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Transfer half to Austin and go for the G-league le!
This roster, team direction, need to allow players to develop, etc., really provided no place for Forbes.
This signing still has me boggled...and pissed.
Transfer half to Austin and go for the G-league le!
And Pop has no patience for guys like Lyles, coming out not ready. I was surprised he stayed with Jak after that 20 games scared-of-FT stunt, or maybe why we signed Landale, Zollins, maybe Lauri but it didn’t work out. Poeltl needs to start shooting. I think Forbes, McDermont is to put up numbers. This is still an NBA team. But Pop would be looking at players who can be developed, and who can be dealt. It’s Spring cleaning after the vets are gone. Day 1.
We are last in 3PA last year and lost 2 of our best shooters. Is it really that hard to figure out?
Because the NBA actually keeps stats on this, and White was a decent ISO scorer while Murray was well below-average. It's true that he did it more than anyone besides DMDR, but he was the second-worst of the returning players in terms of effectiveness.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/is...sort=PPP&dir=1
Basically in every way you can imagine, from scoring to limiting turnovers to drawing fouls, Murray wasn't a good iso player. Now if he were to call a screen, then his success rate passes up White, but they were both below-average last season. DeRozan was great, and a few unnotable guys were above average. But the two main ball-handlers struggled.
People are going to really appreciate how great of an offensive player DeRozan is when they see the team without him. He's basically great to elite in every playtype except spotting up, and even then he was dead average. Meanwhile, Murray was below-average to awful in most offensive playtypes. We should all hope he, White and the other guys step up. But it's a mistake to believe that they and especially Murray were even okay offensively last season. Right now, the prospect of using Murray as the closing scorer should be disconcerting to anyone. He hasn't shown that he can do it. Then again, he hadn't shown that he was efficient at the rim before last year. So hay esperanza?
White is doing it off of spot-ups when a player jab steps a couple of time it is considered as iso , murray and derozan do this as primary actions and run it multiple times with the best point of attack defender on them.
ISO possessions leading to a long 2 are something defenses are happy to give up
the PPP looks good for derozan but when you consider the pace has to be slowed to accommodate that style of play, his lack of gravity off the ball, in conjunction with his frequent lapses in guarding the 3 point line defensively, you get the overall unfavorable numbers that derozan has consistently seen throughout his career in terms of net rating and plus minus.
The team without the reliance on isolation possessions in the half court will be more free to run the floor, have better spacing when they do find themselves set up in the half court, be more compe ive defensively, and will result in a team that is as good or better than last year's in terms of win %.
I don't get this. While a player being bad at isoing is better than a player who was good at it but didn't do it much. I also think it's head-cannon to believe White's iso's were spot-ups that he scored on, especially since the spot-up play type isn't assuming a player immediately shoots the ball.
Last edited by Chinook; 08-13-2021 at 12:45 PM.
PPP looks good for DeRozan because he was a fantastic offensive creator. Bringing up his defense has nothing to do with the point being discussed. Same with off-ball gravity (even though as I said, DeRozan was a better spot-up player than Murray too).
Maybe the team needs to iso less, but A) DeRozan was great in non-iso playtypes and B) We're specifically talking about closing, which is always going to be an iso-heavy thing since it's hard to run down a shot clock and still get into a called play.
DeRozan loved running, and while the team will have better spacing, they could've done that by replacing Murray, Johnson or Poeltl with a shooter. The offense wasn't built around DeRozan's strengths either. Again, people are going to realize that star offensive players don't grow on trees and that you can't just manufacture them out of whole cloth. Right now, White is the only guy who might be able to be a very good offensive player without assuming an incredible leap in skill.
This is where stats can become misleading when used improperly. I don’t have the time to go through this right now since I’m working, but that’s my two cents for now. Anyone who watched the Spurs last season extensively can make the determination that White wasn’t much of an ISO scorer. DeMar for sure was, and so was DJ.
I get the three point shooting part, trust me on that. I know we suck from three.
Problem is, we'll likely lose with Bryn in the game even if he's hitting shots. He doesn't make us better. That's already a known fact. So my thought is why bring back a known net negative, and have him steal minutes from someone who might develop into something better than that?
Your response is exactly what the FO is thinking. So in an effort to improve our three point shooting by bringing back Forbes, we're ultimately going to hurt the future this team by stunting the growth of the guys behind him in the rotation.
Not happy............
Yeah, I think you're right about Forbes being strictly a 2, especially on this roster. Even someone like Walker would (or at least should) play 1 before Forbes, for example.
I think White is a 1/2/3 on this roster because you know Pop will play Murray, Forbes and White together and in that alignment White would be the 3 in most situations.
Primo could develop into anything from a 3/2 to a 1/2, IMO. It seems like the Spurs are going to push him as a 1 during his development so the safest bet right now is probably a 2/1 -- but too early to say for sure.
Vassell doesn't dribble or pass well enough yet to be a 2/3, IMO. I see him more as a 3/2 until those areas improve.
Samanic being strictly a 4 is probably fair, especially on this roster with a million 5 options.
For the record, I think DeRozan on the Spurs was like a 3/4/2/1 and Gay was a 4/5/3.
For the record, I did struggle with assigning positions to those names you mentioned.
I was close to writing White as a 1/2/3.
Primo as a 2/1/3.
just didn’t want to complicate it by having players with three designations, when most had only two.
i think White and Primo really compliment each other from 1-2-3 though.
Yeah, anyone who thinks Pop will use Forbes sparingly is delusional. Maaaaaaaaaybe he won't start (I still think there's a decent to good chance Pop starts Forbes), but Forbes is going to play his 25+ MPG regardless. It'll be like Michael Finley all over again. No matter what the eye-test, analytics or anything else said, Pop loved Finley so Finley played. Pop loves Forbes so Forbes will play.
That's why my No. 1 priority last offseason was to no re-sign Forbes. There's just no way Pop would use him even like Bud used him -- and even if Pop magically takes Bud's lead, it's still a bad signing because Forbes was a hugely net-negative player on the Bucks too.
I guess Forbes will be helpful for tanking purposes because his league worst defense assures his three-point shooting is negated, no matter how straight he shoots it. But he'll be stealing what could be developmental minutes from Walker, Vassell, Jones, etc. so the tanking help isn't even worth it when looking on the big picture.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-iiiiii-iiiiiiii-iiiiiiiiiii
Too low volume, mostly on triple threat position when he has the advantage or a defender bites on his jab. DJ and Demar run it to create offense on clutch situations at end of games when set plays break down with switching defenses.
Pop will run the clutch Patty Mills plays for Bryn whenever we need a 3 in crunch time. I have no doubt about that
You can't develop everybody, if your main guys need shooters to take the next step offensively then you stunt their growth by not giving it to them. Second half of the year we are not really playing against normal defenses because of our lack of shooting, Keldon numbers took a hit and DJ stopped getting to the rim and settling for mid range jumpers.
I don't think inserting the worst defensive player in the league...the LEAGUE...into your lineup helps guys develop either. You'd sacrifice the development of Tre, or Walker, or Vassell, or Luka, just so the midget can be out there spreading the floor and getting attacked by the opposing team's offense? None of those guys will develop sitting on the bench.
There's no way to justify this signing...sorry. It was an idiot decision, and if Pop gives Forbes those 20+ minutes a night, it will put a serious dent in the rebuild. I'd rather lose with those guys playing, and yeah, probably missing some shots, than lose (and we will certainly still lose) with Forbes stealing those minutes just for the occasional heater once ever five games.
Its universal throughout the NBA. It's not why "we play so badly" (it's because they lack talent/fit) and none of that would work with said subpar talent/fit.
Big, long, below average athleticism/ball skills forwards are now primarily fours.
Easier and cleaner for people like you, Dejounte, etc. Not everyone is that hardcore a fan though, which is why we're seeing things like I alluded to in the opening and why I defined the sub groups/positions which populate the game today.
A perfect example is you listing Primo as a 2/1. That's the way they're attempting to groom him on offense, but on defense he'll always be a 2/3. In addition: Forbes is strictly a 2; not sure how Bates-Diop is a primary 3, but Johnson isn't; Collins is strictly a 5.
We don't even have a above average star player.... we should tank
Fvck!Yeah, anyone who thinks Pop will use Forbes sparingly is delusional. Maaaaaaaaaybe he won't start (I still think there's a decent to good chance Pop starts Forbes), but Forbes is going to play his 25+ MPG regardless. It'll be like Michael Finley all over again. No matter what the eye-test, analytics or anything else said, Pop loved Finley so Finley played. Pop loves Forbes so Forbes will play.
That's why my No. 1 priority last offseason was to no re-sign Forbes. There's just no way Pop would use him even like Bud used him -- and even if Pop magically takes Bud's lead, it's still a bad signing because Forbes was a hugely net-negative player on the Bucks too.
I guess Forbes will be helpful for tanking purposes because his league worst defense assures his three-point shooting is negated, no matter how straight he shoots it. But he'll be stealing what could be developmental minutes from Walker, Vassell, Jones, etc. so the tanking help isn't even worth it when looking on the big picture.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-iiiiii-iiiiiiii-iiiiiiiiiii
That’s been my point for awhile. The team was never built around DDR, sort if like a very poor man’s version of Harden in Houston. The DDR era was always a shared era with LMA. Now, I’m happy we have moved on, ecstatic really, but we have to wonder what the team could have looked like if he was surrounded by 3/D players at the other positions. Glad to have moved on given the choices the FO made, but it’s a small mystery, for me at least, of what could have been.
As for Forbes, it reminds me of the return of Marco. Bad on paper, awful, awful, awful once we saw the results.
Man, the assumption that we are rebuilding is going to take a hit if/when Pop falls in love with playing Forbes and, if he’s on the team, Thad Young.
not pop's style. he likes to limit the other team's FT attempts.
I agree with both you and TIMVPs position scaling. For an ISO bucket it’s DJ or Walker in my opinion but having the ball in White’s hand in the clutch makes the most sense if a play is drawn up.
With that being said whoever has the hot hand should get the play drawn up for him in the finals seconds (even if it is Forbes). I don’t anticipate too many games where it goes down to the wire regardless. I’m not even confident anyone will get the minutes to get hot. I suspect Pop will be playing 12-13 players a night, benching guys for no apparent reason, tweaking lineups, rewarding coffee gang culture over real results, out coaching himself every chance he gets you know Pop things.
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