False...he's always annoyed the out of certain fans...from the day he became a Spur.
The difference is...thanks to campaigns mounted here at ST and elsehwere...people now aren't near as a hesitant to voice their opinions about AJ.
He's also a skidmark on Tony Parker's shorts now as a Spurs PG....and that has a lot to do with it as a well.He's now coach of the Dallas Mavericks. That's how a lot of Spurs fans see him.
I'll check my fact all you want....I even remember Pop's words to Manu as he was handing him the jersey? Do you?
You might want to check your "fact".
There's no doubt he knew it was AJ's jersey.
AJ has had haters his whole basketball career. Why stop now?
His haters are more important now than ever before...as his jersey gets retired.
He who breaks from reality first loses...Like you are one to talk about mascot appeal.
Mr. Coyote > David Robinson. You are the king of mascot appeal. If it were up to you, you'd lower David Robinson's jersey and put up the Coyote's pelt.
AJ in 1999 was a championship level point guard. That means he was a good point guard. And he did have a lot to do with helping the Spurs grow from pretender to contender.
Hogwash...
Oh I'm not calling David soft or a choker.....I'm saying David's teamates sucked...Damn, bro, why do you hate David Robinson so? You are a disgrace to Spurs fandom by calling David Robinson soft and a choker. That's even worse than your "mascot appeal" take.
And for proof of this...I give you...the 96-97 season.
AJ not here, we get worked by Utah...AJ here we get worked by Utah.
Non factor...
Robinson was a great player. You need to find a new team to root for if you can't accept that fact.
Lame.
LOL...convince yourself yet?
And he also had a little fight with Nash in the end of game 4Well said.
During that series, AJ averaged 21 points, six assists and shot 65% from the field. In the deciding game 4, AJ had 30 points, seven assists and shot 11-for-15 from the field.
Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. You can say AJ wasn't great but you can't say he was a scrub. Scrubs don't light up three probably Hall of Famers at the same position.
Yeah, like Johnny Moore's.
Um...last I checked, Johnny Moore didn't get cut, waived, and passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar like AJ did any time he wasn't on Robinson's team.
Johnny Moore > AJ
We probably would have won a le if we'd had him in his prime instead of AJ.
Better player than AJ, in every facet of the game.
Sad that people don't realize that...but I agree, he didn't deserve to have his jersey retired....even with his career ending basically at 28 due to illness...
Goold ole AJ...he put up better numbers(barely) than a guy struck down by injury just as he was entering his prime...
What honor...what a credit to the Spurs retired jersey...
Hopefully they'll put up some of AJ's famous quotes like...
Let him make his own number - said about Manu
THey are sending a boy to do a man's job - said about Parker
Unforetunately we know they wouldn't do that....because it's the truth...and the truth never reflects well on AJ.
Is that how you read that? Damn, you're ing stupid.Translation:
AJ was dead last in shots out of the starting 5, being dared to shoot the most.
Thanks for doing that work for me....
Avery wasn't Tony Parker - Avery was a pass-first point guard. So he averaged less than one shot less than Vinny Del Negro despite having the responsibility of running the team. Vinny's only job was to shoot.
Besides, are you actually saying that Avery should be taking as many shots as Sean Elliott, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan? Why are you trying to have it both ways, whott?
Is it because you hate Avery Johnson and you'll latch onto any argument that you think works?
Oh I'm sorry...are you done trampling on the cripple justifying AJ's jersey retirement?
Popovich: Johnson deserves to have number retired by Spurs
Associated Press
Updated: October 2, 2007, 5:48 PM ET
Comment
SAN ANTONIO -- San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said Tuesday that the team plans to retire the No. 6 worn by Avery Johnson.
Johnson, now coach of the Dallas Mavericks, played 16 seasons in the NBA and spent all or part of 10 seasons with the Spurs. He was with the team for its 1999 le run.
"We're going to retire A.J.'s jersey for all the obvious reasons," Popovich said. "He's been very, very important to the history of San Antonio basketball. He's a championship player. He was a wonderful leader while he was here."
The retirement ceremony for the number worn by the 5-foot-11 guard will take place Dec. 22 when the Spurs play the Los Angeles Clippers, the Mavericks said Tuesday.
"He deserves it, it's going to be a fun night," Popovich added.
Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3046820
Did you even see Johnny Moore play? I did in his pre-Desert Fever years. He had speed, he was a good distributor, but he was a sub-par finisher at the rim.
You say Avery Johnson just made layups (which wasn't true), but Moore often had trouble doing just that.
A career 5.5 apg PG is considered "pass first"? Played with two of the greatest big men of all time for the majority of his career, but only averaged over 8 assists one time?
Let's stick with the "intagible" arguments...
Yeah, I remember being in the locker room the first day he came back, even though he still couldn't play yet. Not my greatest memory as a Spurs fan, because you just knew it would not be the same. Ranks right up there with seeing Gervin's locker cleaned out and every game day when Alfrederick Hughes walked through the door.
I saw a few seasons of Jr play up close and personal, and you are right, he was not the strongest at the rim. But he was a of a lot better "pass first" PG that AJ could ever dream of being.
You'd think some people would see through the AJ campaign you mounted when at the same time you haven't hesitated to mount Shane Heal.
If that were the case, you would have lost a long time ago.
So what did you mean by Coyote > DRob?
What part of "all" do you not understand?
Disgrace.
In his seven seasons as the Spurs starting PG, Avery averaged 7.6 assists. Way to try and distort the record by using his career record.A career 5.5 apg PG is considered "pass first"? Played with two of the greatest big men of all time for the majority of his career, but only averaged over 8 assists one time?
Let's stick with the "intagible" arguments...
I complimented your earlier post - I feel dirty now.
Awesome
Hmmmmm ... who to believe ... whottt and his brainwashed minions or Gregg Popovich?
Obvious.
AJ = Nazr?
Classic.
Slightly? You may need to take another math course.
Motion, four-down offense with two dominating bigs isn't an offense that features scoring or assists from the point guard position.
AJ 1999 > Parker 2003
And that's just on the court. Off the court, in the lockerroom, during the lockout and every other intangible you can think of ... AJ was off the charts.
But this post was over when you compared AJ to Nazr.
The Spurs were trying to get a better point guard through a trade, free agency or draft every ing minute Avery was here.
Wake the up.... The Spurs would've been 10 times better without him. Take Tony Parker for example... a second round pick, 18 year old ran his ass out of town.
Wake the up already... Avery received some Drob benefit, that's it.
Avery is the most overrated Spur ever.
OK, even at 7.6 apg, that is not necessarily a high average for a "pass first" guard. , TP has a career average of 5.5 apg in an offensive scheme where he is encouraged to shoot first.
Can we all agree that he was gritty, determined, a hard worker, dedicated and disciplined, squeezed every ounce of talent that he had, was a coach in a players body, and exhibited leadership qualities that helped mold a championship level team for one year?
But honestly, we can't continue to have converstations regarding his basketball skills. Pick an adjective: Mediocre, Average, Marginal, Good
His "championship caliber" was the intangibles, not the tangibles. If you are OK with designating him as an All Time Spurs Great based on those intangibles, then Pop granted your wish.
I rest my case.
Great news. Congrats AJ!!
Hold on, Hoss. You stated that AJ was championship level, but provided no facts or stats to back that up. Unless you were giving your opinion, the logic of your argument is that he was at a championship level because his team won the championship. The same argument applies to Nazr. Simply convince me with stats. If you are stating that his overall presence and influence on the team was at a championship level, I'm not inclined to disagree with you; however, your opening comment implies performance on the court.
AJ = Nazr?
Classic.
Yes, yes, yes, as a percentage change it is quite large: 13 is 30% greater than 10. But do you honestly consider raising the average to 13 points as a huge step up in his game? I mean, he averaged 17 ppg in the playoffs the previous year.
But SJR is arguing that he played in a pass first role and had good assist numbers while in SA.
Not sure where Parker comes into the equation, but I would expect that a 33 year old veteran playing in his 7th straight season as the starting PG would play better than a 20 year old second year player. But that is just me.
I don't think I have ever questioned AJ's intangibles. In fact, I believe I have stated that it is his intangibles that are getting his jersey in the rafters.
I was simply using your logic because you failed to qualify what championship caliber meant.
Exactly, the Spurs were looking for an Avery replacement every game he played.
Isn't it bad forum ettiquette to use a Sequ rant to prove your point?
Awesome
Hmmmmm ... who to believe ... whottt and his brainwashed minions or Gregg Popovich?
Obvious.
Yeah...one thing Pop is known for...his truthfullness with the media and unwillingness to toe the company line.
Sandman...I think it's fair to describe AJ as a pass first PG...he damn sure wasn't a scoring PG, nor was he a defensive PG....
He was a pass first guy, he just wasn't a very good one, hence the 5.5.
It's funny...5.5 I think is a little under Parker's career average and that's probably the worst part of his game...all you need to know is that the best part of AJ's game is the worst part of Parker's and Parker still puts up better numbers...and he hasn't even been the primary ball handler yet in his career.
After studying the psyche of the AJ fan indepth for a long time now...
I no longer am mystified at how the Germans were stupid enough to allow Hitler to sieze so much power and become so popular.
Sometimes, undeserving people just have that ability to completely inspire blind loyalty within certain persons...no matter how undeserving they are of that loyalty.
I'd be willing to bet that in the deepest darkest corner of the mind of the AJ fan...they'd be willing to give up every championship the Spurs have if it could get AJ into the HOF.
It's not necessarily a high average, but how does it look in context?OK, even at 7.6 apg, that is not necessarily a high average for a "pass first" guard. , TP has a career average of 5.5 apg in an offensive scheme where he is encouraged to shoot first.
In 1993, Avery's first year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten in the NBA. However:
In 1995, he finished 7th in the league.
In 1996, he finished 3rd.
In 1997, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1998, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1999, he finished 9th.
In 2000, his final year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten.
Of course, Tony Parker has yet to finish in the top ten once. But there are other cir stances involved. As we agreed, Parker is a scoring PG, not a pass-first PG. Also, consider offensive systems: Under Bob Hill, Avery finished 7th and 3rd. Under Popovich, Avery finished 9th - once, in three-plus seasons under him.
I don't think Avery's numbers are low in context; do you want 10+ APG from the PG position? That would be nice, but Stockton, Kidd, and Nash don't grow on trees.
What is it with short guys and mustaches??
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