NBA: Jason Collins comes out of the closet

[Thebesteva]

Why is everyone fighting in here? I'm kind of against 's especially gay marriage but it's not us taking a shower with him in that locker. Who cares? Why is Obama calling this guy to congratulate him for bravery? Why haven't I gotten a medal for dealing with my life?

[Chinook]

Again, your argument is regurgitated bull . It isn't "moral" to respect the existence of ignorance and anti-progressive sentiment. Let me make it clear that I am in no way attempting to tackle any legality resolution, but your attempt to justify hostility and stupidity and a shallow and backwards way of thinking.

Hostility is not the same thing as disagreement. Do you think I am saying that teams should be allowed to prevent Collins from signing with them because he's gay? I'm not, not at all. But yes, players like Chris Culliver have every right to not like gay people if they choose. So long as he doesn't attack his teammate or ruin locker-room chemistry, it should be a non-issue. That's what it means to have a free society. You may think it's bull to support people's rights to be bigots, but don't try then to use arguments about freedom to support sexuality. It words both ways.

And again, morals are not based on knowledge. You don't change morals by learning facts. You can change morals by experience, sure. But it's not like if someone spends a year with a gay person and is still a phobe, you can just say, well, they just haven't learned enough yet.

Stop telling people what they need to believe. That's all I'm saying. If it doesn't affect the product they're putting out, it should be a non-issue.

[Chinook]

I guess youre right on that. Irrationality is probably worse tbh.

And it is perfectly within a companys or societys right to judge someone as a lesser person because they hate people with a certain skin color/sexual preference, especially if youre open about your hatred. Just like they choose to have their irrational beliefs we can choose to look down on them because of those beliefs.

Irrationality is much worse. Pretty much, it means that your brain is broken. It's like knowledge is the input into a computer and rationality is the program it's running. If the program's broken, no input can fix it.

It shouldn't be within a company's right to do that. Otherwise, what's to stop companies from using that same line of reasoning to prevent openly gay people from buying their goods or gaining employment with them? That's the kind of stuff we should be focusing on getting rid of (and are making progress on), not whether some person votes for same-sex marriage still believes being gay is a sin.

[Killakobe81]

You know what would help their cause more? Some closet flamer were to step in the ring and whup Jones in a UFc fight and his pillow biting partner run in to the ring to give him a congratulatory tonguing live on ppv ...Twitter might explode/melt that night.

[TDfan2007]

Morals aren't facts -- their opinions. Faith is perfectly acceptable as the basis of morals.

I didn't justify any social injustice. In fact, I specifically stated that laws should be formed to protect everyone's rights. But their shouldn't be a law to prevent people from being offended. That doesn't jive with rights theory.

It's like people miss the forest through the trees. The problem with the KKK (for example) isn't their beliefs; it's when they act on them. We don't have a right to control their beliefs just because we don't agree with them. That is a true social injustice. In the same way, it's an injustice to attack people for stating their opinions. It's not an injustice to belief someone's lifestyle is wrong.

*ding ding ding*

As an individual, you're en led to your belief, be it illogical, ignorant, or otherwise, but once you start acting on those beliefs in a way that is harmful to others you've crossed a line.

As for this whole Collins thing. What he did is no more of a big deal than my neighbor coming out. In a society where bigotry exists, outing yourself as something that is different takes a certain level of bravery, but it ends there. He's not some shining example for athletes, since a) he was/is a scrub, b) never played, and c) hasn't really ever been in the public eye.

In short, WGAF?

[Proxy]

Hostility is not the same thing as disagreement. Do you think I am saying that teams should be allowed to prevent Collins from signing with them because he's gay? I'm not, not at all. But yes, players like Chris Culliver have every right to not like gay people if they choose. So long as he doesn't attack his teammate or ruin locker-room chemistry, it should be a non-issue. That's what it means to have a free society. You may think it's bull to support people's rights to be bigots, but don't try then to use arguments about freedom to support sexuality. It words both ways.

And again, morals are not based on knowledge. You don't change morals by learning thing facts. You can change morals by experience, sure. But it's not like if someone spends a year with a gay person and is still a phobe, you can just say, well, they just haven't learned enough yet.

Stop telling people what they need to believe. That's all I'm saying. If it doesn't affect the product they're putting out, it should be a non-issue.

I think you're too idealistic. Sure, if no one's getting hurt, you're spot on. That's not the case. Maybe in the nba, but not around the world.

[Chinook]

I think you're too idealistic. Sure, if no one's getting hurt, you're spot on. That's not the case. Maybe in the nba, but not around the world.

I'm not against campaigns to promote awareness of sexuality and that champion gay rights at all. I am fine with having more gay people in leading roles (like movies and other aspects of culture). I think the government should punish employees who show signs of prejudice in their works places harshly. But it needs to stop at that type of action. We can't let the views of the majority trump the views of the minority simply because of the damage taking the minority view to the extreme might cause. No one deserves to be shunned for their beliefs; that's at the heart of the gay-rights movement.

Actions are another matter entirely. Hate crimes should be punished severely (which they are) and the government should make it clear that that will always be the case. But we can't use crime prevention as a justification of thought control. That's the same type of reasoning that leads to the conflicts in Minority Report and 1984. We have to take the good with the bad when it comes to allowing freedom of speech. That's the burden of a free society.

So if I could wave a magic wand and end all discrimination, I would. But because I can't do that, I feel that we have to protect all opinions and work on preventing conflict instead.

[Venti Quattro]

Don't drop the soap...

[AaronY]

Don't drop the soap...

Careful with the light hearted gay jokes, you phobe..

[Venti Quattro]

Of course, I'm worse than these mother ers...

[Jacob1983]

I don't see how this spare is a hero. What is heroic about telling people secrets? Are you going to tell me that this guy is on the same level as a doctor, soldier, cop, teacher, or paramedic? No in' way. Wouldn't an NBA player want to be known and remembered because of their stats, records, and greatness rather than being known as a gay spare player?

[Venti Quattro]

I don't see how this spare is a hero. What is heroic about telling people secrets? Are you going to tell me that this guy is on the same level as a doctor, soldier, cop, teacher, or paramedic? No in' way. Wouldn't an NBA player want to be known and remembered because of their stats, records, and greatness rather than being known as a gay spare player?

So that's why you're not admitting, even to yourself, that you're clinically depressed?

[DPG21920]

There is no reason to 'not believe' in sexuality. Or to 'disagree/oppose' homsexuality. It exists and its part of this world, thats like if gay people said they dont believe in heterosexuality. phobic is just another word for ignorant tbh.

I don't get this at all? If you have a religious belief, of course there is a reason to oppose it or disagree with it. What that doesn't give you the right to do however is trample over someone's right. I don't agree with hating someone over something like that at all but tolerance is not celebration. It's acknowledgment that something other than what you believe exists and you accept that.

It's no different than me having a Jewish friend (I.E. different set of beliefs) but being able to see past that and appreciate that person. Or politics. Same thing.

[AaronY]

Ugh..the serious discussion itt makes me wanna open up a ing vein..

Paragraphs upon paragraphs of saccharine, anti-insightful bull

[Proxy]

I'm not against campaigns to promote awareness of sexuality and that champion gay rights at all. I am fine with having more gay people in leading roles (like movies and other aspects of culture). I think the government should punish employees who show signs of prejudice in their works places harshly. But it needs to stop at that type of action. We can't let the views of the majority trump the views of the minority simply because of the damage taking the minority view to the extreme might cause. No one deserves to be shunned for their beliefs; that's at the heart of the gay-rights movement.

Actions are another matter entirely. Hate crimes should be punished severely (which they are) and the government should make it clear that that will always be the case. But we can't use crime prevention as a justification of thought control. That's the same type of reasoning that leads to the conflicts in Minority Report and 1984. We have to take the good with the bad when it comes to allowing freedom of speech. That's the burden of a free society.

So if I could wave a magic wand and end all discrimination, I would. But because I can't do that, I feel that we have to protect all opinions and work on preventing conflict instead.

Jenny McCarthy can convince the country that vaccines cause autism and we open ourselves to epidemic. Her opinion is detrimental and entirely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. People think global warming isn't real when they don't know the science. It's an opinion that humanity starts at conception. These are "opinions." I get the whole Minority Report thing, but that sentiment didn't stop the patriot act and some form of SOPA is always on deck. Look at the whole picture. You say 1984, and I say Brave New World. Putting real money into education is the key, tbh.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Ugh..the serious discussion itt makes me wanna open up a ing vein..

Paragraphs upon paragraphs of saccharine, anti-insightful bull

Just wait till CryHavoc sees this thread and offers one of his uterine soliloquies

[Chinook]

Jenny McCarthy can convince the country that vaccines cause autism and we open ourselves to epidemic. Her opinion is detrimental and entirely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. People think global warming isn't real when they don't know the science. It's an opinion that humanity starts at conception. These are "opinions." I get the whole Minority Report thing, but that sentiment didn't stop the patriot act and some form of SOPA is always on deck. Look at the whole picture. You say 1984, and I say Brave New World. Putting real money into education is the key, tbh.

Yeah, we agree there.

Are you aware of the Offense and Harms principles? They're philosophical curtailments on free speech. The Harms Principle says you don't have a right to say something that directly leads to the death or injury of others. That's the whole idea about not being about to shout fire in a theatre. The Offense Principle says you can't say something if it offends others. I believe in the Harms Principle, and I think McCarthy's campaign falls under that restriction. Just like I believe that KKK members inciting their troops to do violence is not protected by the first amendment.

But I think that's different from the idea of stopping phobia to prevent anti-gay hate crimes. We should prevent people from urging others to attack gay people. But simply saying, "I don't want gay team members," like Culliver did isn't on that level. One's an incitement to harm and the other is just an opinion. We should educate people on that distinction as well as educating them on misconceptions.

And yes, I think the Patriot Act was a bad idea. I'm not championing any political platform here.

[DPG21920]

Ugh..the serious discussion itt makes me wanna open up a ing vein..

Paragraphs upon paragraphs of saccharine, anti-insightful bull

No one cares what you think. Better?

[AaronY]

Just wait till CryHavoc sees this thread and offers one of his uterine soliloquies

lol guys like literally the biggest poster of all time. I honestly cannot believe you mentioned his name, and to top it off the guys massively in love with Caley Cuoco of all people. Dude worships her 5/10 ass like she's a cross between Kate Upton and prime Cindy Crawford because she's on some nerd show he watches

[Koolaid_Man]

I don't get this at all? If you have a religious belief, of course there is a reason to oppose it or disagree with it. What that doesn't give you the right to do however is trample over someone's right. I don't agree with hating someone over something like that at all but tolerance is not celebration. It's acknowledgment that something other than what you believe exists and you accept that.

It's no different than me having a Jewish friend (I.E. different set of beliefs) but being able to see past that and appreciate that person. Or politics. Same thing.

^ I do have a religious belief...a belief that betting is morally wrong. You can disagree with me but it doesn't give you the right to trample on that moral conviction. Same thing to as having a black internet friend you cannot pay his debts... You should be able to see past my swindle and appreciate me

[Chinook]

^ You gotta give him credit for trying.

[Koolaid_Man]

I don't see how this spare is a hero. What is heroic about telling people secrets? Are you going to tell me that this guy is on the same level as a doctor, soldier, cop, teacher, or paramedic? No in' way. Wouldn't an NBA player want to be known and remembered because of their stats, records, and greatness rather than being known as a gay spare player?

he's black (he forgot to mention ugly) and gay..theres nothing more salacious and juicy about a good in the booty story

[Proxy]

Yeah, we agree there.

Are you aware of the Offense and Harms principles? They're philosophical curtailments on free speech. The Harms Principle says you don't have a right to say something that directly leads to the death or injury of others. That's the whole idea about not being about to shout fire in a theatre. The Offense Principle says you can't say something if it offends others. I believe in the Harms Principle, and I think McCarthy's campaign falls under that restriction. Just like I believe that KKK members inciting their troops to do violence is not protected by the first amendment.

But I think that's different from the idea of stopping phobia to prevent anti-gay hate crimes. We should prevent people from urging others to attack gay people. But simply saying, "I don't want gay team members," like Culliver did isn't on that level. One's an incitement to harm and the other is just an opinion. We should educate people on that distinction as well as educating them on misconceptions.

And yes, I think the Patriot Act was a bad idea. I'm not championing any political platform here.

The more you know... I'm aware of the first amendment being overridden in wartime, and the harms principle seems like common sense. The offense principle is interesting to me, but it seems like a difficult thing to enforce tbh. Again, I have no ideas regarding the legality of correcting phobia or racism, but as long as people's lives are potentially ruined, I'll see the opinion as something far more destructive than someone's color preference.

I don't see why you wouldn't think phobia should be stopped under the O&H principles when we hear things of people's psychological damage due to growing up gay... and stories of kids committing suicide. Those things are even bigger issues than marriage and serving in the army. One could argue that the people with these "opinions" are entirely responsible for some 14 year old killing themselves.

[Chinook]

The more you know... I'm aware of the first amendment being overridden in wartime, and the harms principle seems like common sense. The offense principle is interesting to me, but it seems like a difficult thing to enforce tbh. Again, I have no ideas regarding the legality of correcting phobia or racism, but as long as people's lives are potentially ruined, I'll see the opinion as something far more destructive than someone's color preference.

I don't see why you wouldn't think phobia should be stopped under the O&H principles when we hear things of people's psychological damage due to growing up gay... and stories of kids committing suicide. Those things are even bigger issues than marriage and serving in the army. One could argue that the people with these "opinions" are entirely responsible for some 14 year old killing themselves.

I see that as an indirect harm. It's not the words that are making the kids kill themselves; it's the lack of support by teachers and parents. Same reason why I don't have an issue with the N-word. I don't think the word defines me, so I don't take offense to it.

People should be taught to not associate themselves with slurs and to judge people on their actions, not their vocabulary. I think someone who says " s should be allowed to married," should be seen in a better light (from a character standpoint) than someone who says, "I don't think sexual individuals should be allowed to marry." People get bullied for a lot of reasons, and some kids kill themselves due to multiple types of bullying (weight, race, religion). But we need to address that in the minds of the bullied, not in the minds of the bullies. Teaching people to accept themselves and that their sexual orientation (or whatever) is normal doesn't violate anyone's rights.

[Chinook]

Don't get me wrong, though. I'd beat the out of my kid if I heard of them bullying a kid based on their sexual orientation.