I've thought about him a bit, since the Spurs can without too much difficulty slip a second max offer sheet out there even if they get Collins. It would require them moving one of Murray or White, I think. But that's not horrible if the team is going to max out another guard. Not that I'm saying Trent is a max-worthy player. It's more that he was the next-best thing to spend a max on.
But yeah, they could sign him if they were trading Murray or White for Simmons. They'd have the cap space either way.
Free agency is a bit thin as of now.
Top choices are like Collins who we have to overpay. Or Lauri.
And they are not mutually exclusive, can still get them while getting Simmons.
The other rumor being DeRozan for kuzma and parts. Also meh deal. Most of our paths are pretty lack luster so far.
I think there was some cj McCollum talks a bit earlier this offseason
Yeah, I did say at some point that I was mostly talking about Simmons to defend him as a player in general and to lay out a path toward building around him. I have my horses, but this flexibility is what the Spurs sacrificed to get. It sucks that it didn't end up being the huge bizarre that we all thought it was going to be, but the team has space and tradeable assets and a golden opportunity to remake the roster in a big way.
So you want get someoene slightly better for double the cost? How does this make any sense? I really dont think Ben is better then DJM. he is different and better at something but DJ has things he is better at as well. Just because Ben is getting to the 2nd round of the PLayoffs out there does not mean he will in the west. Most people would agree that Philly has a better bench and a better Center. You take those out and do the even make the PO? 1 player does not make a team. There is also a reason they are trying to trade him. Right now they are trying to get max value but I believe if no one will give that then they will take less.
you cant Sign Collins to max and then trade for Ben and sign trent to a close to max deal. Simmons would count against the cap as soon as he is traded here. If we were to sign Trent and Colloins first then we could not trade for Ben as he would no longer fit into cap space. We could send out players but one of them would not be DDR as in order to sign the other 2 players we would have to renounce him.
So Simmons has lower offence because his team is better but DJM does not have less ast because his team does not make as many baskets? BTW DJM also was not the main player on his team that would belong to DDR. Ben only takes close shots which will tend to help his fg%.
You talk about a cap being second rd PO but that is where Ben is getting on a solid team. Put Murray on that team I bet they get there. Ben would not help this team get further.
First, yes you could get all three of them at the same time. You wouldn't, as that would guy the roster, but you could. Second and more importantly, though, I think you've missed the nature of mind and Mo's conversation if you think we were talking about combining all three of them. We were talking about multiple scenarios at the same time and ways they might be able to intersect. Yes, the Spurs could trade for Simmons using cap space and sign Trent. They could also sign Trent and use up their cap space on something else and then trade for Simmons using over-the-cap rules. That's what I'm referring to when I say, "They'd have the cap space either way." I'm not talking about signing Collins and trading for Simmons and then signing Trent.
Simmons doesn't have lower offense than Murray. But his on-offs are slightly worse because Philly is way better. The drop off from Simmons to not Simmons is less, but either way, Philly's offense is way better with or without Murray. That makes it a wash. I honestly think on-offs are a wash either way and other impact stats show Simmons as a definite positive whereas Murray is basically neutral. But anyway, yeah, the the fact that Simmons boosts Philly's passing and scoring more than Murray boosts that of the Spurs is a sign that Murray isn't a notably better offensive player. I would say Simmons is the better offensive player, but it's a wash in enough stats and Simmons shooting refusal is so glaring that I'm okay with putting down to a wash.
Also, that Simmons has to drive into a defense and can't rely on making free throws yet still has the better TS% is actually a big deal. Simmons and Murray score at similar rates, so it's not like Ben is just opportunistic. Ben, despite handicapping himself so severely, is still a more efficient scorer and impactful play-maker than Murray. That's a big deal.
This is hypocritical. I never said Murray was the main player on his team, just like I never said Simmons was the main player on his. Embiid is a top 5-7 player in the league. He is why Philly is a contender. If they trade Ben and have just a decent guard in return, they'll be a contender again. If they're not, it'll be only because of Joel's health, which is what shot them this year (well, actually it was Green's injury that fully popped the balloon, but they were really weakened after Embiid was hobbled). Simmons and Murray weren't in different positions in terms of their responsibilities. People need to stop looking for excuses for why Murray never grades out to be a very good player. The disconnect between what fans (and Pop probably) think Murray is and what he actually is is the main reason why I think DJM needs to be moved no matter what scenario the team goes down. It's just not a healthy situation for anyone that DeJounte gets franchise-player clout despite being a role-player. It's not good for him. It's not good for the team. It's not good for the organization.BTW DJM also was not the main player on his team that would belong to DDR. ... You talk about a cap being second rd PO but that is where Ben is getting on a solid team. Put Murray on that team I bet they get there. Ben would not help this team get further.
Being the "best player on the team" doesn't have very much value when you are devoid of the number one talent that is needed in the nba today, which is shooting, and you especially need it from a player who has the ball in his hands a lot, like Simmons does.
Also, Simmons is on a max contract which further dilutes his "best player on the team" status as he should be, he is the guy you are paying the most money to that the nba will allow due to his service time.
Mills is NOT a good player. He is a bad defender. He never gets to the line. He is a below average passer. He is a streaky 3 point shooter and for the last 3 years he has fallen off a cliff at the end of the seasons. He isn't a 36% 3 point shooter because he consistently shoots 36%. He's a 36% 3 point shooter cause he goes through stretches where he shoots 42% from 3 and then stretches where he shoots 24% from 3. Consistency is good and Mills is about as inconsistent as they come. His FIBA performance proves that if you make him a number one scoring option he can score a lot of points. Are the Spurs going to force feed him like the Australian national team does? If not then how are the spurs going to get the same production out of him that they do? Also how man international games does he play in vs a full nba season? Lots of players can play well for 8, 10, 12 game spurts. That doesn't at all mean it will translate to regular season and playoff nba basketball.
The spurs problem isn't shooting but the problem is "their man perimeter players struggle with shooting". Sounds like the problem is indeed shooting.
Getting Ben Simmons would make your team the opposite of flexible, because you would then have to build the team around his inefficiencies, and thus you will be in pursuit of nothing but shooting all the time, since Ben can't and won't shoot anything from the point guard position except a dunk, and with the way the 76ers season ended their is no guarantee that Simmons will even dunk a basketball.
I am also not blown away by his defense. His defense is great but when he has to go up against elite offense talent consistently, that offensive talent usually wins out over him. He was what, second in DPOY voting, but as the hawks series went on Trae found it easier and easier to get open looks against Ben and the 76ers defense. I believed he averaged close to 30 for that series if not over 30. So yeah if you get Ben and surround him with shooting, which is in effect changing your whole damn team, you can probably be the 7th or 8th seed. But the second you got to play steph or dame or morant in a 7 game series you are going to be toast, cause Ben is going to slowly wilt over time defensively against those guards AND he is going to compound that with not shooting the basketball which will put absolutely no pressure on those guards having to defend him.
I wouldn't trade Murry for Simmons straight up. Philly needs to add two 1st rounders for that to happen. In today's NBA, a point guard without 3 point shooting cannot take a team far enough. Murray at least already has 3 pt shot and is rapidly improving. Simmons? We're just hoping. Likely he will never have it. Just look at Demar.
Plus, Murray has killer instinct and those type of guys tend to rise at the most important moment of the game. Simmons is proven timid and passive. He will likely fail again and again...
It's interesting that there have already been numerous mentions of players that couldn't be paired with Simmons, and that's before Simmons is even on the team! That's my #1 issue with him-- he's another guy whose glaring shortcomings have to be taken so dramatically into account when considering team building... We just went through two full seasons of that with DeRozan where Forbes played too many minutes (we need his shooting to compensate for DDR) or White was wasted standing around watching DDR iso against opponents. I just want the highest paid guy on the team to be our most fearsome and difficult match up... not the major flaw other teams key on. To me, Simmons is at a best short term gain & a long term loss. If Simmons wasn't enough with Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, and Tobias Harris as teammates, I just don't see how you build around him. That's two MVP/DPOY candidates and a guy with better raw stats than any current Spur, plus a bunch of legit shooters... what more could Philly have possibly given him?
That's why I said I'm not a big fan. While I find him better than DJM same reason as mentioned below. I don't find him that far from djm.
I get the view why is this a move to consider. As he can be someone to build on since he does have some strengths.
His unwillingness to sh will be obvious in playoffs. But no so much in season. It became apparent for 6ers because it's very hard to win a series with that. But we are not playoff anyway. So the idea is to build an at least compe ive team. And Ben seems an easier build than djm (unless DJM improves. Which he does every year)
Simmons does have major drawbacks: he can’t shoot and he dates a Kardashian. Not sure which is worse as for team success/sanity.
BUT I think the main debate that has been going on over the years is that Philly needs to built around either Embiid or Simmons, but they don’t work well together, which I sort of agree with. They both play inside.
Simmons is a great penetrator, passer, and defender. For comparison, Giddey is 1/3 of those, Scottie Barnes is 2/3 potentially. Simmons does need to be built around, but so do many star players, especially ones we might be able to get.
Simmons becomes the head of the snake. Vassel and Dieng would pair well with him. Lonnie and Mills would also. Keldon is always helpful and never a negative in my book, and he would fit also, even if his shooting stays the same, though I predict it improves. Luka would do well with Simmons. I don’t really see a huge problem. We already have role players that need to feed off someone.
DJM and DDR and maybe Yak would have to go, but DDR is gone anyway. DJM is a solid player but projects more as a solid second banana, not the main guy. Yak can’t shoot but I’d rather build around Simmons than Yak, no offense to Yak.
So I see a path. Not saying I necessarily think we have to go this way, but I don’t think it’s far fetched. To me the deal breaker is actually our #12 pick. I wouldn’t want to lose that, but a trade for Simmons has to happen after the draft anyway, right?
Poeltl shoots better than Simmons. Both take 90%+ of their shots within 10 ft, and Poeltl has the higher percentages. (The number of shots taken by both is high enough to be statistically significant. The superiority of Poeltl is real.)
If the idea is to be certain that the Spurs remain dead last in the NBA in 3pt shot attempts, Simmons would go a long way toward guaranteeing that. But is a lack of 3pt shooting supposed to be a recipe for success in the future NBA? Call me doubtful.
Simmons has become a star - sort of - while teamed with Embiid. The Spurs do not have an Embiid, nor even a Tobias Harris. Where is anybody planning to get such players to team with Simmons?
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
Denver Nuggets guard Will Barton will decline his $14.7 million player option for the 2021-22 season, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. Both sides are hopeful to find a deal in free agency.
4:52pm · 17 Jul 2021 · Twitter for iPhone
Not only is it not nearly enough asset wise, but fit wise Murray, Poeltl and "incentive" does nothing for the 76ers, who have a ticking time bomb of a superstar (health and contentment wise) and a gaping hole for a go-to perimeter scorer/creator.
The only way I can see to make theoretical sense of this, is if DeRozan and White go to the 76ers and Murray to a third team.
I think this misses the point. Yak scores well inside and defends well, but is much less versatile than Simmons. So you want Yak playing point guard? Of course not.
Simmons didn’t do well because he played next to Embiid. They get in each other’s way. That’s what basketball writers have been complaining about for 4 years—they need to be split up. One could argue that Simmons on his own team will be better.
Now, by acknowledging this doesn’t mean I say we have to do it. But I think it’s fair to also acknowledge that the Simmons-Embiid tandem has been debated for years.
I’m happy not take on Simmons if his personality is toxic. To me that’s the bigger issue.
Last edited by The Truth #6; 07-17-2021 at 07:15 PM.
Simmons sucks and it would be awesome if everyone just forgot about him.
This. Having Pop run the team already sucks enough as it is. Why do y’all want to suck even more?
there was nothing to fix. DeRozan can shoot. He just didn't want to shoot 3s. Simmons literally doesn't have a jumper at all. The guy can't even shoot free throws
I could totally see the Spurs spending some money on Will Barton.
Denver Nuggets guard Will Barton will decline his $14.7 million player option for the 2021-22 season, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. Both sides are hopeful to find a deal in free agency.
4:52pm · 17 Jul 2021 · Twitter for iPhone
I don't like it, but I could see it happening.
I am just so confused why people think Simmons is a broken player. He is probably the best defensive player in the game. Will comfortable defend the best 1 through to 4 in the game.
When comparing to Murray, I am even more confused. I'll easily give Murray the better shooter le. Murray is more confident in finding his midrange shot and also has a steady 3 point shot. Also Murray is a decent FT shooter.
Simmons most glaring weakness is he has no shot, at all. But he is a much better finisher and dominate in the open break. He is a much better passer, both in finding angles and strength of his pass. He is also much taller making his passing better. They probably equal in rebounding but Simmons is just much taller and automatically gets more boards.
If Murray had Simmons skills, Murray would be a superstud.
His refusal to shoot in playoff stuck to people. That's why.
He is better than Murray. But also double the cost. With glaring weakness. So it becomes the question whether it is worth it. As Murray is getting better almost every year anyway.
But also spurs will not get a star. The only way we can get a star is someone who is kinda broken. We are not getting a Booker or a jokic. So that's really one way we can get a star to build on. That's kinda how I look at it.
The non shooting is an issue. But I feel it won't be too apparent until playoff. When teams scout you. As of now we just wanna build a competent team that can make the playoff. Then worry about that after 3 years
It might have something to do with what they see when they watch him.
You mention Simmons vs Murray and rebounding. You imagine that the taller Simmons will automatically get more boards. Let’s look.
Per game, rebounds, 2020-21 season.
Murray, 7.1
Simmons, 7.2
Simmons is about 7 inches taller, and is paid about twice as much as Murray, and he gets 0.1 more rebounds per game.
You want to pay $15 million more to get 0.1 more rebounds?
Further, Simmons has never had a season where he averaged less than 3 turnovers per game. Murray has never averaged more than 2.
Beyond his poor shooting, it’s things like that which make people skeptical of Simmons.
If Murray had Simmons’ skills, Murray would be a bust and be out of the league....
If Murray had Simmons skills, Murray would be a superstud.
If Murray had Simmons skills, ie Simmons in Murray's body. He would be Rondo 10 years ago.
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