Name 10 players better than Dirk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

^

[Obstructed_View]

HYPOTHETICAL: The Spurs are scheduled to play in Charlotte, but the Spurs do not show up ready to play. At the end of the first quarter, Spurs trail by 10. In the second quarter, Ginobili takes over the game, including going 4/4 from 3 point range in the final minutes of the half. At halftime, the score is tied 45-45; Manu has 20 points in 16 minutes. In the second half, the Spurs come out re-energized, but they still do not match the Bobcats, who continue to play over their heads. In the final seconds, Manu misses a three-pointer for the win. Final Score = Charlotte 90, San Antonio 88. Manu's final line is 40/5/2 in 35 minutes with 72% shooting, incl. 88% from 3 pt. range.

In this example, was Manu "clutch" or not? Obviously, if he does not have a near career game that night, the Spurs are never in a position to win in the final seconds. On the other hand, he missed a wide-open three-pointer that would have won the game. In my opinion, the critical period in that game was not the final seconds of the fourth quarter, but the opening minute or two of the third quarter. Manu puts the team in a position to win, they pretend to listen to Pop at halftime, then the rest of the team proceeds to lay an egg in the second half.

My point is that when something like this happens, there is always a certain percentage of people who attack the player who misses that last shot. Sometimes this may be justified, but I think most people would agree that the above hypothetical tends to show just how reliable Ginobili can be under extreme pressure. In the example, the rest of the team's play put Ginobili in a situation where he had to be perfect for the team to win. Missing that last shot says nothing about how "clutch" Ginobili may or may not be.

Okay, an extreme example, I know. However, it was just this sort of thing that got me started down this path. Fans assume that we can appreciate and interpret just how "clutch" a particular player is based on their play. I am saying that you still have to look at the big picture. Since the scoreboard doesn't care when the points were scored, the "true" critical moment of a particular game may not be in the final seconds.

Excellent example. I think you and I will agree that properly defining "clutch" would require looking at someone's body of work over a period of time, and if a player is able to take over games, the time that it happens isn't the critical factor. Steve Nash can score like crazy at the end of games. In fact, he's better at it when his team has an insurmountable lead. It doesn't make him clutch.

[Reggie Miller]

That would just be the Bobcats beating a team they're supposed to beat. No surprises there.

I wondered who would end up ing that set-up.

[Reggie Miller]

Excellent example. I think you and I will agree that properly defining "clutch" would require looking at someone's body of work over a period of time, and if a player is able to take over games, the time that it happens isn't the critical factor. Steve Nash can score like crazy at the end of games. In fact, he's better at it when his team has an insurmountable lead. It doesn't make him clutch.

Yep. I probably should have busted out my hypothetical earlier, but it required using a calculator. (Being at work limits my internet productivity.)

What got me started on this train of thought was the treatment of Alex Rodriguez by NY fans and media. In baseball, this sort of thing drives me crazy, because the critical period is usually the 6th-8th innings, or when you are hitting against middle relievers (you know, the guys who aren't good enough to start or close). Realistically, very few games are ever won in the 9th inning. Of course, baseball has no clock, so it's not directly comparable to the other sports.

[TheAuthority]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

[sabar]

Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Nash, non-old Shaq, anything else is a serious reach and even Nash is debatable.

[Mr.ChugDynasty]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

Don't be an idiot

and off and die

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

A female friend of mine that doesn't like or follow basketball at all caught a glimpse of him once and said he looks like Harry Potter on steroids. I don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand, but I felt like sharing.

Ricky Rubio looks like him but w/o the steroids. He could of tried out for the part lol.

[mavs>spurs2]

1)Duncan
2)LeBron
3)Nash
4)Garnett
5)Kobe
6)Wade
7)Boozer
8)Yao
9)VC (he'd be higher on the list if he actually tried)
10) Dwight Howard

VC, Dwight Howard, and Boozer are better than Dirk?!?!?

[TheAuthority]

VC, Dwight Howard, and Boozer are better than Dirk?!?!?

Did Boozer not take out a team, and dominate a team that Nowitzki had no answers for? Not only that, he has better numbers than Dirk has as well. He actually plays defense and rebounds. Boozer is undebatably better to me. The others are debatable, but I still feel like they're better players. Could Dirk hold Howard? No. Could Howard hold Dirk? Yes. And Carter probably has the most raw talent out of anyone currently in the NBA not named LeBron.

[Findog]

Did Boozer not take out a team, and dominate a team that Nowitzki had no answers for?

The Utah Jazz took out the Golden State Warriors. I watched that series, I don't remember Superman (aka Carlos Boozer) playing one-on-five. Deron Williams >>>> Jason Terry.

How many series wins does Carlos Boozer have? 2. How many Finals has he led the Jazz to? 0. How many series wins does Dirk have? 8. How many Finals appearances has he led his team to? 1. Very convenient to just examine the 2007 playoffs and ignore everything else.

Not only that, he has better numbers than Dirk has as well.

He gets 3 more rebounds per game than Dirk. Dirk outscores him by four.

He actually plays defense

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

and rebounds.

So does Dirk.

Boozer is undebatably better to me.

And you are undebatedly out of your depth on this topic.

Dirk > Boozer. Period. End of Discussion. Utah had a big, strong playmaking PG, something Dallas doesn't have. Trade Jason Terry straight up for Deron Williams and the Jazz don't beat Golden State either. Four of the five games in the Uta-GS went to the wire, the lone blowout win was by GS. It's not like the Jazz were leagues above the Warriors.

And Carter probably has the most raw talent out of anyone currently in the NBA not named LeBron

Maybe so, but he sucks. He's a loser. I don't want somebody on my team that is going to tip off the opposing bench to what play we're running. Vince Carter.

[TheAuthority]

The Utah Jazz took out the Golden State Warriors. I watched that series, I don't remember Superman (aka Carlos Boozer) playing one-on-five. Deron Williams >>>> Jason Terry.

What does Deron Williams being better than Terry mean? Not much. Who has the better supporting cast? Nowitzki, by far. A huge margin.

He gets 3 more rebounds per game than Dirk. Dirk outscores him by four.

Anyone would take 3 rebounds per game over 4 points per game.

He actually plays defense

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

So you think that he doesn't play defense? What's it say about a man 7 feet tall that doesn't even average a block a game? Now THAT'S hilarious. Dirk is the softest dude in the NBA.

and rebounds.

So does Dirk.

No, he doesn't. Dirk is 7 feet tall and doesn't even grab 10 rebounds a game. That's pathetic. Jason Kidd rebounds as much as he does. He doesn't rebound. He *attempts* to rebound.

And you are undebatedly out of your depth on this topic.

Really? It seems I've got you pegged at every turn.

Dirk > Boozer. Period. End of Discussion. Utah had a big, strong playmaking PG, something Dallas doesn't have. Trade Jason Terry straight up for Deron Williams and the Jazz don't beat Golden State either. Four of the five games in the Uta-GS went to the wire, the lone blowout win was by GS. It's not like the Jazz were leagues above the Warriors.

Really? I don't think it's the end of the story. Swap Nowitzki and Boozer, do the Mavs lose to the Warriors? Of course not. Dirk, as I said, is the softest player in the league. The guy's got no post game to speak of. He can't post up guards. He can't play defense. He can't rebound. He can't block shots. He does nothing well except shoot and score. Boozer can play the post or shoot jump shots. He can rebound. He can defend. Maybe you didn't consider that in your theorem. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble -- Boozer is better.

[Findog]

What does Deron Williams being better than Terry mean? Not much. Who has the better supporting cast? Nowitzki, by far. A huge margin.

Baron Davis: 6'3, 215 lbs
Jason Richarson: 6'6, 225 lbs

Jason Terry: 6'2, 180 lbs
Devin Harris: 6'3, 185 lbs

Deron Williams: 6'3, 205 lbs

See the difference? If there's one thing I remember from the Dal-GS series, it's Davis and Richardson taking their man off the dribble repeatedly. And with Dampier out with a torn rotator cuff, there was nobody back to protect the rim from dribble penetration. Dirk went from 25 and 9 in the regular season to 19 and 10 against GS. Suckass by his standards, but he was playing out of position. That series was lost in the backcourt.

Anyone would take 3 rebounds per game over 4 points per game.

Yeah, 3 rebounds don't automatically translate into points. Boozer's a fine player, and in two years, he'll probably surpass Nowitzki, but he's not there yet. Hey, it's a good thing Dirk upped his rebounding total against the Warriors from 9 in the regular season to 11 in the playoffs. Those two rebounds sure were more important than the 6 points we lost from him. Are you serious?

So you think that he doesn't play defense? What's it say about a man 7 feet tall that doesn't even average a block a game? Now THAT'S hilarious. Dirk is the softest dude in the NBA.

No, Boozer doesn't play defense. You're a Spurs fan, didn't you watch him get clowned repeatedly in the conference Finals? Dirk is a decent help defender and lousy on the ball defender. That's why we signed Dampier, to have somebody to guard opposing bigs like Amare, Duncan and Yao so Dirk wouldn't get into foul trouble doing so. With Dampier out with a torn rotator cuff in the GS series, Dirk slid over to C.

No, he doesn't. Dirk is 7 feet tall and doesn't even grab 10 rebounds a game. That's pathetic. Jason Kidd rebounds as much as he does. He doesn't rebound. He *attempts* to rebound.

He's averaged 10 a game three times in his career, he averaged 11 against Golden State, he averaged 9 per game in the regular season last year. Why don't you get your facts straight before you pop off?

Really? It seems I've got you pegged at every turn.

Considering you can't marshall facts to support your opinions and are speaking nonsense, no, not so much.

Of course not. Dirk, as I said, is the softest player in the league.

That's funny. He's not softer than Vince Carter. If he were, he wouldn't be a top-six player. Softer than say Duncan, Nash, Wade, or Kobe? Sure. But "softest player in the league." Indefensible hyperbole and you know it.

He can't play defense.

He plays better defense than Boozer.

He can't rebound.

If you call 9 rebounds per game "unable to rebound," so be it.

He can't block shots.

Dirk - 0.8 blocks per game
Boozer - 0.3 blocks per game.

Neither one of them can, so why is that a blemish for Dirk but something to be glossed over for Boozer?

He does nothing well except shoot and score.

And rebound, and help-side defense, and slashing to the rim by taking smaller players off the dribble. A 7-foot shooting guard is what he is. Yeah, Avery could instruct Dirk to go park his ass on the low blocks with his back to the basket for 40 minutes but it would take away from his strengths and force him to do something that he's mediocre at. He gets plenty of points in the paint by taking smaller guys off the dribble and slashing to the hoop. Your sample size of 6 games against the Warriors doesn't tell the full story. Tim Duncan can hit an 18-foot jumper consistently, but is that what he should do all game long? To have a 7-footer that can shoot like a guard and handle like a guard is a dangerous weapon. He's got his flaws, I'm not making him out to be something he's not, but as of the 06-07 season, the last sample we have, he's better than Boozer. Sorry. Boozer and the Jazz beat the Warriors, and Dallas didn't, but they got taken to the cleaners by San Antonio, a team Dallas beat and has beaten 8 out of the last 12 meetings. Playoff series are all about matchups, and the Warriors as a team were constructed to beat Dallas.

Boozer can play the post or shoot jump shots. He can rebound. He can defend. Maybe you didn't consider that in your theorem. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble -- Boozer is better

No, I took all that into account, and Dirk is better. Better Scorer, equal or better at defense, more shooting range, better passer, more blocks, better ft-shooter. It's not that close. Boozer gives you two more rebounds per game and Dirk gets you five more points. Boozer has a much better post game than Dirk but he's not as efficient or as prolific a scorer. Sorry, Dirk > Boozer. Maybe in 2010 that will change, but not now.

[Avitus1]

Duncan
Parker
Nash
Garnett
Kobe
Shaq
Wade
LeBron
Arenas
Kidd

[Findog]

Duncan
Parker
Nash
Garnett
Kobe
Shaq
Wade
LeBron
Arenas
Kidd

Dirk > Parker, Nash, Garnett, Arenas and Kidd. Sorry, but Parker is just homer talk.

[SpursWillOwn]

Dirk in crunch time? Cassell, Horry, Manu>Dirk

[Findog]

Dirk in crunch time? Cassell, Horry, Manu>Dirk

Wake me when a GM decides he'd rather have those three guys than Dirk.

Nobody would give a about Horry if he played his entire career for Milwaukee.

[SpursWillOwn]

The lone MVP trophy would highlight Dirk's career.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Which is already more then vince has ever done.

[Findog]

The lone MVP trophy would highlight Dirk's career.

Up to this point I would say a Finals appearance is more meaningful than a regular season award. It's one thing to hear Warrior and Heat fan dog the guy, but you'd think Spurs fan could muster a little more respect.