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I always thought it was:
"Cuz the world don't groove to the beat of just one drum ..."
I don't think it's absurd at all. Every team has a character, determined in part by their history, the city they play in, the coach, and the individual cons uents of their team. For the Spurs, '04 is amazingly different from '03 because of the vacuum left by the departure of the the Top 50 HoFer Face of the Franchise and two of the key members of the Championship team from the year before. In the same vein, '06 is different from '05, but in a different way; the Spurs haven't lost anything (except TD's mobility and bank shot), but have instead added good things. The Pistons from '05 to '06, on the other hand, have changed just their coach; their roster is pretty much identical. The reason I started this thread was to figure out how much that coaching switch had changed the character of the team. Flip did not bring with him the character that a coach like Phil brings to a team, a fundamental change in the way the team views big games. He brought some X's and O's, and that has clearly made their offense better, but will his character affect them adversely in big games? I think it might.
I think it makes lots of sense to say that because the '05 Pistons couldn't execute in the fourth quarter of game 7 of the NBA Finals, the substantially similar '06 team won't be able to execute in a similar situation again. The character of the team hasn't changed to overcome that deficit, and I don't think (and granted, this is opinion here) that "motivation" or "determination" can make up for that. Barring injury or just exceptional luck one way or the other, another Spurs-Pistons Finals matchup is destined to go 7 games, and if you take this year's teams and put them in a tie game at the end of three in Game 7, history dictates that the character of this Spurs team makes them the favorite. Execution trumps determination.
Now I'm not sure if I really believe that, but it's Phil's mantra, and he's made both Kobe and Jordan buy into it, and he's got nine rings, so I'm willing to defer to his position. And using his rationale, the Spurs have to be the favorite, with all other things being equal (i.e. no big injuries or biased referring or whatever).
And I'm not really sure what exactly makes that "backward ass logic," but hopefully you will be able to explain it to me. Before you start slinging accusations around though, recognize that I didn't question the Pistons' heart or championship mettle; I in fact wrote "I think the Pistons have the heart to beat the Spurs." I think you missed my point, especially when you respond to my "Execution is all that matters" Kobe quote by saying that "it's not about will to win....It's about execution." I actually used "execution" and "will to power" synonymously, which might be confusing, but I think ultimately justified. But feel free to replace all the "will to..." language in my last post with "execute" and I'm sure you'll get my memaning.
I always thought it was:
"Cuz the world don't groove to the beat of just one drum ..."
If the Pistons get homecourt advantage and both the Pistons and Spurs are fortunate enough to get back to the finals, and the two teams are put in the same situation, but it is in the Palace of Auburn Hills, that does change things. Game 7 at the Palace does give the Pistons a decided advantage just like being in San Antonio in game 7 last year helped the Spurs.
It doesn't matter if you were talking about ONLY execution or ONLY will to win. My point in rebuttal is that it is neither factor by itself that determines the winner. MANY FACTORS contribute in deciding who ultimately wins. Execution is absolutely part of it. Will to win is absolutely a part of it. Lucky breaks are absolutely a part of it. Health is absolutely a part of it. Officiating is absolutely a part of it.
Your rant that put in a similar situation, the Pistons would fold in the final minutes of a game 7 situation is foolish for so many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that GAME 6 WAS A GAME 7 situation for the Pistons. Game 6 was an elimination game for the Pistons. It essentially was the same pressure. They did not fold then. And, while the Spurs were better in game 7, there were contributing factors such as coaching blunders and foul trouble that were also factors, not just execution in the fourth quarter.
It is foolish because you claim that the Pistons cannot close a championship, but they were able to do it the season before. The Pistons had game sevens against New Jersey and Miami over the last two years, and the Miami game 7 was IN MIAMI. Those were similar situations. And, the Pistons were able to "EXECUTE" and win those games.
It doesn't make sense because in the seven game series, both teams blew out the other, and both teams showed their grit and perseverence by winning key games on the road. Again, like I said earlier, your logic would lend me to believe that Michael Jordan would not be able to beat the Pistons in the 1991 playoffs, because he had always choked against the Pistons in the playoffs prior to that year, and his team and coaches were essentially the same as the previous two years. Phil Jackson had been coach since 1989. The Bulls lost to the Pistons in the playoffs the previous three years. So, how could the Bulls beat the Pistons in 1991??? Not by your logic. Oh, but the Bulls had homecourt advantage over the Pistons in 1991. Hmmmmmmm ... The Bulls got better even though there were no coaching changes or major roster changes. Hmmmmmm.
That's why your logic doesn't make sense. Every season is different. You cannot label or define a team by ONE fourth quarter of a game 7. It is not like the Pistons have lost three straight game sevens in the NBA finals. It's not like the Pistons haven't won an NBA championship already. It's not like they haven't performed in other fourth quarters of game sevens before. Your logic is misguided.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-05-2006 at 05:07 PM.
The man is 20-years-old with Three former All-NBA selections (Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess) infront of him. You say Sam Bowie, I say Jermaine O'Neal. The one knock against Joe Dumars is that he cannot draft high. Mateen Cleaves (14), Rodney White (9), and Darko Milicic (2). Find me another weakness. But my reply was about doing "more with less." So if he's wasting high draft picks, doesn't that actually make it more incredible that he built a perennial contender?
Joe Smith, Damon Jones, Antonio McDyess, Elden Campbell, Maurice Evans, Dale Davis, Corliss Williamson, Darvin Ham, Zeljko Rebraca, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, and Chucky Atkins are just some of the free agents Dumars has signed.
I'm sorry, I can't honestly accept this as an equalizer for having Tim Duncan. This isn't Major League Baseball where the Detroit Tigers can steal the Florida Marlins best player (Puge Rodriguez). A superstar big man who was Finals MVP in his second season or a snowy, cold city that has a cap on how much they can spend?
Dumars reputation as a nice guy got him a lot of credibility, I will admit. But that only was an asset because the Pistons reputation was so bad when he took over. If the Pistons didn't have rumors of too many cooks in the kitchen, manic personalities running the organization and they had the same results (from 1993-2000: 40 wins, 20 wins, 28 wins, 46 wins, 54 wins, 37 wins, 29 wins (of 50), 42 wins) he would just be another nice guy who couldn't build a team. Every great hero needs a foil, and the Pistons losing repuation was his foil.
Give it a week.
Some of Prince's highlights:
Tallying 12 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, and drawing two offensive fouls in an 8-minute stretch of a game seven in his rookie season. His career-high 20 points was exactly 1 point less than the man who played double the minutes and that he had to guard - Tracy McGrady.
After Chauncey Billups twists his ankle in the fourth quarter of the second round series of Prince's rookie season, Prince not only nails the game-tying shot to send the game into overtime, he scores 7 of the Pistons 12 points in ovetime to take a 2-0 series lead. Remember, the 23rd pick in his rookie season.
By the time the Eastern Conference Finals in 2003 begin, the Pistons playing the New Jersey Nets, Prince is the starter. He hasn't been out of the starting lineup since then.
In the five-game series in the first round of the 2004 playoffs, Prince averages 17.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.2 bpg, and 1.2 spg. That's not Andrei Kirilenko or Rasheed Wallace, that's the 23rd pick in the 2002 draft.
With the Pistons down 1-0 in the Conference Finals, and a shot on its way to be a tied ball game, Tayshaun makes the defensive compliment to Derek Fisher's 0.04 - the block on Reggie Miller.
The Pistons maintain that if not for Tayshaun Prince in the 2004-05 regular season, they do not win 54 games. His last-second dunk in overtime over Emeka Okafor for a 126-125. After the Utah, 64-62 game, the Pistons travel to Atlanta and need overtime to beat the Atlanta Hawks. Prince just happens to set his career high in points (31) and hits back-to-back jumpers to put the game out of reach.
This was a function of money. All the Pistons could extend Memo Okur were his early bird rights, the same number as the MLE. The Pistons had signed Okur to the standard 2nd-round pick contract which is 2 years long. The Pistons were maintaining financial flexibility to steal a talent of a salary-dumping team. The 2002 and 2003 teams were slightly over the cap in order to use the MLE, but the team went under every summer Dumars had room, including 2004. The cap space (Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, Lindsey Hunter) had been used to get Rasheed Wallace.
It was either Mehmet Okur or Rasheed Wallace. Dumars extended the largest monetary contract that he could (38 million) but the Jazz offered him a larger contract (50 million). It's not that the Pistons didn't believe in Okur, or didn't know he was good, the Pistons simply couldn't afford to keep him AND Rasheed. Who would you pick in an either/or situation? Dumars two weeks later signs Antonio McDyess. He then traded Corliss Williamson so that the Pistons wouldn't face this situation with Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince.
Relative obscurity? The Pistons finished the season winning 20 of their final 24 games (5 straight opponents under 70 points), they beat the Two-Time Conference Champion New Jersey Nets, the first team not in the Western Conference to do so since their reign began in 2002 (27-5 vs. East in playoffs), and beat the number one team in the league (61-win Indiana Pacers).
Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Corliss Williamson, Mike James, Mehmet Okur, Lindsey Hunter...Let's just say the Spurs would've had a team to deal with, just like they did last year.
Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.
But they got, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
Everybody's got a special kind of story
Everybody finds a way to shine,
It don't matter that you got not alot
So what,
They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine.
And together we'll be fine....
Because it takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
Yes it does.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
and with that, i have proved more about something than anyone else in this long, long thread that will not die.
i think the piss-tons shouldnt be takin any props for drafting okur, he panned out on the jazz, not the pisstons.
i think childish jokes involving urine are petty. they recognized his potential and drafted him. they chose not to keep him, that has nothing to do with evaluating his talent.
they should be kicking themselves in the head for letting him go so easily
I will say again: The Pistons knew what he was - director of foreign scouting Tony Ranzone has known Mehmet Okur since he was 15-years-old. He stuffed him in a league that no one scouts so that whatever team he worked for could draft him (at the time Dallas).
On draft day 2001, Dumars had a similar workout with Okur to his high-profile lottery-day Darko Milicic workout in New York. The Pistons immediately drafted him. The Pistons said before 2002-03 that he would be a "lottery pick" if Memo had come out a year later. They left him overseas for a year to see what he could do.
Larry Brown and Joe Dumars had a meeting with Memo shortly after the Rasheed trade that he still had a future with the team. The Pistons envisioned Darko and Memo as the twin towers of the future. Dumars took it hard when he left.
In his rookie season, Okur took over for Zelly Rebraca when he went down with heart palpatations in December of 2002. He was the Pistons seventh man, ahead of even Jon Barry and just as many minutes as Mike Curry, the Pistons starting small forward. The Pistons saw his combination of size, shooting, and skills as a more agile version of Bill Laimbeer. He had this patented fake at the foul line, put the ball on the floor and slam it home move. There's a strong Turkish presence in metro Detroit - he had his own cheering section.
The Oakland Press after the first preseason game he had put a headline up:
"Memo to Carlisle: Play Okur."
Memo contributed 18 points and 11 boards starting in place of Ben Wallace who was attending to the death of his mother just before the All-Star Break in 2003. This was a game where Tayshaun had 10 and 6, too.
Joe Dumars talked to the Detroit News afterwards and said: "How 'bout are rookies, huh?" He playfully added "Turns out these guys can play." It's partly Tayshaun Prince, but Mehmet Okur, too, that caused a lot of criticism for Rick Carlisle in this town.
With Ben Wallace sitting out the final 6 games of 2003 because of a knee injury suffered against the Spurs at the Palace, Mehmet Okur started in Wallace's place (10.2 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 1.71 apg, 1.71 bpg). The Pistons played a double-overtime game in Memphis clinched back-to-back Division les since 1989 and 1990. If not for Memo (13 points, 12 rebounds) hitting two huge threes in the first overtime, the Pistons don't win that game. His free throws iced the game that gave the Pistons the number one seed in the Conference.
In early 2003-04, in 26 MINUTES, Okur overcame a 3-11 shooting night to grab 18 REBOUNDS and 4 BLOCKED SHOTS.
To which Memo quipped: ''This was my dream come true. I had more rebounds than Ben (Wallace had 15),'' Okur said. ``I just felt great tonight. I've been pushing myself very hard, and I feel like I brought us a lot of energy tonight.''
For the 30 games or so before the Rasheed Wallace trade, the Pistons starting center was Mehmet Okur. He was a power forward, however, and that is why the Rasheed transaction was made. It's also why LB was forcing Darko Milicic to learn the center position - the power forward of the future was Mehmet Okur.
The Pistons knew who he was, and they knew what they lost the day he signed with the Jazz. Because Rasheed Wallace accounts for 18 million in 2003-04, his contract accounts for double that until he's re-signed to a contract or his bird rights are waived. If the Pistons waive Rasheed's bird rights, they could've matched Okur's offer, but it would mean the Pistons would have to sign Rasheed Wallace with the 4.4 million dollar Mid-Level Exception, the same financial package a place like New York or Philadelphia could offer him.
It was Mehmet Okur or Rasheed Wallace. Today, from a defensive standpoint, I would still choose Rasheed if in Dumars' position.
Last edited by Darrin; 02-06-2006 at 02:33 AM.
If re-signing Robert Horry meant you would not be able to keep Tim Duncan, would you have the Spurs re-sign Robert Horry???
That's why the Pistons let Mehmet Okur go to the Jazz. If the Pistons had spent the money Utah offered Okur, they would have not had enough cap space to re-sign Rasheed Wallace. Dumars felt Rasheed Wallace was more important to the success of the team than Mehmet Okur. Dumars still wish he could have kept both. But, those are the type of tough decisions a good GM has to make in the salary cap era of the NBA.
The Pistons knew what Memo was. I remember Michael Curry saying from day 1 he'd be an all-star. He clearly showed early on that he was going to be a very good player. There were a few problems though...
1. Larry Brown hated him. At the time, he was supposed to be our coach for a few more years, and they didn't get along. Larry would DNP him for absolutely no reason at all at random times.
2. With Ben and Sheed here he knew his chances of being are starter was zero. Sheed was re-signed for 5 years, and Ben is a lifer.
3. $$$. We didn't have the cash to sign him to a big time deal the same summer as re-signing Rasheed, and the summer before extending Ben Wallace, and Tayshaun.
4. Darko was/is the future. He was the priority
This is just a minor point, but no one has mentioned it yet, so I think I'll throw it in.
A lot of us are criticizing Dumars for letting Okur go in free agency. Some people respond that it's what he had to do in light of the Pistons' other financial obligations. And that's a valid point. But one thing that makes Buford better is that he never puts himself in a position where he has to let go of an amazing prospect in order to re-sign his other players. (Of course Buford let Brown go, but, as much as I love him, Brown <<<< Okur). Buford looks far into the future, knows who's going to command what kind of contract at what point in time, and plans for it. He doesn't get stuck in situations where he loses the 7th man on a championship team with a bright future to free agency because "we can't offer him enough money." He let SJax go to Atlanta, and the reasons for that are similar to what you guys have been saying about Mehmet, but Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, and I think that losing SJax didn't hurt as much as losing Okur. I mean, Pistons last year with Okur would have smoked the Spurs. Plus, I think it always says something about a player and an organization when they choose to go somewhere else because of minutes and money. But again, this is just a minor point. Props to Dumars for bringing Okur in in the first place.
mcdyess was pretty good vs us last year, i wouldn't say they would have smoked us with okur instead... and sjax would not have wanted to be off the bench to let menu start
Your point has some merit, but then again, after losing Stephen Jackson, the following season, the Spurs lost in the conference semi-finals. After losing Mehmet Okur, the Pistons went back to the NBA Finals, and the following year have the best record in the league at the halfway point of the season.
How you laud Buford is similar to how Pistons fans praise Joe Dumars. You state Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, well, Joe Dumars was prepared to lose Okur as well. He had scouted Antonio McDyess the entire 2003-04 season and nabbed him with the MLE. Last year McDyess had a better playoffs than Okur did in the previoius season.
And, losing Okur was more of a product of the the old CBA than the preparation of Joe Dumars. Second round draft picks could be signed by other teams more easily because the teams that drafted them couldn't go way over the cap to re-sign them. They didn't have their Bird rights after two years. Now, suppose that Denver offered Ginobili an outrageous contract that the Spurs couldn't afford. It would have been a similar situation. The Spurs let Stephen Jackson go in order to keep Manu Ginobili. The Pistons did not want to let Rasheed Wallace go. When Utah offered Mehmet over $50 million, it was a done deal. A combination of the structure of the CBA, Mehmet's decision to take the better deal, and Joe Dumars' decision to keep Rasheed Wallace. GMs make tough decisions all the time. While keeping Mehmet Okur would have been nice, it was not feasible and yet the Pistons have been just fine anyway.
In two years, Buford will have some problems with his salary cap as well, when only three of his players (Duncan, Parker, Manu) will make over $38 million, when the salary cap will be at about $52. All NBA GMs face the problem sooner or later. The Pistons will be in a simlar situation when they have to re-sign Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups.
I can understand the criticism that Joe Dumars was unable to keep Mehmet Okur if you don't understand that the Pistons financially could not make it happen. The Spurs were very fortunate that David Robinson retired when the Spurs needed to re-sign a Manu Ginobili. Some good planning, but also good fortune.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-07-2006 at 05:26 PM.
Before I reply to this, I would like to reiterate that we are talking about the league's two best GMs, and arguing over who's better. So for as much effort as I put into defending Joe Dumars, I would defend Buford with the same forceful intent if they were attempting to say Rod Thorn was better. I have a great deal of respect for Buford and what he's done with the Spurs.
The situation, if you look at it, the Pistons were prepared for Okur's signing up until February 19, 2004. This was a short-term risk. The Pistons had traded Cliff Robinson with 5 million left on his deal, and Mike Curry with 3 million left on his deal for two expiring contracts (Bob Sura and Lindsey Hunter) the previous summer. The Pistons also had Zeljko Rebraca coming off the books, another 4.5 million.
This would've given the Pistons a good nine million in cap space factoring in salary increases, more than enough to match Utah's offer of 50 million dollars over six years.
Dumars gambled to make his team a Championship contender with Rasheed Wallace instead of waiting for Memo to fully develop, which he still hasn't done. Losing Okur to get that done was a risk he had to take or watch the season flushed down the toilet (34-22, 6 losses in 7 games before Rasheed). He actually used Okur as a reason that Jon Barry wasn't brought back into the fold in the summer of 2003 - Barry wasn't going to play on a one-year deal, and he wanted too much money.
The Pistons have been planning for Ben Wallace's free agency for some time now. The Corliss Williamson for Derrick Coleman and Amal McCaskill deal from a year ago last August, two players that played a sum total of 5 games for the Pistons, happened to clear cap space for numbers 3 and 22. They signed out of the bargain bin this past summer with Maurice Evans (4-years, 7.5 million) and Dale Davis (2 years, 4.2 million) when guys like Michael Finley and especially Latrell Sprewell were making overatures to join the team.
Drafting Darko Milicic was the most forward-thinking move of Dumars' career. He wasn't looking for a compliment to Ben Wallace, he saw a replacement for him. Amir Johnson, Mr. Basketball in California last season, has played only 4 minutes this year; he's riding the pine with Darko and Jason Maxiell. When you look down that bench, you don't see washed-up veterans like a Christian Laettner or a Charles Oakley. You see young, 19- to 22-year-old players that are growing up in a farm system the likes of Indiana in the late 1990s (Jonathan Bender, Al Harrington, Jeff Foster, Brimoz Brezec, Austin Croshere).
And all this crying over Memo Okur, 48-hours after he left, Antonio McDyess signed on the dotted line, a move that gave the Pistons more cap flexibility (he's getting half of Memo's salary and allowed Williamson, 18 million over 3 years, to come off the books).
Responding to that point, we'll forget about the 7 foot tall question mark that is Darko Milici and instead assume that he will turn out to be a J. O'Neal type player instead of a Sam Bowie or Kwame Brown type player. I think there are many problems with drafting someone this high as a long term project. For one, how long will he put up with being the 12th man? Wouldn't he rather play for a team that will pay him more and guarantee (many) more minutes? Won't that influence his free agency decisions, or possibly cause him to demand a trade? Now I know that it was Portland that gave up on JO and not the other way around, but the essential point is that it took a change of scenery and a great (ex-Piston) coach to turn him into the player he has become. Dice and Sheed are both on at least two more years (although the last year of Dice's contract is player option), so where are Darko's minutes going to come from? Plus, Darko still has two more years left on his contract ($5.2 mil and $6.8 mil), and that's $1 million dollars per minute per game. How long before the Pistons realize that the cost-benefit analysis doesn't favor keeping Darko around?
Not to knock Dumars, because I don't really think he's re ed for making this gamble, but I definitely think it's very risky; not only is Darko's "upside" or "ceiling" or whatever extremely uncertain, it is questionable whether he will even be around if he ever develops into a player that could possibly replace Ben Wallace. If he becomes a dominant big man, and if he stays with the Pistons, Dumars will be seen as a genius. But those are two pretty big "if"s, and based on the his progress so far and the free agent climate of the NBA, I don't think it's likely that everything will pan out in Detroit's favor.
I guess drafting Darko is technically a "forward-thinking move," but maybe the problem is that it's looking too far into the future. It's not like Manu Ginobili, who was drafted in '99 and given three years to develop in the "minor leagues" while his rights were retained by the Spurs, then brought in and integrated over two years to fill a hole in the starting lineup. Darko rode the pine for two years under LB (4.7 mpg and 6.9 mpg), and is still riding the pine this year (5.7 mpg). When is he going to develop his game? When is he going to be a contributor in the lineup? Two years from now? Three? More? Is there any guarantee that the Pistons will be able to retain his rights that long? Or will he ache for money and minutes and jump ship? Will he want to live up to his billing on a tier team where he can play more often? Will he get a chip on his shoulder about not being given a chance in Detroit? These are all very important questions, and it would take some extraordinary cir stances for Darko to prove all the critics wrong and reveal Dumars to be a genius.
But, you know, time will tell.
Flip = Flop
nuff said.
Why would Spurs fans be more scared of him than Larry Brown - give me a break. Possessions slow down in the post-season. If Pistons win it will be inspite of him period.
And Pistons are beggining to crumble...
Everyone is dismissing the Cavs, who could in fact play a huge part in the East. Lebron is rolling along with 30 plus almost every night. The Cavs have the same number of divisional wins as the Pistons. The Cavs just put an end to the Nets big winning streak.
If I was the Pistons, and I was going to worry about someone in my conference, I think right now it would be the Cavs.
Yeah, I know, Lebron hasn't proved he is playoff ready yet, but the second half of the season, he, like Mello, seems to have brought his game up another notch in the maturing department.
To you ...
Beginning to crumble = A 25 point blowout of an in-conference and in-division rival playing for playoff position
You sure?
They don't play defense, and that's why the Pistons don't fear them. Because they won't stop Tayshaun from going for 17 a night, Chauncey for 20 and Rip for 25.
Name me the last time the Pistons had an edge in playoff experience and lost the series. It hasn't happened with this squad. They lost to the Celtics in 2002 when it was a tossup, the Nets in 2003 when they had been to the Finals the year before, and the Spurs in 2005.
Meanwhile, very talented but inexperienced teams like Miami and Indiana, the Pistons have handled them.
It's not just their run, or talent, or scheme, it's all of those things combined with experience that make the Nets more imposing than the Cavaliers. The simple fact they are there is enough for them. Everything else is gravy, and they will be elated if they win a series. Teams have a tendency to relax when they reach a certain point and face their first adversity after fulfilling their goals.
Oh yeah we're royally crumbling
Pistons are folding up like a house of cards now. I hope they can hold on and make the playoffs.
Me too. I'm really worried about this team. I think they are only going to win 65 games this season, and that's only 2 more games than the franchise mark. I thought they were headed for 70 wins and 7 more than the franchise record. This team sucks. I want Larry Brown and Corliss Williamson back.
We just haven't been the same since Darko left.
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