IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[fyatuk]

How do you expect anybody to take you serious with stupidass statements like that? How about the flipside of that arguement, what would Shaq do with Duncan? Really kind of pointless to talk about the what ifs and could ofs.

Considering you haven't come up with a coherent argument as to why Shaq is better than Robinson, I'm not surprised you'd say that.

Also, the Spurs would obviously have been worse with Shaq and Duncan as opposed to Robinson and Duncan. Shaq would have to be the low post man which would have seriously reduced Duncan's effectiveness. The Spurs also would have had a much worse defense. With Robinson and Duncan you had 2 players who could flip between high and low posts, with one awesome straight up defender in Robinson, and one of the better help defenders in Duncan. No comparison there.

The point is Robinson was the better player. IMO it's not even a stretch to say the Lakers would have been better with him than Shaq.

[fyatuk]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).

I think just about everyone has said Hakeen was #1 (except a few Shaq lovers). I don't think I've seen anyone rank Robinson over Hakeem. So why would we hate you for saying something we've basically already agreed to.

[whottt]

It's hard not to put Hakeem right behind Wilt and Kareem...Hakeem beat every C of his era pretty convincingly in one on one matchups in the post season, his career numbers are phonomenal and his regular season highs and versatility are unmatched by anyone other than Drob, Wilt and Kareem...I'll say it right now, Drob couldn't stop Hakeem in that series...the problem I have always had with the Hakeem backers is they don't realize that Hakeem would have had similar problems stopping Drob had he been forced to guard him...he wasn't. He didn't, he guarded Rodman and he had better teamates.

Go ahead and put Hakeem ahead of Drob and Shaq...you can't argue against him, but there is no way he's in a totally different class of C than David Robinson...they were really closely matched despite Hakeem's game being one of technique and skill and Drob's being speed and athleticism. And they were always fun matchups to watch between, IMO, the two most versatile bigmen to ever step foot on the court.

[RC's Boss]

It's a forum, it was my way of apologizing in advance to my fellow spurs fans. Remember, this is all fun, we don't make any personell descisions w/ any of these teams. Be serious when you work, this is play!

[Brutalis]

2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. David Robinson
6. Patrick Ewing
1. Tim Duncan
4. Hakeem Olajawon
5. Kevin Garnett

[RC's Boss]

I agree on the versatility. Tim like Kareem is the standard of finesse and he's clutch as evident in '04 B4 the .4 B.S. The thing that made Shaq great was not only his power, but also the quickness in which he "was" able to move w/ that power. I do believe his jock is being ridden a little too much now though at this stage in his career w/ these announcers. He's still strong but waaaaaaay too slow.

[RC's Boss]

Can't put Garnett over Ewing, I can't put him in the top 10!

[bobbyjoe]

This is another post that is impossible to answer on who is best. But I'd just like to point out to all of the Kevin McHale bashers out there, that though McHale was in the shadow of Larry Bird throughout his career, he had some the best low post moves of any big man I have ever seen.

Some could argue that Kareem was the best at the low post. In his early career he had an array of moves, but practically never needed them later on because of his "sky hook". I saw some videos of him (as Lew Alcindor) against Wilt (in his later years) and he absolutely dominated Chamberlain. Even Wilt has said that Kareem was the only one he felt, "I really needed some help to guard."

Some would say O'Neal is the best because of his power (the strongest of them all), but before he turned 30 could also be deceptively quick. His sudden spin moves on the low block in his Orlando and early Laker years was incredible for his size. For all his power and speed, he also had a soft touch (not noticed that much since he pounds it in when he can) around the basket and great foot coordination (brining down the ball on fast breaks at times) as compared to Kareem, Ewing, and Olajuwon, who couldn't bring the ball down the court if their life depended on it. But now in his later years he relies more on his strength.

Duncan doesn't have the vast array of moves as Hakeem or McHale, but he makes up for it in terms of no wasted movement, and his ability to read defenses and break them down by passing out of them at correct times. He reminds me a lot of Larry Bird in that sense, being able read the floor and judge assignments correctly to take advantage of offensive situations. He also is underrated as one of the stronger big men in the league.

Of all the big men mentioned, Robinson is the best player facing the basket, getting by defenders easily. He's basically SF in a C's body. And nobody (not even Hakeem) was as fast as he was running at full speed on fastbreaks. He also had supreme defensive instincts. Hakeem was the better shotblocker, but Robinson was the better all around defender, as in his prime, he was the NBA's supreme athlete. As he got older, the speed began to ebb, and so did his effectiveness.

The catalyst for Hakeem's moves was his "dream shake" (which Sports Illustrated deemed the greatest signature basketball move of all time). It wasn't as effective as the "sky hook", but it was totally unpredictable, as each mini-shift could result in a step-through, a fade-away, or hook shot. Whatever he chose to do after it, it pretty much always resulted in a defender locked in place, or jumping out of his shoes.

McHale didn't have a "dream shake" to rely on. I've seen him play in his prime, and I have never seen a player with the same amount of moves and countermoves (only Hakeem comes close). In terms of basic fundamentals of post play, Duncan and Kareem are the only ones I've seen who execute in the same way McHale did, but only McHale could roll out those moves in succession (he's got the best up and under of the bunch).

I really like the points you make, but I would say DUncan is much more adept at the power game than McHale, yet had less of a repertoire in terms of quan y of moves. I agree Duncan's strength and passing are both underrated. Duncan's passes are with more purpose than arguably all of the people on this list.

Regarding Hakeem, I don't think he relied on the turnaround as much as many seem to remember him. That was maybe only 20-30% of his game. He was as sick as DRob running the break, had a jump hook which was money, and really good midrange touch. I would also highly question DRob being a better overall defender, given:

1) Hakeem won 2 DPOY awards to DRob's 1
2) Hakeem had a ton more steals than DRob
3) Hakeem blocking more shots than DRob
4) Hakeem not getting lit up by anyone the way DRob was lit up in 95.

I would say that out of all the guys, DRob probably defended O'Neal the best out of anyone in the group, Hakeem included, but overall Hakeem was better defensively and offensively.

I highly question anyone's basketball knowledge who thinks Hakeem wasn't fast. Remember that block on Rod Strickland in the playoffs when he chased him down despite spotting him 25 feet? The guy was just as fast as David Robinson. His quickness was probably his greatest asset. This idea that he was some McHale who relied purely on skill is ludicrous.

You don't become the only Center in NBA history to rank in the top 10 in both blocks and steals alltime without being extremely fast and quick. That's just pure common sense.

[DirkAB]

LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any cir stances...

Well, as long as you admit it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

No...Shaq is a not a better passer than David, Hakeem is not a better passer than David, Duncan is not a better passer than David, Ewing is not a better passer than David. David once lead the Spurs in assists and averaged 4.8 per game. No one else on the list except for Garnett even comes close to that.

You go find the list of C's that have lead their team in assists and averaged 4.8 or more per game...it's a short list.

They didn't double team Shaq because Shaq's point guard was first team all NBA...his PF was a 3 time NBA champion All Star, All NBA Defense...who could do more than just rebound, unlike Davids, and because he was surrounded by 3 point shooters. David, OTOH, had a PG hit one playoff 3 pointer in his 20 year career and who was stretching his range anytime he wasn't taking a layup,....

You couldn't just foul Drob...because he was a good FT shooter, and speed kills. All these other guys could be guarded somewhat effectively by one man because they weren't faster than most of the point guards in the NBA, unlike David Robinson. You had to double team DRob...you couldn't foul him, and you couldn't stay in front of him with one man defensively. And Drob was just as capable of throwing to an open man as any one...it's the open man that was the difference...

Shaq = ALL NBA First team PG
Drob = PG who made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career...and don't act like he had a shot from any closer either.

This is not brain surgery.


Drob lead the NBA in dunks 3 times and FTA a butt load of times...and he didn't do it by offensive fouling his way to the basket like Shaq...he did it by blowing mother ers off the court.

Did you guys just watch what happened when Duncan, 7 time all NBA D tried to guard Dirk?

David Robinson was of a lot faster than Dirk...watch what happens when Shaq gets isoed on Dirk in this series...and Hakeem wasn't that fast either. He was fast for a big man...but Drob was ing fast period.

It's not hard to figure this stuff out.


Repeat the after me:
Tony Parker>AJ
Manu>Vinny
Kobe
Penny
Dwayne
Drexler
Cassell>>>>

Those higher assist stats are partly due to DRobs unselfish nature. In fact, wasn't that one of the knocks against him...he deferred too much?

I do agree DRob's supporting cast was very average.

As for the rest, I don't know what you're rambling about. Sorry.

[bobbyjoe]

Don't be deleting this ...and don't be saying you're a Lakerfan either...you fool no one, bobby joe.



You must be 12 or on crack if you think Hakeem was a fast as David was...

He was not as fast as David was...he was post up bigman.

You can say Hakeem was more skilled all you want...and you'd be accurate about that, but he wasn't as fast as Drob, and I'll give you a long argument on which was the better athlete...David Robinson's entire career was due to his athleticism...

This is why he was the first guy in NBA history to block over 300 shots per season his first 3 years in the NBA...

This is why he and Jordan are the only guys to lead the NBA in scoring and be a DPOY.

It took Hakeem years to develop his game to the level he finally did...he wasn't an outstanding shotblocker when he first came into the NBA...it took him years to do it...

He was tutored by Moses Malone on hus offensive game as well.

David Robinson sat on his butt for 2 years in the NBA came into the league and blocked over 300 ing shots.

All David had to do was step foot on the court...Hakeem had to work at it. And Hakeem's game was very much due to yearly improvement, great footwork and fundamental play.

Statistically they were freaks...but the similarities end there.








This is bull ...first game I actually saw them play together Drob held ing Hakeem 6 points...he was like a rookie or a second year player.

Their matchups were totally dictated by whether or not Hakeem got in foul trouble...if Hakeem stayed out of foul trouble, he'd have a good game and it was good for the Rockets...if he didn't...then Rockets were in trouble.

The Rockets knew this nature of their matchup...and that's why they were prepared for it in those playoffs.


And don't give me this about the regular season not mattering...

Smack dab middle of Hakeem's career a healthy Hakeem didn't even make the ing playoffs and his ass got swept a ton of times too..

His ass wasn't even on the court the first time the Rockets went to the finals...Ralph Sampson hit the shot to put them there.


Oh yeah...Hakeem played with Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen...and he got his bounced from the playoffs...and don't give me that he was old either...Drob was old when he started winning les.


Live by the playoffs, die by the playoffs.

This idea that Robinson had no skill and Hakeem's game was all about skill is getting vastly overstated.

Robinson had a very deadly face-up mid range jumper up to about 16 feet. If you played off him too much, he'd stick it consistently.

Robinson was also an excellent passing big man. When Duncan came to town, his ability to feed the post and run the high-low really showed how great of a passer he was.

Robinson also had a better handle than Hakeem. Hakeem's rapid decline in his late 30's also shows that his game relied more on athleticism than many seem to acknowledge. Once those quicks were gone, it was a different story. You seem to be describing Hakeem as a Tim Duncan, a guy who's game was purely about skill and average athleticism. This is just not the case at all.

I do remember Hakeem really having trouble with David early in David's career and the 6 point game in fact. Robinson really affected him. At that stage of their careers, DRob usually fared quite well in the matchups. Then in 93 Hakeem started to reach another level and really just took Robinson apart in the rest of their "in prime" matchups, esp the 95 series. He attained a level DRob just didnt have in him. But it's not a slight to DRob because the same happened to Ewing and O'Neal. It was more Hakeem excelling than Robinson sucking.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.

[strangeweather]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.

Actually, I think that's kind of Whott's point. If old DRob = old Hakeem with different outcomes due to playing with different guys around him, and Hakeem's supporting cast when they were younger >>> David's, how do you say Hakeem was really better then?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Actually, I think that's kind of Whott's point. If old DRob = old Hakeem with different outcomes due to playing with different guys around him, and Hakeem's supporting cast when they were younger >>> David's, how do you say Hakeem was really better then?

Other than Hakeem violating DRob in the playoffs?

[The Genius]

I suggest people take a look at this considering the topic of great bigs...


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=113281

[flipcritic]

I suggest people take a look at this considering the topic of great bigs...


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=113281

God I remember that bbs. I was a member of it during my pre-Duncan/Olajuwon days. But that bbs soon turned spoiled as soon as the Rockets won their championships, and expected that it was their right to win it every year since. The last 10 years has been humbling for its members. Most have them are just outright nasty so I left.

That is my worst fear for SPURSTALK, is that after the moment of championship glory, the fans get spoiled and think it's their right to be contenders every year, which is at most a blessing.

I understand of course that fans will be fans. But it's good to step back and see that a team winning a championship is no team's birthright (not even if you're a Celtic fan). Out of 30 teams, one team getting a championship is both miracle and the result of team dedication. I'd hate to see this forum turnning into CLUTCHFANS.

[flipcritic]

I really like the points you make, but I would say DUncan is much more adept at the power game than McHale, yet had less of a repertoire in terms of quan y of moves. I agree Duncan's strength and passing are both underrated. Duncan's passes are with more purpose than arguably all of the people on this list.

Regarding Hakeem, I don't think he relied on the turnaround as much as many seem to remember him. That was maybe only 20-30% of his game. He was as sick as DRob running the break, had a jump hook which was money, and really good midrange touch. I would also highly question DRob being a better overall defender, given:

1) Hakeem won 2 DPOY awards to DRob's 1
2) Hakeem had a ton more steals than DRob
3) Hakeem blocking more shots than DRob
4) Hakeem not getting lit up by anyone the way DRob was lit up in 95.

I would say that out of all the guys, DRob probably defended O'Neal the best out of anyone in the group, Hakeem included, but overall Hakeem was better defensively and offensively.

I highly question anyone's basketball knowledge who thinks Hakeem wasn't fast. Remember that block on Rod Strickland in the playoffs when he chased him down despite spotting him 25 feet? The guy was just as fast as David Robinson. His quickness was probably his greatest asset. This idea that he was some McHale who relied purely on skill is ludicrous.

You don't become the only Center in NBA history to rank in the top 10 in both blocks and steals alltime without being extremely fast and quick. That's just pure common sense.

I agree with you that Duncan relies more on power than McHale, as Kevin is nowhere near as strong.

But I (respectfully) disagree with Hakeem being quicker than Robinson. I absolutely worshipped Olajuwon before I came across Duncan, and whenever I saw Hakeem and Robinson together, it seemed that DRob was just slightly (just a weeeee bit) quicker than Hakeem. I always felt Robinson could guard PGs if he wanted to unlike Olajuwon. Nonetheless, both were the best defensive centers of the 90s.

Perhaps we can simply agree that in terms of speed, Hakeem and DRob are freaks compared to the rest of the bunch.

[venitian navigator]

Artis!!!
When he was in his prime (ABA) he was really a beast...stronger than O'Neal and not so "gentle" like he's been after (If I remember well, when he came here he was already more than 30 years old and had a knee injury)!

[whottt]

Those higher assist stats are partly due to DRobs unselfish nature. In fact, wasn't that one of the knocks against him...he deferred too much?

Um...the same year he did that he lead the NBA in scoring, becoming the first C to do that in about 25 years or so.

The reason he lead had such high assists totals that year was because his PG that year was a bad 2rd string 2 guard on just about any other team in the NBA...otherwise known as Vinny Del Negro.

You were saying? Scoring itle...lead the team in assists. Same year. Also became the 4th player in NBA history to break 70 points in a game, the 4th to record a quadruple double, and the 3rd in NBA historyto finish the season in the top 30 in 6 different offensive categories...he was even second or third on the team in 3 pt PCT...played 40 minutes a game.


of a good year...it was the worst team he ever played on, probably one of the worst backcourts in NBA history, the Spurs still won 55 something games...and after all that he had the worst post season of his career...I wonder why? Could it be because...without him the Spurs that year would have had trouble taking out a DivIIA JV team...I think so. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing and Garnett wouldn't have even made the playoffs with that team...

[whottt]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.

You mind answering my most recent post? You know...the one where it's revealed that you don't know what the you are talking about...

[whottt]

This idea that Robinson had no skill and Hakeem's game was all about skill is getting vastly overstated.

Robinson had a very deadly face-up mid range jumper up to about 16 feet. If you played off him too much, he'd stick it consistently.

Robinson was also an excellent passing big man. When Duncan came to town, his ability to feed the post and run the high-low really showed how great of a passer he was.

Robinson also had a better handle than Hakeem. Hakeem's rapid decline in his late 30's also shows that his game relied more on athleticism than many seem to acknowledge. Once those quicks were gone, it was a different story. You seem to be describing Hakeem as a Tim Duncan, a guy who's game was purely about skill and average athleticism. This is just not the case at all.

I do remember Hakeem really having trouble with David early in David's career and the 6 point game in fact. Robinson really affected him. At that stage of their careers, DRob usually fared quite well in the matchups. Then in 93 Hakeem started to reach another level and really just took Robinson apart in the rest of their "in prime" matchups, esp the 95 series. He attained a level DRob just didnt have in him. But it's not a slight to DRob because the same happened to Ewing and O'Neal. It was more Hakeem excelling than Robinson sucking.

All this may be true...but Drob was a 6'4 guard who couldn't make it off the bench at a non basketball school, he enrolled in the Navy to get his college education in mathematics...he grew from 6'4 to 7'1 in a year or so and became the best player in college basketball setting NCAA records for blocks...

He grew so fast he never lost his guards speed..and that's the way he played, there was no learning or growing period, it was like they just stuck a quick guard in a 7 footers body...and boom, freak.

He sits out for 2 years and as a rookie blocks over 300 shots gets over 100 steals is second in blocks third in rebounding...and wins the IMB award...all that as rookie who had been sitting out for 2 years. In some ways his rookie season might have been his best.



I am not saying Hakeem wasn't a great athlete, he was a great athlete for a bigman, but he was still a true bigman...David was something different than that. He was an athletic freak. He was the fastest guy on the Spurs, he could walk from baseline to baseline on his hands, and on top of that his SAT qualified him for Mensa. He was just a blessed dude...he didn't have to work hard to develop a game. He played hard, but he never worked hard at developing his game beyond his freakish gifts, ya he could shoot good, but it was just sheer coordination...he didn't get that from shooting 100 shots per day in practice. He just did it.

And I agree that Hakeem kicked it up a level for that 2 year period..but Hakeem kept developing and refining his game to get to that point, Hakeem wasn't like that when he first came into the league, he added things to his game as he got older...point is still though, you can't coach speed, and Hakeem, nor anyone else, had the speed to handle the Admiral all by themselves and not foul out of the game. Look at his FTA compared to Hakeem's...look at how many times he lead the league in dunks...thing is, he wasn't picking up all those fouls for the same reason Shaq did...Drob could hit FT's, there was nothing to be gained by putting him on the line, those fouls were not wanted by the opposition.

[DirkAB]

He was the fastest guy on the Spurs, he could walk from baseline to baseline on his hands, and on top of that his SAT qualified him for Mensa. He was just a blessed dude...he didn't have to work hard to develop a game. He played hard, but he never worked hard at developing his game beyond his freakish gifts, ya he could shoot good, but it was just sheer coordination...he didn't get that from shooting 100 shots per day in practice. He just did it.

Seriously, how would you know this stuff? Is there a link or something to back any of this up? He didn't have to work hard at developing his game? How would some internet jocker have any idea what he put into his game, especially in comparison to other great centers?

If you can't dazzle us brilliance, then you're gonna try and baffle us with your bull . I don't know how anybody would even began to respond to one of your posts, it's like reading something written by somebody with a bad case of ADD, after he's been cluckin' meth all day.

[MadDog73]

If you can't dazzle us brilliance, then you're gonna try and baffle us with your bull . I don't know how anybody would even began to respond to one of your posts, it's like reading something written by somebody with a bad case of ADD, after he's been cluckin' meth all day.

as usual, when BAkriD has nothing else, he resorts to insults.

[DirkAB]

as usual, when BAkriD has nothing else, he resorts to insults.

Really, it was just an observation after going through the thread and reading the guy's posts, they gave me a headache.

BTW, you don't have much room to talk, you called me an asshole earlier in the thread, but you don't see me getting all butthurt over a little name.

[MadDog73]

Really, it was just an observation after going through the thread and reading the guy's posts, they gave me a headache.

BTW, you don't have much room to talk, you called me an asshole earlier in the thread, but you don't see me getting all butthurt over a little name.

You are an asshole.