Better Defender: Dennis Rodman or Tim Duncan

[ohmwrecker]

Good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. Looking at the boxscore, he had only one PF and was 3-6 from the field with 8 pts (so he wasn't a complete offensive liability either). It's baffling he wasn't out there, even though he would've been guarding Kobe instead of Fish anyways

I think the Spurs thought they had the game in hand after that great shot by Duncan and there was no way the Lakers would be able to get a shot off. Crucial error . . . thanks for bringing that up.

[JamStone]

Saying "Ben owes Bowen a DPOY" is the equivalent to saying "Ben didn't deserve it" (the one he owes Bruce)

[Leetonidas]

tbonewalker = got.

/thread

[DeadlyDynasty]

Duncan/Mourning/Wallace are defensive anchors because that is the nature of their position. You aren't going to find many Defensive anchors who were wing players.

Very true, but Wallace was extremely versatile as well. Bowen could lock down his man, but Ben could lock down his man and provide the help D as well as clean the glass. If take what you will from it, but Ben Wallace averaged more than 1 steal/game than Bowen as well (pretty amazing for a 4/5).
Like I said, Bowen was awesome and definitely deserving of All NBA Defense selections, but Ben was DPOY for a reason. The reputation card is not a solid argument either, for Rodman and Artest have won the award before and we know how they were regarded among the media...

[ohmwrecker]

Saying "Ben owes Bowen a DPOY" is the equivalent to saying "Ben didn't deserve it" (the one he owes Bruce)

I guess it could be interpreted that way . . . Sure. That's not what I intended.

[Leetonidas]

Defensively, Duncan is not in the category of Wallace and Mourning. And with Rodman, I've seen him guard Magic on one night, Bird on the next, Jordan on the next, and Shaq to finish off his week.

The Spurs had been the most dominant defensive team from 1998-2008, including the lowest opposing PPG in 2004 ever. Those teams were led by Duncan, that is no fluke. But then again I wouldn't some dumbass like you to actually watch any basketball games that aren't Laker victories.

[JamStone]

And with Rodman, I've seen him guard Magic on one night, Bird on the next, Jordan on the next, and Shaq to finish off his week.

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

[ElNono]

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

[Leetonidas]

^

[DeadlyDynasty]

I think the Spurs thought they had the game in hand after that great shot by Duncan and there was no way the Lakers would be able to get a shot off. Crucial error . . . thanks for bringing that up.

Good times.

[ohmwrecker]

The reputation card is not a solid argument either, for Rodman and Artest have won the award before and we know how they were regarded among the media...

Do not agree at all. The media loves Rodman and Artest. Popular bad boys. Bowen was hated. Boring team. Dirty player. Ad Nauseum.

[Leetonidas]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. He was THE premier wing defender in the league for years, even Kobe said he was the best.

[ohmwrecker]

Good times.

If only they had not waited until Fisher turned around to start the clock . . .

[ohmwrecker]

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

LakaLuva making tbonewalker look like a genius.

[DeadlyDynasty]

If only they had not waited until Fisher turned around to start the clock . . .

It was a great shot, and everyone thought it was going to #8.

[JamStone]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. He was THE premier wing defender in the league for years, even Kobe said he was the best.

Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

It's like saying in the early 2000s, Jason Kidd had established himself as the best point guard for years and deserved to have won at least 1 MVP in those early 2000s. No, because there were better players at other positions, guys like Tim and Shaq.

You can easily argue Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY because there was a guy named Ben Wallace who was more dominant defensively during the time Bruce was the premier wing defender.

[DeadlyDynasty]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2003.html#dpoy

Just for s and giggles here are Ben's 02-03 stats. 15.4 rbg and 3.2 bpg...disgusting

[ohmwrecker]

It was a great shot, and everyone thought it was going to #8.

Come on, you guys have *, let me have this one.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Come on, you guys have *, let me have this one.

I concede nothing!

Seriously though, I hope RJ finds his game and Splitter rounds into form...I miss the Lakers-Spurs playoff matchups. Spurs were never really threatened in the WC in 05 and 07, much like the Lakers weren't in 09 and 10. Some of the faces have changed, but it stills makes for great basketball

[The Franchise]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. .

Why not? There were always better defenders in the league than him every year of his career. You can put him in the conversation, like everyone did, but he was no more deserving than the people who won the award. I could make the same comment about Shane Battier. For a couple of years he played incredible defense, but when you look at his overall effect on the outcome of games, there were players who were more disruptive to the opponents flow on offense. I think that's a large factor in players like Bowen and Battier never winning.

[tbonewalker]

I wouldn't criticize Bowen too much for not rebounding. That was never really asked of him. And as you even pointed out, he was a lockdown perimeter defender, meaning he was often out by the three point line shutting down perimeter players. But that does go to the point about versatility. Ben Wallace could dominate defensively by being a very good (I wouldn't say great) low post defender, an elite shotblocker and rebounder, a very good (not great) man defender out on the perimeter. Ben was also elite at deflecting passes and getting steals for a big man. To me that shows more versatility rather than saying Bruce could guard positions 1-3. Bowen excelled at one thing, perimeter man defense. He didn't excel at anything else defensively, whether rebounding, being an effective post defender, getting in passing lanes for steals. Things like that. Bruce was a great, great defender. I'd argue about the "being more versatile" point.

Which also reminds of someone who by now gets lost in the talks of great defenders in the 2000s. Andrei Kirilenko. In his first few seasons, to me, Kirilenko was about as great a perimeter defender as there was in the league, including the likes of Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest and Doug Christie. And talk about versatile. He could be that lockdown perimeter defender. But he also rebounded, blocked shots, and got steals. Basically the perimeter version of Ben Wallace. And he was a true lockdown perimeter defender. I've always been a fan of his defense. If we talk about versatile defenders, AK-47 should definitely be mentioned. I think injuries too their toll. His game isn't where it was his first 2-3 seasons in the league. But in those early 2000s, man was he a defensive beast.

AK-47 isn't nearly what he used to be. He could have had a great chance to revive his career if that Melo trade went through though.

Still, AK-47 couldn't lock guys up like, for example, Artest.

[Leetonidas]

Why not? There were always better defenders in the league than him every year of his career. You can put him in the conversation, like everyone did, but he was no more deserving than the people who won the award. I could make the same comment about Shane Battier. For a couple of years he played incredible defense, but when you look at his overall effect on the outcome of games, there were players who were more disruptive to the opponents flow on offense. I think that's a large factor in players like Bowen and Battier never winning.

Because Camby should not have won one period.

Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

True, but this isn't "best overall defender" award, it's the defensive player of the year award, and there were definitely a couple years were Bruce deserved it, as well as Tim. I'm not trying to discredit Big Ben because he was a beast but Marcus Camby winning a DPOY is a ing joke.

[Leetonidas]

And you cannot make that comment for Battier because he was never on the level of Bowen/Artest.

[JamStone]

True, but this isn't "best overall defender" award, it's the defensive player of the year award, and there were definitely a couple years were Bruce deserved it, as well as Tim. I'm not trying to discredit Big Ben because he was a beast but Marcus Camby winning a DPOY is a ing joke.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I guess I was focusing on the years Ben and Artest won the award. Camby winning was pretty much a joke. That is definitely something I agree with.

[Leetonidas]

I remember when Big Ben won his last one, that's the one I thought Bowen really deserved. I think at that point he was getting it based off reputation, which is not to say he still wasn't first team defense, but still. He had 3 already man, coulda given one to Brucie. And then the next year when I think Tim of all people will FINALLY get one, they give it to Camby.

That alone kinda invalidates the award for me. If someone like him can win it then you have to wonder how these guys base their decisions on who is the DPOY