How many of you people...

[jochhejaam]

It's 11:35 here and I'm going to repair to my lair.
nite all.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't spin and if I were avoiding I wouldn't be posting.

I don't think you're going to decide for me what is and what is not crucial to my religion. Your question and its answer is in no way essential to my relationship with Christ nor does it have any bearing on where I spend eternity! I have met thousands of Christians in my lifetime and not one of them has expressed concern about freewill vs predestination. It's not an issue.

Facts that are crucial
-God is our Creator
-God loves us
-All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God
-The wages our sin is death
-Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son and he came and took the sins of the world upon himself dying for the sins that we had commited.
-By asking Him who has died on the Cross and whom God has raised from the dead into our lives we have been cleansed of our sins and are recipients of the victory that Christ has over sin.

I'm not trying to get you to question your faith. I'm trying to get an understanding of what I feel are contradictions within Christian faith and why you do not feel the same way.

I think it is ok to have your faith in your beliefs regardless if you have all the answers. That is why they call it faith. But you have yet to refuse to either say Yes, or No, to what is a very direct question. You can elaborate upon answering if you'd like, but in the end it still comes down to either Yes, No, or saying you don't know.

I've had many of these dicussions with a former pastor of mine, and he never failed to directly answer me. That is not to say we did not see things in different lights, but if he had the answers - and sometimes he woudl admit to not having them, for priest or not he was but a man - he would always be very straight with me. He has set the bar for me as far as religous dialouge goes, and no amount of devils advocat would ever challenge his faith.

[jochhejaam]

I think it is ok to have your faith in your beliefs regardless if you have all the answers. That is why they call it faith. But you have yet to refuse to either say Yes, or No, to what is a very direct question. You can elaborate upon answering if you'd like, but in the end it still comes down to either Yes, No, or saying you don't know.

In your way of thinking it has to come down to "yes, no or don't know". However I'm not bound by the limitations, guidelines or structure by which you wish to receive as an answer.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Feel free to go over the responses I have given to you on your own regarding your question and come up with your own conclusion about what my answer would be. Our minds are finite, God's is not. Perhaps you would like to do more independent research on the subject in order to come up with a more concrete answer than I am able to give you at this time.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will be searching for me and I will be there, when you have gone after me with all your heart.

[jochhejaam]

I wouldn't mind a simple I don't know, but instead you have have tried your best to avoid saying yes or no.

That is a shame

It's come to the point where what you want is no longer thoughtful insight into your original question but an unequivical "yes, no, or I don't know from an individual" By doing so you have reduced meaningful discussion into a game. That's the real shame.

game over.

[MannyIsGod]

Uh, I could have done independent research and I have, but then what would be the point of this discussion?

Game Over? Ok?



Damn, I didn't think that question was really that difficult to answer. Simply going off of your claim of omnicense God obviously knows who is going to be saved and who is not. But then again, I guess you don't see it that way.

I unfortunetly am bound by language and the meanings of the words in a said language. Infinte mind? Sure! I think? Infinite meanings for words? No?

[smeagol]

So, is there room in your heaven for Muslims, Hindus, Jews and anyone else who worships a god?

I’m not qualified to answer this question in depth given my ignorance on Catholic Theology on the subject.

I personally believe that everybody will have a chance to be saved. But that’s just me.

If only there was a handy reference manual to explain all this and set the record straight.

If only . . .

[JoeChalupa]

I think I'm thinking outside the box and I think it is a good thing.
No need to have to think like a "democrat" or a "republican" but thinking for myself and the with other think of my political opinions.
I'm liberal, conservative but most of all I'm an American!!

Semper fi!!

[jochhejaam]

It is a yes or no answer. Either God knows who is going to be saved, or he doesn't.

Another take on the subject. (after conferring with my cons uents )
The verse below from Romans mentions predestinate which back in the time it was written (translated from the Greek) it meant ordained (establish by decree).

So this can be intrepreted that God had, before we were created, decreed that all of His creation was part of His plan to be united with Him in heaven. That is the destiny prescribed for us. The problem is that many have decided, of their own free will, that they do not wish to partake of his plan (why would anyone choose not to and choose instead) and therefore will not be united with Him for all eternity.

IMHO God knows who will stray from His plan and He know who will adhere to His plan

Romans 8:28-30 - "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate (ordain), them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

[cecil collins]

If he knows what will happen, then it can not be free will, as free will is not something that can exist concurrent with predestiny. If what you are going to do is already known, then how do you really have an independent choice. The only answer that could make sense to me, based on what you have said, is that he has a plan, but people have their choice on whether to follow the plan. This would also mean that he has no idea who will follow the plan.

[smeagol]

I have a question:

Why some people need to believe in Gods or religions nowadays?

I'm an atheist, and I have always made that question to religious people, because simply, I just can't understand it. I know it's a matter of faith, to believe or not, but I'm curious why people need to believe.

In my case, MMLH, I’m not sure I would describe it as a “need”. I use to be an atheist such as you, not so long ago. I used to question the same things you question and I felt the Church was wrong, and I mean dead wrong, on many subjects. Some are more worldly (abortion, use of condoms, celibacy) and some others which are more metaphysical (if there is a Heaven, why can’t we all get there, i.e. why is there eternal damnation, if there is a God who created us and the World around us, and loves us very much, why is the World such a f*cked up place, etc).

A couple of years ago, I started question my beliefs which were based on the non-existence of God. After some soul searching, which included conversations with friends and reading tons of literature about religion and different philosophies, I concluded that this World and especially we human beings, was created by some intelligent being.

It did not make sense to me that this World with all its beauty and perfection was the result a big coincidence. Furthermore, and most important of all, I did not find plausible the idea that us human beings came to be what we are, also as the result of coincidence after coincidence. I can’t reconcile a human being, with our multiple personalities, the array of emotions we can feel and the perfection of our human body, with a unicellular ameba swimming in a prehistoric ocean millions of years ago.

In conclusion, my soul searching led me to the following place: this World and we humans are part of an intelligent plan. There is a reason why we are put on this Earth (not a series on coincidences). We are part of a play . . . or a story. And if there is a plan, there is someone behind the plan. If there is a play or a story, there is a play writer or a storyteller.

As soon I was convinced of God’s existence, I felt an urge to thank him for all the good things that were happening to me at the time. This urge has been with me ever since.

After I was convinced of the existence of God, I started looking for additional answers to my philosophical questions in the Christian Faith. I had been baptized and took my First Communion, but at the age of 16 I stopped going to Church altogether. I was a full blown atheist by the age of 20. Now I was rediscovering the Faith and finding all the answers to my questions there. Every time I have a new doubt, I turned to the Christian teachings and I found the answer.

That’s in a nuts why I started believing in God and why I believe Christianity is the answer to many of my philosophical doubts (preguntas existenciales)

[MannyIsGod]

Smeagol, ever wonder what created the creator?

[MannyIsGod]

I for one, have no idea what/who if anything created the Universe. I sometimes feel spiritual, sometimes not, but I never really think that Christianity makes much sense. My beliefs are ever evolving, but my beliefs do not involve a system of rules or control that are at the root of every organized religion I've come into contact with.

Thats not to say I don't think organized religion does good thing or has positive effects, but I seem them as systems of control.

[smeagol]

I for one, have no idea what/who if anything created the Universe.

I can’t affirm who created the Universe with 100% of certainty, but I have come to believe it was not created by coincidence. I believe there is someone behind Creation.

I sometimes feel spiritual, sometimes not, but I never really think that Christianity makes much sense.

Fair enough. I understand what you feel (or at least I think I do) because I once too thought Christianity made no sense.

My beliefs are ever evolving, but my beliefs do not involve a system of rules or control that are at the root of every organized religion I've come into contact with.

My beliefs are pretty much set because I believe I found the answer to many of the life-changing questions such as who are we, where do we come from, why were we put on this Earth and where is our ultimate destination.

Thats not to say I don't think organized religion does good thing or has positive effects, but I seem them as systems of control.

Actually, Christianity has freed me from the limitations I felt when I was a pure materialist. If you feel you are at perfect ease and in communion with that organized religion, you do not feel controlled by it.

[Swishy McJackass]

Actually, Christianity has freed me from the limitations I felt when I was a pure materialist. If you feel you are at perfect ease and in communion with that organized religion, you do not feel controlled by it.

In what way did you feel that you were limited as a materialist?

[JoeChalupa]

For those who don't believe.....who do you all pray to when hits the fan and you need for a loved one who is gravely ill or injured?

Or do you simply just not pray?

Just wondering.

[Swishy McJackass]

If you don't believe, who is there to pray to?

I personally don't pray.

[JoeChalupa]

So does that mean you do nothing, other than go see a doctor maybe, when you are ill? What do you do when someone you love is an accident or is seriously ill?

Do you just say, "That's the way it goes", and move on? How do you deal with it?
Do you just talk to the little man inside you?

[smeagol]

In what way did you feel that you were limited as a materialist?

I probably did not feel it entirely back then, but I do realize now that by having a materialistic view, i.e. believing that this World is nothing but a set of random events (which I call coincidences) that have made it possible for humans to develop from some minuscule from of sea life, for trees to grow 20 or 30 feet high and be filed with fruits, for birds to fly and animals to roam free, for mountains to rise over valleys and rivers meander through jungles, for all of this to happen with no captain behind the wheel, I was essentially trapped in a World that has no room for magic, no room for miracles.

Back in the days, my life was limited by the things of this World. My limits were imposed by the “natural”, by what is worldly. Now I feel that I’m limited by the “supernatural”, by things of another Eternal World. As a materialist, you are only allowed to believe that what you do has an effect on this World and is limited in time (in most cases), as a Christian you believe that what you do is not limited by things of this World and certainly their not limited by time (what we do hear has Eternal consequences).

[cecil collins]

I personally don't pray either. It may seem weird to you, because praying is what you know, but praying seems crazy to me. How do you explain it when someone is ill and you pray for them, then they die? I think it makes no difference, but praying gets the credit when someone pulls through. Then again, if the ill person has the comfort of feeling as if some supernatural being is helping them, they are bound to be in higher spirits.

[smeagol]

I personally don't pray either. It may seem weird to you, because praying is what you know, but praying seems crazy to me.

It's not wierd. Irs consistant with your beliefs.

How do you explain it when someone is ill and you pray for them, then they die?

How do you explain when a cancer patient recieves quimio-therapy and still dies? It happens. Peayers are not the answer to everything. If it were so automatic (you pray, you save somebody's life), bielive me, there would be much more Christians walking around the streets.

I think it makes no difference, but praying gets the credit when someone pulls through.

The same as conventional medicine does.

[jochhejaam]

If he knows what will happen, then it can not be free will, as free will is not something that can exist concurrent with predestiny. If what you are going to do is already known, then how do you really have an independent choice. The only answer that could make sense to me, based on what you have said, is that he has a plan, but people have their choice on whether to follow the plan. This would also mean that he has no idea who will follow the plan.

There are things that don't make sense to us, things that are beyond the realm of human understanding, that are crystal clear to God. Our thinking is finite God's is not. If we know nothing about Him or about some of the things He says it's only natural that we are confused by what we hear.
It's like taking a course for the first time, one you know nothing about. You're not going to sit there and tell the professor he's stupid and that he isn't making any sense before he begins teaching or even before he's finished. If you're going to be able to grasp the entirety of what it is he's trying to convey you're going to have to pay close attention when the teaching or instructions are being given.


It's no different with God, if there are things about Him that seem hard or even impossible to fathom they will become clearer as you read what He has given to man in His Word. The more you read and meditate upon His Words the more likely it is that the mysteries of today are to become the revelations of tomorrow.

Ecclesiastes 7
24 Whatever wisdom may be, it is far off and most profound— who can discover it?

25 So I turned my mind to understand, to investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly.

[jochhejaam]

I personally don't pray either. It may seem weird to you, because praying is what you know, but praying seems crazy to me. How do you explain it when someone is ill and you pray for them, then they die? I think it makes no difference, but praying gets the credit when someone pulls through. Then again, if the ill person has the comfort of feeling as if some supernatural being is helping them, they are bound to be in higher spirits.

Hebrews 9:27
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

^^^We don't know when this "time to die" is, so we pray until the time that death becomes reality.






Who's to say that prayer hasn't saved someone from death? Many people are praying constantly for situations and for people. Lots of parents pray regularly that God will watch over their family members. Who can prove one way or the other that God has not answered these prayers and stayed the hand of death because of these prayers?

When it comes to prayer many people think that because they didn't see an immediate result or get an immediate answer that the prayer must not have been answered. I feel that God answers all of the prayers of His faithful and that sometimes the answer to our prayers is "yes", sometimes the answer is "no" and at other times the answer may be "not yet".

James 5:16 - The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man (woman) availeth much.

[smeagol]

Inquisition.

I need to get smarter on what happened during the Inquisition

Crusades.

Not sure what’s wrong with the Crusades. The Holy Land had been invaded and the Christians of the time decided to fight for it.

Conquistas of the Americas and Africa.

What you have to bear in mind is that all these things where done by men who are far from being perfect. These men did horrible things, sometimes in the name of the Church. That does not mean that the Church condoned what was being done, or that the Doctrine of the Church is wrong because of what fallible people do.

The whole Middle Ages period where the church was the richest ins ution in Europe

.
It is a big misconception to talk about the Church in the Middle Ages as if it was something evil. The Church was actually the one ins ution that kept alive many of the ancient traditions through the Middle Ages. They were the bridge between the ancient world and the Renaissance.

The behaviour during the 1776-1980 (it could be said that it remains today) period, when in fear of reason, science, democracy, capitalism, comunism, secular socities, atheism, etc. Because of that fear the church supported dictators, kings, assasins, etc...

Again, the Church is made up of men who make mistakes. That does not mean that the Doctrine of the Catholic Church, which is what’s important, is wrong.

But I don’t really agree with this last blanket statement. Maybe if you give me some examples where the Church, in fear of science, reason, democracy, capitalism, etc has sided with dictators and assassins.

[Jekka]

For those who don't believe.....who do you all pray to when hits the fan and you need for a loved one who is gravely ill or injured?

Or do you simply just not pray?

Just wondering.

My evolution of beliefs by no means have settled, but I do know for sure that after being completely saturated in Christian ideology for most of my life that I do not naturally embrace those philosophies. Sometimes I'd like to believe in a god - mostly so I have someone to blame things on - but as for prayers ... I pray out of habit sometimes when happens, but I also feel like no one's listening. Sometimes you just need to talk, and "hey, god" is a good excuse.

[JoeChalupa]

My evolution of beliefs by no means have settled, but I do know for sure that after being completely saturated in Christian ideology for most of my life that I do not naturally embrace those philosophies. Sometimes I'd like to believe in a god - mostly so I have someone to blame things on - but as for prayers ... I pray out of habit sometimes when happens, but I also feel like no one's listening. Sometimes you just need to talk, and "hey, god" is a good excuse.

I guess since I've known and believed in God all of my life it is hard for me to comprehend not praying or believing in a greater power.

So you'd like to believe in a God so you'll have someone to blame?
How about also someone to thank? No?
Many only pray when they are in need but not when things are going well.
We thank God everyday for our many blessings.

Also one must not tempt God through prayer for only God knows what his will is. I know it is a country song but, "some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers", and I believe that.

I also believe that Doctors and their great works could not be performed were it not for the gift given them from above.