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shout out to Chinook and FireMicoHalili for helping inspire this thread.
I hate draft and stash. Some of y'all already know. And this thread is eventually intended to relate to that. But first i need some info...
What happened after the 07 championship? I was a fan back then, but i can't say i had an expert eye at the time. I speculate that the Spurs window was shut after that 07 championship until the grizz splashed water in the face of the sleeping giant. The giant was dreaming up faith in scrubs and draft mistakes. I think some of those same mistakes are still being made, just on a smaller scale. I know hindsight is 20/20, but try to figure out if hindsight was really necessary. I'm gonna go at this from Big, wing, point perspective.
Big. Pop and RC gave Mahinmi the Splitter treatment? Horry, Thomas, Oberto, and Elson were such good scrubs? No faith in Mahinmi, and captain of the Oberto/Thomas and eventually Blair/Bonner/McD ship. All the way down. Draft of Hill over Pekovic, Asik, or Deandre Jordan? No roster moves to keep Gooden? Ratliff and Tolliver instead of bringing in whatever stasher of the time, if there was one? Continued faith in Bonner? Faith in a dwarf bumble bee with bad wings? The grizz slap in the face finally got Splitter from neglected stasher and ignored bencher to desperately played, thank God for desperation! Maybe stashers should be roster'd and played more often? See line one of Big. Take note for pg.
Wing. This one is tough. Age and injury seem to have affected this one most? I actually think Pop and RC handled this one sorta decent, but i do have a pre-hindsight problem. Manu, Bowen, Finley. Was Hairston really that bad? If you're gonna target scrubs like RJ, Mason Jr, and Bogans. Why not just keep Bowen and Finley until the wheels fall off? Rotate in Hairston more, take a chance on drafted youth and old faithfuls. Greens and Neals are still on the way, Anderson too. And scrubs will always be there. Why the lack of faith in Hairston, while so much priority in scrubs? We all know the Spurs don't care much about wing, and i love that about them. Big and point are the most important. They've done a decent enough job of keeping the position stocked with guys who can 3 and D. The RJ experiment started off with great promise, but Bowen was too high a cost. And not bringing Bowen back was just as dumb. RJ wasn't completely awful, but he was not a winner no hindsight necessary. And eventually, the grizz loss reminded the spurs that they screwed up with Bowen. They hung Bowens number, dumped RJ, and beautifully killed 2 birds with a single stone by ending the Parker or Hill debate with a trade for the ultimate 3 and D guy.
Pg. George Hill. I've pretty much said this one already. Did anybody in here see the real potential in Pekovic, Asik, or Jordan before that draft? I bet some did. Here's another question, were Barry, Stoudemire, or Vaughn so terrible? This i honestly don't know. What was Speedy Claxton doing at the time? Wait, i'm looking at that draft right now... the Spurs passed on 3 bigs who turned out good. They end up with Dragic in the 2nd! They had to see that coming. They had to know Hill over 3 bigs with potential, when they can draft Dragic, was very potentially stupid. But still, no faith in him Dragic, he must have wanted to play right away or something? So he gets shipped for a player i actually like, but they never seemed to. And the best help Timmy gets is Oberto, Thomas, Bonner, Tolliver until Gooden falls in the lap. Where was Mahinmi? Where was the stash? Timmy is a 5 who wants to be a 4 and help is old, undrafted, undesired! Plus the Spurs are passing on sexy first round bigs, for a position they can adequately fill in the second. And they make trades but only to bring in a wing they can't properly put to work.
This is the kinda epic nap that precedes a team good enough to win 1 seed and sleepy enough to lose to the 8 seed. I bet we could follow the trend with the Mavs and Heat, maybe even the same trend in those teams taking such stupid moves to heart. Then winning championships of their own. Funny enough, it happened to the Sonics and they almost got a chip. Except they had to face the 72 win Bulls. The Bulls just had it happen to them, as well. Maybe there's something to this Gasol signing? http://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/...s-nba-playoffs
Last edited by DrunkTXLabrat; 07-31-2014 at 01:26 PM.
shout out to Chinook and FireMicoHalili for helping inspire this thread.
I'd just say...write a similar narrative about your own life.
Then, compare and contrast successes, failures and lessons learned.
"F my life"
my most beautiful contributions are buried by those who would rather launch personal attacks than further build on something beautiful.
Mahinmi is an absolutely terrible basketball player.
I'm almost certain in 2009 or 2010 or both that Manu was injured during the postseason.
2008 was the Lakers year. Beating prime Gasol and near prime Bryant wasn't possible.
Spurs played the Hill draft perfectly. They drafted a combo guard with good length and athleticism, groomed him into the solid role player he is, and sold high before they had to pay him the big bucks for a player with much more potential.
maybe they didn't intend to do that when they drafted Hill, but that's a pretty textbook way to turn a late first round pick into a franchise player assuming you have the right scouts and player development.
Or we could be paying Jordan, Asik, or Pek the absurd amounts of money they are currently making...
BSF with the goods.
Also, we got a stashed player out of it, too.
So you're saying Barry, Vaughn, Stoudemire were significantly more done from the season before Hill to after?
Re-aquiring Claxton was out of the question? and even if not, Claxton would have been hurt, too expensive, or not as good as Hill?
Figuring on being able to draft Dragic in the second wasn't logical, there would have been no trade possibility?
Tim didn't need a 1st round caliber big to help do work in the post? Even if Tim did, the guys the spurs passed on went on to command contracts so big that the Spurs were better off not having such potentially overpaid help?
Hill was the optimal pick in the first, and there was no debate necessary? It's pointless to think about today? History never repeats, talk of history needs to be dismissed? Hill went on to become Leonard and that was 100% Spurs skill, no Pacer incompetence or Spurs shooting for dinner and hitting an oil deposit? All of this is what you think, and coin calls it the goods?
How do you feel about Splitter? How did you feel about Splitter his rookie season? And what did you think of Splitter before he was brought over?
Especially not when outside of Tim and an ancient Horry, the other bigs are Oberto, Thomas, Bonner. I speculate the Spurs needed an eager young athlete who could ease some of the defensive and boarding demand. Not some guy off the scrap heap. I'm talking about a promising drafted player that shouldn't be playing overseas or collecting dust on the bench.
No, 2008 was the Celtics year. Even if Spurs beat LA, Boston would have destroyed us in the Final. Celtics were by far the best team in the league - just too deep for anyone.
It's possible(as evidenced by the Celtics stomping on them in the Finals)...just not with an injured Ginobili. Also, Spurs bench was paper thin that year. All the role players that were useful in '07 saw a massive decline the year after. It's why we struggled so much against a Chris Paul Hornets team in the 2nd round.
If we won game one in 08 when the Spurs had a 20 plus lead they had as hot in the series, after they blew that lead and lost game one it was pretty much a wrap. I remember the announcers saying that was the Spurs best shot to steal a game in the series and they blew it tonight, I laughed at the time of that comment but in the end they were right on that game and the series. Spurs had the Barry foul too that series which could have tied it up 2-2, if they steal game one they might have been up 3-1 if things fall, but instead we know how it went.
I agree LA was tough that year and if we pass them by some chance I bet Boston beats the Spurs in those finals.
Boston would have whipped the Spurs ass that year, agreed.
Splitter >>>>>> Mahinmi obviously, if that's what you're asking.. not trying to be rude
Ian Mahinmi is trash. He's been a ty backup ever since he left here and has done nothing of note, so not sure what the point of bringing him up is tbh
Roleplayers got old and were done, similarly to what has happened to Miami's this year. No big conspiracy or a surprise here.
Mahinmi was raw ( still is ), just an athlete with a lacking basketball brain who was getting 10+ fouls per game in summer league. Splitter is an actual basketball player who needed a year of transition not only for basketball but for personal reasons as well after his sister tragically passed away. It's incredible how people don't understand some players need time to gel. Besides, looking at today's NBA it's almost unseen for two centers to be able to co-exist on the floor without hurintg the team, which Duncan and Splitter eventually managed to do. It takes time.
Pekovic didn't want to be drafted in the first round and be bound to the rookie scale, he's said as much himself. At the time he even said he might not be interested in coming to the NBA at all. No reason to draft Asik or Jordan for the Spurs - they can't play with Duncan and the Spurs already had a much better player in the pipeline. Seriously, after the Hill-Leonard deal I'm surprised anyone would bring such an argument...
Yes. 5 years later he's scoring 8 PPG on 40% shooting in the Turkish league bad. Real bad.
Bowen and Finley were done. Bowen retired, no team would pick him up even for the min - this should tell you something. Finley actually played until the beyond the wheels had fallen off. Check out his last season with the Spurs and his desire to be traded, then his Boston's games. TOSB.
Yes they were - check their numbers for their teams after they left the Spurs - oh no you can't, cause no one wanted them. ( Actually Barry played one last season with Houston, but the less it's said about it the better ).
Dragic was selected for the Suns after a pre-arranged deal. He was not the Spurs' own pick - the Suns told them who they should draft. He was never in the Spurs plans.
Gooden was beyond terrible on the Spurs and he's been terrible since leaving. Ditto Tolliver - a poor man's Bonner.
Waiting for his contract's clause to allow the Spurs to bring him over.
What? Still on that george Hill for Leonard thing?
The Spurs found the fountain of youth precisely because they drafted and stashed wisely and because they were raiding the D-League and 2nd round picks relentlessly until they've struck gold with Green ( helped by Anderson's unfortunate career altering injury ). They drafted extremely well and were able to turn their draft picks into 2 starters - Leonard and Splitter. They also used the FA market excellently by getting great fits like Diaw and Mills.
P.S. I'm actually surprised at the omission of James White! in this post, tbh.
And yet, warts and all, he was a better option for the front line than Matt Bonner, Kurt Thomas, Drew Gooden, Anthony Tolliver, Austin Croshere, and the eventual corpse of Antonio McDyess. Mahinmi was a below-average big, it's true, but his lack of use on the Spurs was emblematic of Pop's refusal to use traditional centers alongside Tim Duncan for nearly six years. See Eddie Murphy's bit about the starving man and the cracker. At one point, the Spurs were so thin on the front line we were excited by the play of Pops Mensah-Bonsu, for Christ's sake. It's not because he's a great player, it's because the Spurs were so desperately in need of a big to play at his natural position alongside Duncan.
Hindsight makes it perfectly obvious that Pop's version of smallball was a dismal failure and nearly drove Tim Duncan into the ground. It's funny: after all the jokes we made about Tiago Splitter being the savior of the Spurs, it turned out to actually be true. They likely only drafted him because he fell that far in the draft, and Pop was eventually forced to use him, and playoff success magically returned to the team.
God bless you!
....will always be yours; so if somebody else wants to bury them, that's their loss. They're not the only ones judging the beauty contest.
Don't sell yourself short!!!
I think it's interesting that Bruce Bowen's 5 best years in the NBA were also 3 of the 5 years in which SA won the le. Getting KL has changed the landscape of the Spurs lineup and returned us to the status of a playoff elite. Kawhi plays the Bruce role for us defensively, and it's no coincidence that the Spurs are back to being a very, very tough team to beat in a 7 game series since Kawhi has settled into his role. Pop has redesigned the offense, brought in role players that excel in the Spurs system, and overall improved his schemes and coaching I would say, but you can basically point to '03-'07 being the years of Bruce, and '13 onward being the years of Kawhi, in my opinion, as being the difference between the Spurs being a great regular season team to being an elite, championship caliber, playoff warrior team.
The one thing I never understood completely is Bowen.
We won the le in 2007 with him being a key part of that le, next season he played all regular season games, has been NBA all defensive first team, he had a serious shot at getting dpoty award. Then 2008 Lakers happened but it was one serie and Bryant was just on fire during that serie. Next season he comes off the bench but played an healthy 20 mn per game during again all regular season... no injury no nothing. Yeah he fell down a bit that year but don't tell me dude was not good enough to see minutes the year after with the 2009-2010 roster full of the centerpiece and ing finley in a wheel chair.
I believe Bowen could have played one or two more years imho in a limited role of course but he would have been more than useful especially compared to dude like Keith ing Bogans....
Or maybe the Spurs FO knew he was falling off an edge and he knew it too.
Well what happened to the spurs was age. Horry was 37, Bowen was 36, and Barry was 36 after the 07 Championship. And they only combined to play 3 more years of basketball between them. Losing those key role players so suddenly meant we had to completely rebuild our cast quickly. We made some bad decisions--the RJ signing, the Nesterovic signing, and relying on Ian Mahimi, but ultimately it was the loss of those role players and injuries that served to derail the spurs run.
I think the biggest reason the Spurs were able to turn it all around was their offensive philosophy changing more than their personnel. If you go back and watch the 07 Finals you'll just want to jab your eyes out with an ice pick. TP, Manu, and TD were all great, but the Spurs as a whole weren't nearly as good. The 2014 Spurs would have annihilated the 2007 Spurs. Everyone loves to give Kawhi and Danny credit for turning the Spurs around--but the Spurs really turned around a year before their arrival in 2011. That year the Spurs secured the #1 seed in the West going into the playoffs, with only a decent cast of role players surrounding the Big 3 in RJ, Mcdyess, and Hill.
Last edited by TheyCallMePro; 08-05-2014 at 06:42 PM.
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