Film Room: Lonnie Walker IV's growth shown in two plays

[DMC]

Would you suggest a 5 time NBA champion, top 5 coach in history known for developing young players knew what he was doing with Walker?

No. Didn't happen before Tim joined the coaching staff.

[DPG21920]

Dude, I went to multiple games in Austin last year. -- I live about 10 minutes away. I also went to a few in San Antonio, of which Lonnie played in at least a couple.
I went to the Raptors game on nephs return and watched him come in during garbage time for I believe his first minutes/points of his career. When he came in, he repeatedly lost his man. REPEATEDLY. I know because I followed nothing but him.

I say all of that to say I made **multiple** posts about Lonnies D being utter . I said on multiple posts he was never going to play given Pops demands for D. It was often non existent in Summer League and I questioned if he'd even get called up given how sporadic his efforts were. There just cannot be any doubt but that Pop and the coaches (wish Ahern had stressed it more or benched him) likely finally got their point across that effort and "compe iveness" were mandated or he'd ride the bench.

I think it's important to note for the record given what this thread has evolved into, that while his abilities were always clear, his Spursian effort was not. And that's what got this team under Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and all the role players to 5 chips and an unsurpassed level of success. Pop sent his message and to Lonnies credit, it was finally recieved.

I too live in Austin. I too went to multiple games.

I clarified what I said and meant. He was a poor defender especially in the team setting. While not productive consistently, we saw flashes of brilliance one on one in all types of games (GL, SL and PS). It’s not a shock to me that he has this type of defense in him. He showed it before; just not consistently

[GAustex]

If I had a guess i would say that Pop held Lonne out because of his off ball and team defense or rather lack thereoff. He seemed OK one on one D. He got picked off and lost his man badly often when he did play. I thought when watching he was thinking too much but who really knows. I am willing to bet that he still struggles with it since against Hardin he was on ball almost all the time. We will see if he can rotate and help and not lose his man when the ball is not in front of him.

[Chinook]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

[ducks]

Who was on the sideline talking to walker
Becky not pop

[DPG21920]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

I love you. Honestly I do. But what? Hopefully with Murray/White Lonnie is a luxury but he absolutely has the tools to be a primary defender and do it well.

[duncan2k5]

If u guys think this is some master plan from Pop yall are simple minded... Lonnie didn't suddenly become good because Pop benched him... That's like benching Kawhi and when he finally plays good ten games later saying it was because of the benching... No! The dude was always this good... He just made mistakes in a 5 minute span that even VETS make...

He will continue to make those mistakes... He will have plays where he isn't trying hard...EVERY nba player does! What will u do then? Bench him for ten games?

[duncan2k5]

That's what happens when you're allowed to play more than 3 minutes in a game.

This, tbh... Everybody acting like it's Pop that made him good... No... The guy had a bad 5 minutes... Prime Duncan had stretches like that.. It happens... U don't bench him for games on end because of it

[duncan2k5]

All this giving Pop credit reminds me of when ppl were trying to give Chip credit for Lonnies preseason shooting until they found out he didn't train with Chip...

But no... Give all credit to Pop, right? The same guy who had Duncan on the bench for a championship sealing defensive possession

[offset formation]

If u guys think this is some master plan from Pop yall are simple minded... Lonnie didn't suddenly become good because Pop benched him... That's like benching Kawhi and when he finally plays good ten games later saying it was because of the benching... No! The dude was always this good... He just made mistakes in a 5 minute span that even VETS make...

He will continue to make those mistakes... He will have plays where he isn't trying hard...EVERY nba player does! What will u do then? Bench him for ten games?

His defense was nonexistent. Stop it.

If you didn't have nephs junk all the way inside you, you might not hold such a grudge.

[gameFACE]

Gotta agree on this. White (like Forbes) is relatively old for a "young" guy and I think he's nearer to his ceiling. White just needs to get healthy. Murray, while I like his leadership and rebounding, has now had 4 seasons to work on shooting and his playmaking instincts. Is he really much better than his 2nd year? Even with the injury setting him back, he's getting perilously close to plateauing. As Bill Parcels once said. "Eventually, he is what he is." Hope I'm wrong.

Lonnie, if he's got the drive, has star potential. KJ and Luka, words still out on them of course.

IMO, Murray will improve with better players around him. Hopefully that's LW in the near future. White will improve to a lesser degree but I'd love the young core to include a big. As for Lonnie, I'm curious to see how he guards Kawhi next time. Kath and Harden are two different types of assignments.

[SAGirl]

I'd be remiss if I didn't credit SAGirl for that maneuver, tbh

lol “bait avoided” is a great move in the right situation.

I wasn’t so much avoiding the subject as avoiding the person. The guy whose bait I ignored has a very hostile forum demeanor and has insulted me in verbal exchanges in the past. He is prone to also go off with pejorative insults on other people he disagrees with. Knowing the quality of the “conversation” he was proposing, I simply declined.

To take that bait was only going to end in my aggravation.

—-

As for this subject this is a lively thread that I am enjoying . At least Lonnie is a positive development for the team. I am now more interested in what happens next. I posted somewhere that’s the thread I want to see/read. Perhaps something for you to comment on soon?

Here we are now. What’s Pop going to do. I have to think minutes will be carved out for Lonnie somehow.

[XDT76]

lol “bait avoided” is a great move in the right situation.

I wasn’t so much avoiding the subject as avoiding the person. The guy whose bait I ignored has a very hostile forum demeanor and has insulted me in verbal exchanges in the past. He is prone to also go off with pejorative insults on other people he disagrees with. Knowing the quality of the “conversation” he was proposing, I simply declined.

To take that bait was only going to end in my aggravation.

—-

As for this subject this is a lively thread that I am enjoying . At least Lonnie is a positive development for the team. I am now more interested in what happens next. I posted somewhere that’s the thread I want to see/read. Perhaps something for you to comment on soon?

You know I think Pop, besides flaming him publicly (could be deserved and Lonnie handled it well regardless, I will give you that) the benching went on for too long and IMO it had more to do with Pop not figuring out his best lineups and his best players than with a particular lesson for Lonnie.

However that’s water under the bridge. Here we are now. What’s Pop going to do. I have to think minutes will be carved out for Lonnie somehow.

Good move, this used to be a great forum but recently some posters starts calling you names when you did not hold the exact same view as them.

It is actually fruitless to discuss whatever Pop did with regards to Lonnie is right or wrong, effective or not because there is not way to prove it either way. What I am glad is that the Houston games is the first time I see Lonnie shows long period of focus on both end of the floor. I was worried that he would not be able to reach his potential by zoning out when he was not the focal on O or D.

I also think that the retirement of Tim, Manu and Tony and the passing of his wife might made him more sentimental when dealing with players that he is familiar with.

[TDMVPDPOY]

when he took that 3 instead of passing it...u know he has arrive, everyone else whose not a known chucker on the team, wouldnt have shot that, too scared to be chewed out by popa

[Slippy]

Lonnie gets his first substantial amount of mins scores 29. We seen 2 cameos leading up to this performance and that's because he got off the bench instead of Marco. The game was there. Pop felt he wasn't compe ive enough . He probably saw the guy smile after a Blowen assignment. With Pop theres a different standard for every player.

You can't spin this . Lonnie should of being p laying earlier. He should also start moving forward . He more ready than TP was when he was first inserted into a starting role. The role he coming into as in Bryns is a glaring weakness compared to TPs situation.

[Sugus]

Lonnie gets his first substantial amount of mins scores 29. We seen 2 cameos leading up to this performance and that's because he got off the bench instead of Marco. The game was there. Pop felt he wasn't compe ive enough . He probably saw the guy smile after a Blowen assignment. With Pop theres a different standard for every player.

You can't spin this . Lonnie should of being p laying earlier. He should also start moving forward . He more ready than TP was when he was first inserted into a starting role. The role he coming into as in Bryns is a glaring weakness compared to TPs situation.

The problem I see about Lonnie starting is his fit with the first unit. Don't get me wrong, it would definitely make the SL better (anything you switch on that takes the worst defender in the NBA off the floor is a W), but I think that the starters are too ISO-heavy and reliant on DD/LMA production for Lonnie to get the significant touches he deserves to build up his game and shine. During overtime, for example, it was clear that DD was getting the ball to Lonnie in spite of his own game - but I can't see this being the case for every game unless Lonnie actually starts to average 20+ppg, which is obviously a pipe dream. White as a starter gets DD/LMA the ball on their spots so they can be more effective, and Dejounte can run the fastbreak with Lonnie as a partner much more effectively than having to wait for LMA's corpse to drag onto the half court.

Having said that, now more than ever is it clear that we have a logjam at the guard position that needs solving. DeMar as an out-of-position 2 is expendable for us and he's never going to be playing better than he is right now - Spurs FO should be selling high on him at the deadline, and free up all those minutes for the young guns. Though I start to wonder how much of this is a pipe dream as well, tbh...

[RC_Drunkford]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

very interesting take. Now that I think about it, the main reason why people thought Jonathon Simmons was a good defender was cause he guarded Harden :

[RC_Drunkford]

Huh?

Are you talking about when I said the Spurs don't have their next franchise player on their roster yet in TD 21's thread? If so, that's one interesting definition of throwing Walker under the bus.

You believe Walker is a franchise player? I hope you're right and, if that day comes, I hope you'll forgive me for doubting him. I'm pretty high on him but franchise player? Yeah, no, no I'm not there.

I might have exaggerated when I said that, but you saying that playing the young guys wouldn't make the team better, just more exciting to watch, was completely wrong

[timvp]

I might have exaggerated when I said that, but you saying that playing the young guys wouldn't make the team better, just more exciting to watch, was completely wrong

When did I say that?

[RC_Drunkford]

When did I say that?

Is it, though? I don't see anyone saying the Spurs are championship contenders once they allow Murray, White and the other youngsters to develop. Some think playing them more would make the team better (but not suddenly transform into a contender or anything) but mostly people just want to see them play because it's more fun than watching Marco lose.

I think everyone is agreement that this team's next franchise player isn't on the team yet.

We'll see. I'm not ready to crown Walker (and, by extension, Pop) yet after one good quarter

ok you weren't throwing him under the bus, but it's pretty funny to me you said all that after the Minnesota game/a day before the Rockets game. You saying "Some think playing them more would make the team better" makes it sound like you weren't part of that group

[timvp]

ok you weren't throwing him under the bus, but it's pretty funny to me you said all that after the Minnesota game/a day before the Rockets game. You saying "Some think playing them more would make the team better" makes it sound like you weren't part of that group

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21's ridiculous claim in the first place

[RC_Drunkford]

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21's ridiculous claim in the first place

I mostly agree with that notion, but a Walker break out might do just that. Walker producing like Donovan Mitc in his rookie season, like I have often claimed he could, would make the Spurs pretty dangerous. The only problem with that is Morris in us over. If the Spurs package one of the midget SGs with some of the non-rotation guys in Beli/Carroll and get a starting forward in return, we might have something here.

[TD 21]

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21's ridiculous claim in the first place

At the lack of basic reading comprehension.

[Slippy]

The problem I see about Lonnie starting is his fit with the first unit. Don't get me wrong, it would definitely make the SL better (anything you switch on that takes the worst defender in the NBA off the floor is a W), but I think that the starters are too ISO-heavy and reliant on DD/LMA production for Lonnie to get the significant touches he deserves to build up his game and shine. During overtime, for example, it was clear that DD was getting the ball to Lonnie in spite of his own game - but I can't see this being the case for every game unless Lonnie actually starts to average 20+ppg, which is obviously a pipe dream. White as a starter gets DD/LMA the ball on their spots so they can be more effective, and Dejounte can run the fastbreak with Lonnie as a partner much more effectively than having to wait for LMA's corpse to drag onto the half court.

Having said that, now more than ever is it clear that we have a logjam at the guard position that needs solving. DeMar as an out-of-position 2 is expendable for us and he's never going to be playing better than he is right now - Spurs FO should be selling high on him at the deadline, and free up all those minutes for the young guns. Though I start to wonder how much of this is a pipe dream as well, tbh...

It's a concern but I'd rather the coach prioritize his min over touches. Keep in mind all of Lonnies points explosion pretty much came in the second half. The first he hardly got any touches but still got the same mins. It all about time on court and then rhythm in my book. It was important that pop went back to him in the second half or we never would of seen that explosion.

[Sugus]

It's a concern but I'd rather the coach prioritize his min over touches. Keep in mind all of Lonnies points explosion pretty much came in the second half. The first he hardly got any touches but still got the same mins. It all about time on court and then rhythm in my book. It was important that pop went back to him in the second half or we never would of seen that explosion.

Yeah, I understand that. It is exactly the problem Lonnie would have if he were promoted to the SL, maybe as a 2-3 with Forbes riding the pine, for example. DeMar and LaMarcus are both rhythm players who need a lot of touches and on-ball possessions to be effective, which will inevitably prevent Lonnie from getting the touches he also needs. I'd much rather see him coming off the bench second and having a two-man game with DJ off the bench, they look like they have a lot of synergy. If Pop weren't so set on his ways we could also see a Dj-White-Lonnie lineup but maybe that's too much to ask for this season