Suns: Are they this generation's 2007 Mavericks?

[Dirks_Finale]

Add to the fact they had some severe injuries including season enders to big time contributors like Caron Butler, Corey Brewer, and the extremely overhyped-at-the-time Rodrigue Beaubois who people thought was rapidly ascending into an all star or better type league talent but turned out to be a nobody. ( "French Allah"). Peja missed most of the regular season... even Dirk missed a decent chunk of games. People thought they were too thin, too injured, too soft and too reliant on the three ball to win in big games. And the perennial playoff choker thingy.

People didn't really believe Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson (guys who had been role players on other choking playoff teams not Dallas in the past) were actually dawgs who were going to topple the Lakers dynasty, retire Phil Jackson and win the whole damn thing. You can add Peja to the list of perennial playoff chokers that redeemed himself with the 2011 Mavs even though he was soft. And Kidd and Terry too to some extent. I don't think anyone on that team had ever won a ring. Most of them had come close with various teams, though.

I'll be honest, when he went down I seriously questioned whether they were good enough to make it out of the first round. Never a fan of Predrag and didn't like him as the replacement signing. He proved me wrong.

[Millennial_Messiah]

I'll be honest, when he went down I seriously questioned whether they were good enough to make it out of the first round. Never a fan of Predrag and didn't like the him as the replacement signing. He proved me wrong.

One of the best side plots from the 2011 Finals was Deshawn Stevenson finally getting his long awaited revenge against Le ... it was heart warming all around to watch the Heatles choke in the Finals similar to how the Mavs had done five years before.

You weren't a fan of Predrag Stojakovic because he always torched Dallas with the Kings especially in '02 and '04, but yeah he really stepped up to the plate and batted 150 and finally beat his old-time-worn Lakers demons. Another side plot. At least one of the old Kings from '02 got to beat the Kobe-Phil Lakers in a playoff series.

[Dirks_Finale]

One of the best side plots from the 2011 Finals was Deshawn Stevenson finally getting his long awaited revenge against Le ... it was heart warming all around to watch the Heatles choke in the Finals similar to how the Mavs had done five years before.

And he was just a filler in that JHO trade.Weird how it all worked out.

[Neo.]

andy not knowing what hes talking about?

what a shocker

[Millennial_Messiah]

andy not knowing what hes talking about?

what a shocker

Aaron Rodgers $50 Million a year only to be the second-best pro sports athlete and second-most recent pro sports champion..... in the state of Wisconsin.

Sad.

[ambchang]

Those late 00's early 10's Spurs highlights the difference between the regular season and the playoffs. In the regular season, one superstar can help carry a team to a decent record because you get to play a bunch of games (14/30, so almost half, by definition) against non-playoff teams, and then another 10 to 15 games against these fringe playoff teams that has no business in the playoffs if not for the fact that 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. These types of games usually inflate a badly constructed team's record by allowing them to feast on the weak but then inevitably lose against stronger compe ion. Think this year's Bulls.

Then the playoffs roll around, these pretenders play better teams, and their compe ion have 4 to 7 games to figure them out and exploit their weaknesses and they crumble. Duncan after 07/08 was a s of his former self. Amy broke him, and he got up there in age. The Spurs offence was built more around Manu in the late 00s and then Parker in the early 10s. They are good players, don't get me wrong, but they are not Lebron, Shaq and Duncan in their primes. They can play a central role in the offence, or even be the centre of the offence IF the supporting cast is good enough, but when players like Roger Mason, a geriatric Finley, Neal, Richard Jefferson, and George Hill were a major cog in your offensive machine, you are just not going to go too far. Those Spurs team were also rather average on defence. They just weren't very good teams.

[mystargtr34]

2015 was actually a very good team. They just lacked hunger, as most Spur's teams did whenever they were defending les instead of pursuing them.

To me, those 2008-2011 teams were the down era even though it still looked good on paper. The 2012 Spurs got Kawhi and Duncan worked his magic, hired a nutrionist, dropped weight and rejuvinated his career even with a progressive tendonosis issue.

Yeah that 2014-2015 team should have been even better than 2014 with Kawhi's rise to All-Star/superstar but after winning in 2014 it was tough for the older guys to back it up. Especially when you consider the journey to the 2014 ring included deep playoff runs and heartbreak in 2012 and 2013.

Plus, that Clippers team was a bad matchup for the Spurs for some reason. CP3 just seemed to get whatever he wanted against the Spurs.

2015-2016 was also an awesome team. I thought the Spurs were rolling to that championship, especially after going up 2-0 against the Thunder and Aldridge playing like an MVP.

[Mark Celibate]

Not even close.....

2009
2010
2015
1998

were all obviously worse, and there's probably others like 2000, 2001 and 2008 that fall into that category as well. 2000-2002 they actually thought they could beat the Lakers by starting 3 bigs and 2 six footers?

IMO the 2008-09 Spurs were the worst out of the bunch. Lost in 5 to a Dallas team that was also one of the worst in the Nowitzki era tbh

[Mark Celibate]

Add to the fact they had some severe injuries including season enders to big time contributors like Caron Butler, Corey Brewer, and the extremely overhyped-at-the-time Rodrigue Beaubois who people thought was rapidly ascending into an all star or better type league talent but turned out to be a nobody. ( "French Allah"). Peja missed most of the regular season... even Dirk missed a decent chunk of games. People thought they were too thin, too injured, too soft and too reliant on the three ball to win in big games. And the perennial playoff choker thingy.

People didn't really believe Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson (guys who had been role players on other choking playoff teams not Dallas in the past) were actually dawgs who were going to topple the Lakers dynasty, retire Phil Jackson and win the whole damn thing. You can add Peja to the list of perennial playoff chokers that redeemed himself with the 2011 Mavs even though he was soft and really more of a shooter than a dawg. And Kidd and Terry too to some extent. I don't think anyone on that team had ever won a ring. Most of them had come close with various teams, though.

funny thing is Dallas was picked as prime to be upset by a talented Blazers team, and it almost happened after blowing a 23 pt lead in Game 4 bringing the series tied 2-2. Most people (myself included) thought it was going to be another first round collapse by the "Chokericks" but it's mind boggling to think they went 14-3 after that game to finish out the year against three teams with several HOF players all around their prime

[Neo.]

before the caron/dirk/Tyson injuries happened, I think the Mavs were at like a 65-66 win season pace or something ridiculous, and dirk was getting a lot of early season MVP chatter. they were really underrated because everyone focused on them going on like a 2-9 streak after the injuries, the Lakers game a couple months later where they got punked, then the game against Portland where Rick called them soft afterwards. everyone pretty much gave up them at that point. then he replaced Roddy nashroseparker with deshawn as a starter and everything went back to normal

[baseline bum]

Yeah that 2014-2015 team should have been even better than 2014 with Kawhi's rise to All-Star/superstar but after winning in 2014 it was tough for the older guys to back it up. Especially when you consider the journey to the 2014 ring included deep playoff runs and heartbreak in 2012 and 2013.

Plus, that Clippers team was a bad matchup for the Spurs for some reason. CP3 just seemed to get whatever he wanted against the Spurs.

2015-2016 was also an awesome team. I thought the Spurs were rolling to that championship, especially after going up 2-0 against the Thunder and Aldridge playing like an MVP.

Don't forget Leonard getting shut down by Matt Barnes.

[mystargtr34]

Don't forget Leonard getting shut down by Matt Barnes.

Yeah Kawhi came up small in games 5-7. I just checked the stats from that series and Tony averaged 11 points on 36% shooting and 0% from 3 😂 and Manu 8 points on 35% and Danny 8 points on 34% FG and 30% from 3.

And too much Diaw and not enough Tiago let Griffin go off. Can’t believe the Spurs almost won the series. Probably cause of Duncan’s monster throwback series.

[Millennial_Messiah]

IMO the 2008-09 Spurs were the worst out of the bunch. Lost in 5 to a Dallas team that was also one of the worst in the Nowitzki era tbh

Yup. I don't care that Manu was out for the playoffs, it was a Spurs team very lucky to win as many games as they did (low 50s) because of multiple game winning shots by Roger Mason Jr. and that was TP's best year. No excuses to lose in 5 with HCA to a meh Dallas team with TP in the best year of his prime and Duncan still in his prime. But again, bad depth and both Bowen and Finley were on their last legs that year and it showed.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah Kawhi came up small in games 5-7. I just checked the stats from that series and Tony averaged 11 points on 36% shooting and 0% from 3  and Manu 8 points on 35% and Danny 8 points on 34% FG and 30% from 3.

And too much Diaw and not enough Tiago let Griffin go off. Can’t believe the Spurs almost won the series. Probably cause of Duncan’s monster throwback series.

Yeah you had nearly 40 year old Timmy trying to pull a 2003 out of his ass to beat a better Clippers team that had that unstoppable double screen at the time with CP3/Griffin/Deandre Jordan and all those shooters like Re and Barnes and Crawford and other guys who seemingly couldn't miss. Even with all that we eeked out a game 5 victory on their court and should have won game 6 at home, we had a commanding 15 point lead late in the 2nd quarter until Poop went with hack-a-Deandre Jordan when WE WERE UP DOUBLE DIGITS AND HAD ALL THE F--KING MOMENTUM.

[Millennial_Messiah]

funny thing is Dallas was picked as prime to be upset by a talented Blazers team, and it almost happened after blowing a 23 pt lead in Game 4 bringing the series tied 2-2. Most people (myself included) thought it was going to be another first round collapse by the "Chokericks" but it's mind boggling to think they went 14-3 after that game to finish out the year against three teams with several HOF players all around their prime

100% agreed. I was pretty sure Dallas was losing to Portland and that Brandon Roy's Blazers were a cinderella team of destiny that year. People may forget that before Damian Lillard the Blazers had Brandon Roy who was *that guy*. He single handedly brought the Blazers back from that 23 point mid-4th quarter deficit (truly one of the most remarkable playoffs I've ever seen to date, along with that Clippers-Grizzlies Game 1 one the next year) - but what made that comeback ultra epic was that it was one guy (Brandon Roy) who did pretty much all the work. It was Jordan-esque.

Even after somehow getting past the Blazers, nobody gave Dallas a snowball's chance in to upset the new #1 seed, two-time-defending champion mighty Lakers. Not a chance. Most predictions were Lakers in 5, Lakers in 5, Lakers in 5, but a good amount of experts also predicted a sweep in the Lakers' favor. Nobody.... nobody... nobody gave "_allas", "Nowinski" and the "Chokericks" a fighting chance.

before the caron/dirk/Tyson injuries happened, I think the Mavs were at like a 65-66 win season pace or something ridiculous, and dirk was getting a lot of early season MVP chatter. they were really underrated because everyone focused on them going on like a 2-9 streak after the injuries, the Lakers game a couple months later where they got punked, then the game against Portland where Rick called them soft afterwards. everyone pretty much gave up them at that point. then he replaced Roddy nashroseparker with deshawn as a starter and everything went back to normal

Stevenson was a dawg. Chandler was a dawg. Barea was a pest, Terry was still ole Terry, Kidd was no longer Kidd, but he was still a savvy high BBIQ PG who knew and accepted his new role. Marion knew and accepted his role. They had exactly the right roster, full of older but still-good mercenaries / former all stars at all the right positions that had come up just short in past playoff years but were uber-hungry to get over the hump and build around Dirk to go all the way and get their first and only championship ring.

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah and didn't Kawhi get outplayed by Matt Barnes for a few games in that series?

Yeah that 2014-2015 team should have been even better than 2014 with Kawhi's rise to All-Star/superstar but after winning in 2014 it was tough for the older guys to back it up. Especially when you consider the journey to the 2014 ring included deep playoff runs and heartbreak in 2012 and 2013.

Plus, that Clippers team was a bad matchup for the Spurs for some reason. CP3 just seemed to get whatever he wanted against the Spurs.

2015-2016 was also an awesome team. I thought the Spurs were rolling to that championship, especially after going up 2-0 against the Thunder and Aldridge playing like an MVP.

[Millennial_Messiah]

But they would have destroyed Philly and probably eeked out a series win in 6 or 7 vs Milwaukee strictly on Duncan's dominance that year if

No; Milwaukee had our number firmly and had won every single game against us from 1998-2002.

Gay Ray Allen was a bone in our throats from the day Duncan set foot on an NBA court until the day we finally retired him in 5 (after ceremoniously retiring Fisher the previous round against OKC). Sam Cassell was a pain in the ass too. Michael Redd, too.

The Spurs didn't finally get a regular season win against Milwaukee in the Duncan era until after Allen was traded to the Sonics for Gary Payton, at the 2003 trade deadline. Heck, we got two of them that year en route to the championship, since both meetings were in March after the trade deadline. All all time stupid trade for the Bucks; they got infinitely worse pretty much immediately. How on earth did they think they were going to get better trading a superstar in his prime for a nearly 40 year old Glove and Desmond ing Mason?

[baseline bum]

No; Milwaukee had our number firmly and had won every single game against us from 1998-2002.

Gay Ray Allen was a bone in our throats from the day Duncan set foot on an NBA court until the day we finally retired him in 5 (after ceremoniously retiring Fisher the previous round against OKC). Sam Cassell was a pain in the ass too. Michael Redd, too.

The Spurs didn't finally get a regular season win against Milwaukee in the Duncan era until after Allen was traded to the Sonics for Gary Payton, at the 2003 trade deadline. Heck, we got two of them that year en route to the championship, since both meetings were in March after the trade deadline. All all time stupid trade for the Bucks; they got infinitely worse pretty much immediately. How on earth did they think they were going to get better trading a superstar in his prime for a nearly 40 year old Glove and Desmond ing Mason?

Just like the Spurs dominated Hakeem and the Rockets in the WCF after going 5-1 vs them in the regular season.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Just like the Spurs dominated Hakeem and the Rockets in the WCF after going 5-1 vs them in the regular season.

I'm too young to remember the days of basketball when they played division rivals 6 times a year instead of 4, tbh

that WCF was tricky though, there was no HCA because both crowds traveled to the extent that both arenas were 50/50 in terms of fan support in either stadium. Spurs had the better team but the Rockets had the best player and that was that.

[ambchang]

Just like the Spurs dominated Hakeem and the Rockets in the WCF after going 5-1 vs them in the regular season.

Maybe because rodman decided to hang under the basket getting rebounds leaving Horry wide open possession after possession making the spurs play 4 on 5 defence. Then Rodman would launch six threes in a half in a game but refusing to shoot wide open layups in others to spite the team while Vinny del negro would pass up open threes because he’s too chicken and Avery Johnson just can’t shoot anything outside of six feet, making the spurs play 2 on 5 on offence.

[baseline bum]

Maybe because rodman decided to hang under the basket getting rebounds leaving Horry wide open possession after possession making the spurs play 4 on 5 defence. Then Rodman would launch six threes in a half in a game but refusing to shoot wide open layups in others to spite the team while Vinny del negro would pass up open threes because he’s too chicken and Avery Johnson just can’t shoot anything outside of six feet, making the spurs play 2 on 5 on offence.

It was three threes in the first quarter of Game 2, after that Hill benched that got.

[ambchang]

It was three threes in the first quarter of Game 2, after that Hill benched that got.

Sorry. Thought about manute bol.

[TDfan2007]

LOL I was listening to Bill Simmons the other day and he kept talking about how good that team was like it was the same team that got hot to end 2012, which actually was an amazing Spurs team. That 2011 Spurs team got fat on early season wins before falling off ing hard in March and April like they were exhausted or maybe just not capable of shifting to a higher gear once the rest of the league did in March. I think the only playoff team in the west they could have won a series against that year would have been the Hornets. That team was so out of gas and done by April and Memphis knew it and thus tanked to face them like you said. Easily the worst Spurs team Duncan ever played on.

2011 Spurs were awful defensively by previous standards and had no inside presence since TD pretty much looked done that year.

Manu and Tony picked up the slack offensively, but nobody could cover for Tim's defensive deficiencies until Kawhi came in and Tiago developed

[Neo.]

2011 Spurs were awful defensively by previous standards and had no inside presence since TD pretty much looked done that year.

Manu and Tony picked up the slack offensively, but nobody could cover for Tim's defensive deficiencies until Kawhi came in and Tiago developed

tbqh i dont think it was so much a matter of tim having defensive deficiencies, as opposed to how star players now could just cakewalk to the paint, without a guy like bruce bowen to make them work. kawhi refilled that role, and tim went right back to being arguably the best defensive big in the NBA

[Millennial_Messiah]

tbqh i dont think it was so much a matter of tim having defensive deficiencies, as opposed to how star players now could just cakewalk to the paint, without a guy like bruce bowen to make them work. kawhi refilled that role, and tim went right back to being arguably the best defensive big in the NBA

Yup. Not just Kawhi, but also LDN. When adjusted for pace of possession in the early 2010s compared to the 2000s, the DRtg (rather than going by mere PPG) was better in the Wing Stop era than in the Bowen + whoever at the other wing position (Smitty/Jax/Turkey/Barry/Brown/Finley/RMJ et al.) era. And + Choo-Choo was just an awful combo, not to mention the turd towers.

Pelicans just made it 2-2, making my thread *potentially* relevant again.