Pacquiao vs Marquez

[Dinamita]

The fact that you even think you even have a shadow of objectivity is amusing.

Should i change my avatar? So because Pawe doesn't have a Pac avatar he knows what he's talking about.

Tell me what rounds Pacquiao won clearly please.

[Dinamita]

452 Marquez fans



http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=520477

[Dinamita]

http://michaeldsellers.com/blog/2011...anuel-marquez/

Dear Juan Manuel Marquez,

First, congratulations on an excellent performance against Manny Pacquiao on November 12. You demonstrated that more than any other fighter, you have figured out the Pacquiao puzzle. You deserve great credit for that. [Desplácese hacia abajo de la letra en español]

In your post fight interview you said you were robbed, and that you might retire. That’s understandable in the heat of the moment right after the fight, but after you’ve had a chance to reflect on it, I hope you will elect to continue. It is clear you have the skills and physical ability, and Bernard Hopkins has certainly taught us that 38 is not as old as we thought it was. Your performance against Manny reinforces that.

If you elect to continue fighting, and in particular if you elect to challenge Manny Pacquiao to a fourth fight, I would respectfully suggest that you need to be aware of some realities about judges scoring. Had you been more fully concious and accepting of them this time, you might have won the fight by pushing yourself harder in the later rounds when the fight still hung in the balance. True, by pushing yourself you would be exposing yourself to more risk — even to a possible knockout, but that is always the way of it when you are the challenger attempting to take the belt away from the champion.

The judges in Nevada are charged to look for a) clean, effective punching, b) effective aggression, c) ring generalship, and d) defense. A study of how US (and most other) judges score over the last 10 years shows that in a close fight, the judges almost always favor the fighter who presses the action and is perceived as the aggressor in the fight. Being the aggressor almost always generates a higher punch output, and even if the punches aren’t completely clean, the judges reward the attacking style which, even if it doesn’t result in clean punches, does expose the aggressor to greater risk than his opponent–something that the judges evidently feel should be rewarded. Your reliance on counterpunching, while it may produce cleaner landed shots, will always put you at a disadvantage with judges in a close fight if you rely heavily on the counterpunching style and do not act as the aggressor.

To state the equation very clearly: The very act of launching an attack against a composed, skillful opponent whose guard is up is a risky manuever which exposes the attacker. By taking that risk and launching that attack, the attacker gains favor in the eyes of the judges, and even if his punches don’t land as cleanly as your counterpunches, he gets credit for a) forcing the action and being the aggressor, b) taking the risk associated with attacking a skilled, waiting opponent.

In your first two fights with Manny Pacquiao, while you were oriented toward counterpunching, you also launched offensive attacks and in both of those fights you had a higher volume of punches that Pacquiao; a higher landed punch total; and a higher number of solid, compelling punches. But in those fights — he knocked you down four times. There is no doubt that if you had not been knocked down, you would have won both those fights because all of the other statistics were in your favor.

But this is not true of your most recent fight. In that fight Pacquiao had a higher volume of attacks; higher volume of punches; higher number of landed punches; higher number of landed powershots. Your counters were effective and in some cases dramatic — but by its very nature, your counterpunch oriented approach will impress the fans (and your trainer, evidently), but unless you create knockdowns it will not impress the judges — at least it won’ t impress them enough to offset the advantages that Pacquiao is gaining from his constantly being the aggressor; constantly exposing himself to risk by launching attacks against a waiting opponent; and in doing so generating an overall impression that he’s moving forward while you’re moving backwards; he’s getting off more punches (hence taking more risk); he’s landing more punches even if they’re not as clean (after all he’s punching a waiting opponent, not an exposed one).

Also, if I may offer one other piece of advice. In each of these fights, your Hall of Fame trainer Mr. Berestain has repeatedly told you in the corner between rounds that you are winning the fight. By now, given your highly intelligent nature, you must realize that no matter what Mr. Berestain says, you must keep fighting as if you are not ahead. You are the challenger; the underdog; and you are using a counterpunching style that puts you at a disadvantage with judges. You must never assume you are ahead. In the fight on November 12, if you had gone into the “championship rounds” with the at ude that you must win these rounds, the outcome of the fight might have been different.

Sincerely,,

A Fight Fan who appreciates what you bring to the sport

Juan Manuel Marquez Robbed In Las Vegas! Arum Wants Marquez-Pacquiao IV

By James Slater: So much for Manny Pacquiao ending all arguments by winning a decisive victory over Juan Manuel Marquez in their third meeting. Last night’s majority win for Pac-Man asked way more questions than it gave us answers. Just who is the better fighter of the two - the Filipino superstar or the Mexican hero?

Last night’s fight, for me, showed three things: Pacquiao has lost a step, he is no longer the speed demon we have grown accustomed to seeing, and Marquez will always have his number. Did Marquez deserve the win last night? For me, definitely. For what it’s worth, I had it a wide eight rounds to four for the amazing 38-year-old. Doubtless a lot of fans agreed with me, seeing how there was plenty of booing to be heard inside the MGM Grand as the decision was announced.

Marquez, amazingly, was the faster fighter of the two, he had the sharper, more accurate punches - his right hand to the head proving to be a nightmare for Pac-Man, bang on target as it was all night long - and the older man even took Pacquiao to school on occasion. Pacquiao’s balance was poor, his punches fell short at times and he looked a frustrated, even demoralised fighter at the end of the engrossing 12 rounds.

Marquez stormed out of the ring as soon as the cards were read out, and who can blame him? Many fans and experts had “Dinamita” winning the previous two fights with Pacquiao, yet the 2004 and 2008 bouts were mighty close. Last night’s fight was not close: Marquez was flat out robbed. Esteemed U.K boxing pundit Steve Bunce, a studio guest for Prime Time, went as far as to say he will be shocked if last night’s decision is not investigated by the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

No way will the decision be overturned, but an inquiry may happen anyway. Pacquiao said post-fight how he knew he’d won clearly, and his promoter Bob Arum was all smiles after the fight. Deep down, however, I’m sure both men know Marquez was the real winner last night. Freddie Roach also has to know his fighter lost.

But what next for the Pound-for-Pound king (is Pacquiao actually still deserving of such a lofty distinction?) and Marquez? Arum, beaming as he spoke, talked of his desire to “smash all box office records” with a fourth instalment of Pacquiao Vs. Marquez. Arum spoke of having the fight next May. Aside from winning by a clean KO, though, what chance will Marquez have of having his hand raised in a fourth fight? And where will Floyd Mayweather turn if Pacquiao fights Marquez again, instead of facing him in the fight we have been asking for for years?

Mayweather also wants to fight in May: will Arum look to upstage “Money” by hosting Pacquiao-Marquez IV that same month, also in Vegas? For the first time, I’m now convinced Mayweather will beat Pacquiao. No longer the ferocious, unstoppable dynamo he was a year or two ago, Pacquiao has slowed down sufficiently for Mayweather to be able to take him. Was this what the canny Mayweather was waiting for all the time?

The final world must go to the quite brilliant Marquez. What he did last night was truly remarkable - even if the three judges didn’t think so. Despite failing to get the win, Marquez still shook up the sport big time.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=29851&more=1

[Dinamita]

[TheMACHINE]

Whats funny is that MArquez won on some judges scorecard in the first 2 fights and not one judge had him winning on the recent one. Concidence that Maruez threw more back then? Crazy how agression really factors in these decisions.

[TheGreatest23]

Just curious Dinamita...who did you think won the first 2 fights?

[Cry Havoc]

Should i change my avatar? So because Pawe doesn't have a Pac avatar he knows what he's talking about.

Tell me what rounds Pacquiao won clearly please.

What does what Pawe has been saying have to do with what I said? I guess because he's a Manny homer automatically invalidates what I say, is that it?

blah blah blah

We know man. People who disagree with you are wrong and know nothing about boxing, people who agree with you are experts on pugilism. That's all that's left for you to say at this point, because every other post you make not-so-subtly hints at it.

[Dinamita]

You can disagree with me but bringing up compubox to score the fight, a picture of marquez stepping on his foot then yes they clearly don't know. This isn't amateur boxing fights aren't scored based on how much you land.

Doesn't matter if i'm a JMM fan or not tons of people say he won from pro boxers, hof, current world champions, trainers, pac fans, and nearly all of the press row scoring had him winning again. I guess they can't be objective and are hidden Marquez fans.

btw i still want to know what rounds were CLEAR manny rounds.

thanks

[TheGreatest23]

^^ you expecting people to watch all 12 rounds again? jeez. lol obsessed much?

[TheGreatest23]

im not a big fight fan and dont care for who wins or loses, but i honestly think the fight was so close in each round that anyone could have won and im not surprised there was a draw in the scorecard.

just my two cents.

[weebo]

I just want to know one thing. If Pacquiao really won that fight, wouldn't he have landed enough punches to send Marquez to the canvas? I've seen Manny send guys twice his size lights out yet he couldn't do it with a guy his size?

[TheMACHINE]

I just want to know one thing. If Pacquiao really won that fight, wouldn't he have landed enough punches to send Marquez to the canvas? I've seen Manny send guys twice his size lights out yet he couldn't do it with a guy his size?

Marquez and his fans believed Marquez won the first two fights, and pacquiao sent him to the canvas 4 times (let it be known that marquez has never sent Pacquiao to the canvas). So does your question really have relevance?...if so, please explain.

[JamStone]

I'm late to the discussion, but thought I'd give my two cents. Disclaimer: I'm Filipino and I'm in no way, shape, or form a boxing fanatic or enthusiast. I did watch the fight, and I think I have a fairly objective take on it.

I don't think Pacquiao won the fight. On the flip side, I don't think Marquez won the fight either. Neither fighter gave me a very strong impression. I do think Manny was more aggressive for much of the fight, but his aggression was tempered by his inability to get sustained rallies with combinations going. And a lot of that had to do with Marquez's obvious style and strategy. I don't think either fighter took the fight by any means. To me, the most fair decision would have been a draw.

To a few of the points, I wouldn't say it's right or wrong, but to me because I do think the fight was pretty much a toss-up, I understand why the two judges went in favor of Pacquiao, to keep the hype and purse for a possible Mayweather fight at its peak. And to the point that has been talked about the most, whether or not Nacho believed Marquez was winning the fight in the final 2-3 rounds, if you're Marquez, don't you have to leave no doubt and attack Manny? Especially with that cut over his eye the last two rounds. An aggressive Marquez in the last 2-3 rounds, and he stands a really good shot of taking the decision imo.

I thought Marquez's overall gameplan and strategy gave him a chance to win. But when you don't go for the kill in the final rounds when you had a chance to do so, you leave it up to the judges and risk something like that happening. Knock Manny down just once, give a more convincing 11th and/or 12th round, I think we are talking about Marquez taking the fight.

[weebo]

Marquez and his fans believed Marquez won the first two fights, and pacquiao sent him to the canvas 4 times (let it be known that marquez has never sent Pacquiao to the canvas). So does your question really have relevance?...if so, please explain.

Let me start by saying that I'm a fan of neither these two guys so I'm not making excuses for Marquez if that's your assumption. Now as you stated, Pacquiao sent Marquez down 4 times in the previous two fights which he didn't overwhelm and many might say barely won. However, many are clamoring victory in a bout where it looked like to me he did a lot less.

Now you can say the Marquez didn't deserve to win because he didn't take it from Pacquiao, but Marquez is a champion and great fighter in his own right. He certainly doesn't need to prove his worth to any judge. Could he have done more? Sure but so could Pacquiao. I'm just saying that neither fighter did anything spectacular and from my eyes Marquez did a little more than Pacquiao. I don't know maybe its Manny's reckless style that gives him the benefit of the doubt in the eyes of his supporters and judges?

[TheMACHINE]

Let me start by saying that I'm a fan of neither these two guys so I'm not making excuses for Marquez if that's your assumption. Now as you stated, Pacquiao sent Marquez down 4 times in the previous two fights which he didn't overwhelm and many might say barely won. However, many are clamoring victory in a bout where it looked like to me he did a lot less.

Now you can say the Marquez didn't deserve to win because he didn't take it from Pacquiao, but Marquez is a champion and great fighter in his own right. He certainly doesn't need to prove his worth to any judge. Could he have done more? Sure but so could Pacquiao. I'm just saying that neither fighter did anything spectacular and from my eyes Marquez did a little more than Pacquiao. I don't know maybe its Manny's reckless style that gives him the benefit of the doubt in the eyes of his supporters and judges?

i agree with everything you and jamstone stated. Thats why i never have said it was clear fought match. Ive also said if Marquez got the decision, i wouldnt be surprised. You know it was gonna be controversial when after every round you ask everyone, "who won that round?" lol

also keep in mind that Marquez through a lot of punches those first two fights, definately making it closer even when he got knocked down. It all comes back to agression in close fights.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm late to the discussion, but thought I'd give my two cents. Disclaimer: I'm Filipino and I'm in no way, shape, or form a boxing fanatic or enthusiast. I did watch the fight, and I think I have a fairly objective take on it.

I don't think Pacquiao won the fight. On the flip side, I don't think Marquez won the fight either. Neither fighter gave me a very strong impression. I do think Manny was more aggressive for much of the fight, but his aggression was tempered by his inability to get sustained rallies with combinations going. And a lot of that had to do with Marquez's obvious style and strategy. I don't think either fighter took the fight by any means. To me, the most fair decision would have been a draw.

To a few of the points, I wouldn't say it's right or wrong, but to me because I do think the fight was pretty much a toss-up, I understand why the two judges went in favor of Pacquiao, to keep the hype and purse for a possible Mayweather fight at its peak. And to the point that has been talked about the most, whether or not Nacho believed Marquez was winning the fight in the final 2-3 rounds, if you're Marquez, don't you have to leave no doubt and attack Manny? Especially with that cut over his eye the last two rounds. An aggressive Marquez in the last 2-3 rounds, and he stands a really good shot of taking the decision imo.

I thought Marquez's overall gameplan and strategy gave him a chance to win. But when you don't go for the kill in the final rounds when you had a chance to do so, you leave it up to the judges and risk something like that happening. Knock Manny down just once, give a more convincing 11th and/or 12th round, I think we are talking about Marquez taking the fight.

This mirrors my take, basically.

[ezau]

In what world did Marquez give up round 12?

I don't see Marquez beign specially cautious there.

Marquez didn't only slow down from rounds 10-12, he also started missing badly. You can't do that when you're the challenger and you're against the best boxer in the world IMHO.

[ezau]

clearly you don't stop embarrassing yourself.



You must be new to boxing.

LOL 0-2 against Pac
LOL thinking Marquez beat Pac
LOL Mexican supporters
LOL getting knocked down four times
LOL happy as that Marquez was compe ive against Pac

[ezau]

The Judge that scored it 116-112 for Pac, gave marquez the 12th round..
he shouldn't have slowed down

I rewatched the fight last night have 7 rounds to 5. it was a close fight but there wasn't any rounds that Manny clearly dominated except for maybe 1 like you said. Marquez had 4 rounds where he clearly dominated.

And at people still confusing lunging and off-balance wild shots as being effective aggressiveness.

Can someone explain how Floyd is still Undefeated yet he's never the "aggressor"?
Thanks.

Clearly, you didn't watch Floyd-Castillo I years ago. Many people think that Castillo won that fight.

boxing noob

[ezau]

neither was more aggresive than the other. Pacman was better in the beginning and end rounds. Marquez was better in the middle rounds.

agree with what stated above, the challenger has to go for a knockdown vs. the champ or risk losing in a decision. Gayweather gets the same treatment. Why can't pacman?

That's what I'm talking about. It's simple really: If you want to beat the champ and the best boxer in the world at that, never leave anything to the judges.

Knock him out! Sadly, Marquez has been knocked down four times in this trilogy already

[ezau]

452 Marquez fans



http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=520477

So where's Marquez's belt?

[ezau]

I'm late to the discussion, but thought I'd give my two cents. Disclaimer: I'm Filipino and I'm in no way, shape, or form a boxing fanatic or enthusiast. I did watch the fight, and I think I have a fairly objective take on it.

I don't think Pacquiao won the fight. On the flip side, I don't think Marquez won the fight either. Neither fighter gave me a very strong impression. I do think Manny was more aggressive for much of the fight, but his aggression was tempered by his inability to get sustained rallies with combinations going. And a lot of that had to do with Marquez's obvious style and strategy. I don't think either fighter took the fight by any means. To me, the most fair decision would have been a draw.

To a few of the points, I wouldn't say it's right or wrong, but to me because I do think the fight was pretty much a toss-up, I understand why the two judges went in favor of Pacquiao, to keep the hype and purse for a possible Mayweather fight at its peak. And to the point that has been talked about the most, whether or not Nacho believed Marquez was winning the fight in the final 2-3 rounds, if you're Marquez, don't you have to leave no doubt and attack Manny? Especially with that cut over his eye the last two rounds. An aggressive Marquez in the last 2-3 rounds, and he stands a really good shot of taking the decision imo.

I thought Marquez's overall gameplan and strategy gave him a chance to win. But when you don't go for the kill in the final rounds when you had a chance to do so, you leave it up to the judges and risk something like that happening. Knock Manny down just once, give a more convincing 11th and/or 12th round, I think we are talking about Marquez taking the fight.

Great post!

[ezau]

Manny got his ass kicked. Her better pray his promoter continue to play games and avoid Money at all costs.

Since you're a huge Naruto fan, who's gonna win in a fight? Naruto or Pacquiao?

[LakerHater]

They had to give it to Manny, if they ever want the Floyd fight!

[Dinamita]

Clearly, you didn't watch Floyd-Castillo I years ago. Many people think that Castillo won that fight.

boxing noob

Oh you mean like this fight?

I don't even have to try to make you look dumb you do it just fine on your own.