it's not that difficult to understand. Here's an analogy to help you understand.
Let's say you are driving through a school zone going 60 mph and you get arrested. The fine is more money than you can afford, but someone you don't even know pays the fine for you.
Jesus will pay the fine for our transgressions if we accept it.
As a Christian you appreciate the gift you have been given and with the help of the holy spirit you will have the strength to overcome sins that lead to death.
To extend on that analogy.... and to help answer your question clambake... Jesus died for all sins... unfortunately not everyone accepts this gift.... some people reject it. As such, they will end up having to pay the price of their own sin... the price is 'death'... eternal separation from GOD.
... but if I drink a cheap beer and go hmmmm? ... it's off to I go.
I wish God would give you another clue.Be careful what you wish for...
How's that?
Jesus drank wine.... consuming alcohol in and of itself is not a sin...
Abusing alcohol is... you are still responsible for your actions even if under the influence...
Eh, drinking a cheap beer is a perfectly reasonable way to relax after raping babies... I don't think you could be blamed.
You said it not me... "Put me in prison and I'd believe in God, because he would represent the best option available."
so I said, "be careful what you wish for..."
Despite your sarcasm, I still believe that God can hear me.
Just as I wouldn't attribute all the henious acts of Christians or members of any faith to that faith as a whole. I never said that all Christians were criminals.
Of course - the statistic isn't that there are 37 times the number of Christians in jail as there are Atheists. In fact, the Christians outnumber atheists 401 to 1 in jail. And the inmates are surveyed upon their enterance to prison - so that eliminates the "converted in prison" dilemma. Maybe they converted on their way to the courthouse though. My work was peer reviewed by theoretical economists and econometricians alike - you aren't going to get me on a silly statistical error.Did you apply a statistical ANOVA test?? that is, did you correct the percentages of your results by the ratio of Christians and Atheists not in jail. And factor out whether or not many became Christians while riding out their prison terms...
First of all... link? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to read it since this is obvious a topic of interest for me.There are other studies (conducted by Prison Fellowship ministries) that show that the recidivism rates for a sample pool of about 700,000 inmates ministered by the program was markedly less than the rate for those not ministered. That sort of study takes out the 'intangible' question of whether or not the person actually 'converted' and simply sets out to show whether or not the program was having a meaningful impact on the lives of the ministered...
The lone variable in question was... after leaving prison, did the person fall back to his old habits and end up in jail again or did they reinsert themselves back into society without criminal relapse?
Naturally, I would expect that the people who make an effort to "get into their faith" to be less prone to repeating a crime than those who don't, just as I'd expect those people who choose to pursue an education versus those who do not. I suspect the difference is in the sentiment, not in the faith. I would be curious to compare the reincarceration rates for those in these programs versus the self identified atheists.
As I've said before, the study is not to say that people commit crimes because they are Christian or Theist, but that being one doesn't make one any less prone to bad behavior. The demographics of atheists (higher average levels of education, higher average incomes) indicate causality more so than religious preference.
Sorry, that's a non-starter for me. Sounds akin to saying "you aren't as good as Johnny because you aren't Johnny." You've done nothing to explain why Johnny is inherently better.
I'll leave others to judge who and who isn't in the stringent believer club. All I do is define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and son of God. They degree to which someone is a proper Christian is beyond my realm of interest.With that being said, your definition of stringent believers sounds more libral than the bible's definition.
stringent believers genuinely repent of their sins, turn from their sins, and try their best to be led by the Holy Spirit.
Here's what the bible has to say about so-called Christians who continue in the ways of the world.
1 John 3:
8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
No one is good. The difference between you and someone of faith is the someone of "true" faith has forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ.Sorry, that's a non-starter for me. Sounds akin to saying "you aren't as good as Johnny because you aren't Johnny." You've done nothing to explain why Johnny is inherently better.
There's no debate, it's spelled out in the bible. The devil believes in Jesus Christ but it doesn't make him a Christian.I'll leave others to judge who and who isn't in the stringent believer club. All I do is define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and son of God. They degree to which someone is a proper Christian is beyond my realm of interest.
ROMANS 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. - Romans 5 (NIV)
17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. - Romans 5 (NIV)
We all start out on equal footing having an intrinsic, engendered sin nature common to all from birth. We're all in the same boat and the idea is to get to the "promised land". We can say that there is an impassable gulf of water that divides us on the boat from that promised land. Because of their love for their creation God sent his Son who willingly became our sacrifice on the Cross, through this sacrifice Christ paid the price for mans sins and bridged the gulf that separates mankind from the promised land.
The difference between you and Johnny is that he has freely accepted the fact that Christ is the Saviour of the World and because of this has been rescued from the boat and has been lifted over the expanse that separates us from the "promised land", also known as eternal life.
The bridge can be traversed by any and all who choose to do so.
Narrow definition of a Chrstian, IMHO. It's like defining a philosopher as someone who read one of Aristotles' works.
And this is why your study's conclusions do not mean much (please don't get all aggressive on me for saying this).
I used to believe the Bible but then I found it difficult to stone myself to death.
I've already told you that the statistical error IS the very basis of who you've defined to be a Christian. Particularly because you are using this criteria to say that "Christians are 37 times more likely to end up in jail than an athiest".... Faith is not one that can be simply stated... it is one that is lived out... which is why the sentiment stuff is extraneous. The way GOD sees it, according to HIS scripture, either you live like a Christian or you don't...
But whatever... you are inclined to believe whatever you want... just remember that one day (whether you choose to believe it or not) you will face divine justice... and you will be held accountable for 'smearing' the Name of Jesus Christ...
For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.
Last edited by hegamboa; 06-02-2006 at 01:27 PM.
You say I will be held accountable for "smearing" the name of Jesus Christ? I just need more than words in some book to convince me. Your retort will be for me to read some passage in that fairy tale. How does one admit that parts of this book are not true but think that some parts are? Don't you realize how that makes you sound? I truly do not mean anything personal, but could you please start using the brain that you say God gave you? The new testament? What, you mean forget that horse that came first?
When did one admit that?How does one admit that parts of this book are not true but think that some parts are? Don't you realize how that makes you sound?
Believe what you want, man. If you think it's a fairy tale, that's your prerogative. You clearly see faith as some kind of mental weakness, and if that's the case you should probably stay away for the time being and not risk damaging your ego.
I've already stated somewhere on this thread... if not already stated in multiple parts of this forum... that I believe the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of GOD.
The Old Testament from Genesis, and other books including Ezekiel, Daniel, Zachariah, Isaiah.. all point to Jesus Christ. I'm not discounting, or ignoring the Old Testament at all... it is essential in describing what Christ's purpose is.
The study's conclusion are that being a Christian, as I have defined it, doesn't necessarily make you a good person. Atheists, who don't believe that Christ was anything more than a guy with some nice sentiments (if that), manage to behave themselves socially without having to go through the rigors of faith. The conclusion is that maybe it isn't being a "good" Christian that makes people good - but the factors which good Atheists and good Christians have in common. Of course, that defeats a large basis of the Christian faith, so I wouldn't expect you to agree with that.
So, I'll ask... why is it Atheists manage to stay out of jail?
Maybe the statistical error is your inability to definitions set forth without interjecting your own and getting fussy about them. If believing in God is what it takes for you to be a good person, then I continue to encourage your religious beliefs. Just keep in mind that some of us don't need them to live a moral lifestyle.
But whatever... you are inclined to believe whatever you want... just remember that one day (whether you choose to believe it or not) you will face divine justice... and you will be held accountable for 'smearing' the Name of Jesus Christ...
For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.
Okay fine. One day you will be held accountable for preaching against the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Booga booga.
It isn't like that at all, smeagol. Aristotle isn't the basis for the entire field of philosophy, but Jesus Christ is the basis for Christianity.
I think it's more like defining a Darwinist as someone who believes in the works of Darwin.
whottt?
does bob stoopes know about this?
Not according to your friends in this thread.
About 5.4 million results for this search... care to help me out with a link to the actual study?For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.
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