdoor to the rim and finish top shelf with a lob pass. Not to mention he can drain the 3 pretty well (not quite as good as RMJ but pretty close).

I've watched Pietrus do all these things in an Orlando Magic uniform this year, and it just kills me that the spurs never really considered him on their free agent radar this past off season. And while he made alot of mistakes adjusting early in the year (especially with many unnecessary fouls) he has learned from his mistakes. The knock on him in the past was he had low bball IQ, and whilst that used to be true, all indications are that he is getting the NBA game down now, and becoming a major contributor to a championship caliber team in Orlando. This kind of reminds me of Turkoglu.. it seems the Euro's need a little more time to adjust to the NBA game, but once they do they seem to flourish.. I bet the spurs wish they kept their hands on Turkoglu now instead of letting him slip thru the fingers.. That guy is an amazing player indeed, and an amazing bargain by NBA salary standards.

The only knock on Pietrus has been his inability to stay healthy, which I think was due in part to his recklessness and abandon going to the rim in year's past causing him to take many nasty spills. With his maturity and IQ improving each game, his DNP's will lessen as he becomes a smarter player out there.

Funny, I've been lobbying for the Spurs to acquire Pietrus for about two seasons now. My idea was repeatedly met with the claims of his "low BBIQ". Meanwhile, the Spurs are repeatedly getting attacked at the SF position by superior players across this league. Now that Bowen has fallen out of the rotation, the Spurs are at a supreme disadvantage at that position. Opposing SFs are having great success either from the perimeter or whenever they attack the basket. At this moment, the Spurs are rendered helpless to stop them. Durant is just the latest example of this. On offense, the Spurs have perimeter shooters, albeit inconsistent shooters. Yet they simply do not have another player of similar skills to attack the basket and breakdown the defense.

Frankly, it makes no sense that the Spurs do not have an answer at this position. My fear has always been that they would wait too long to address it and it's finally happened.

It sounds like you watch a lot of Orlando Magic games. Personally, I can't comment on how Pietrus has developed, but from your assessment, it sounds like he's coming along nicely. Your points are well stated. Personally, I still would've rather seen the Spurs take a chance on him and develop him on the fly.

[timvp]

I knew I was right when I started this thread but now it's like Pop is going the extra mile to prove I'm right. So Pop, yeah we get it. Please, please stop the insanity. I'm sorry for broaching the subject.