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impressive.
Anyone who says he's not a top 5 all time player is insane IMO.
Pretty impressive advanced stats for Duncan from a career perspective.
Regular Season:
- #13 in PER
- #2 in Drating behind Gar Heard
- #2 in DWS behind Russell
- #6 in WS
- #12 in WS/48
- #13 in boxscore +/-
- #6 in defensive BSPM
- #7 in VORP
Playoffs:
- Ranked #2 in WS behind Jordan. Note that Lebron James is already #4 on the list, which is insane
- #2 in DWS behind Russell
- #8 in OWS
- #8 in WS/48
- #7 in PER
- #14 in D-Rating
While these are not hard rankings of a player, advance stats do provide a directionally correct way of evaluating a player. Duncan is pretty much top 20 in all of these metrics, with the exception of OWS in the regular season.
impressive.
Anyone who says he's not a top 5 all time player is insane IMO.
lol Kobe
What about him
He's a lock for the hall of fame, imo.
People putting him top 5 (or even top 10 is very suspect)
But WS is not a ulative stat, right? So it could just as easily go up or down in the remainder of his career? I just wondered why you emphasized "already."
Top 5 arguments certainly can be made, even though I may not agree fully with them. Anything less than top 10 is stupid.
Incorrect. WS/48 is not ulative. WS is.
It's not unreasonable to place him 11-15.
Edit: Ah, thanks for the clarification on WS.
It is a ulative stat, it will only go up from this point on.
WS/48, on the other hand, could go up or down. I believe Lebron is tops or top 2 in that category.
There is no argument that has Kobe in the top 5. None.
Tough to make him top 5.
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Lebron
are all modern players who are undoubtedly better than Kobe.
Then older timers such as Wilt and Russell who are also definitely better.
This puts Kobe at #12.
Arguments could be made for Thomas, Dr. J and West, which puts Kobe at the 12 to 15 range, and that is him with the benefit of playing on some of the most loaded teams of their years.
Timmy the GAWD.
Monster stats combined with 5 rings against some tough compe ion are a pretty good starting point tbh.
All of the bolded can have arguments to be bumped behind him for various, good reasons.
none of those have truly legit arguments above Kobe, especially Russell, Dr J, West, and Isiah.
At some point we're going to have to split the shares. The term "modern" being applied to people who played 35 years go but not 45 years ago is cherry picking, unless NBA rules are being considered. At some point we're going to need a middle category between early NBA and "modern".
Other than scoring, I won't say any of his stats were monstrous. And even then, they came in an inefficient manner.
Kobe's advanced stats were great, just not top 10 all time material, let alone top 5.
And of the 5 rings, three were won as a clear side kick to Shaq during the tough compe ion period. The other two were won in a very weak era of basketball, during a transition period when talent was essentially consolidated to two teams (The Lakers and the Celtics).
I can't see arguments over Magic, even most Kobestans rank Magic as the best Laker of all time.
Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Lebron and Moses all had way higher peaks than Kobe ever did, where they combined their individual dominance and led their teams to success. Kobe puts up his best stats on losing team that had mediocre support (not horrible, but definitely not championship winning).
Individual awards-wise, all the those players were more accomplished than Kobe.
Stats-wise, all those players exceed Kobe. Same with Advanced Stats.
Russell is getting severely underrated. Yes, he didn't score a lot, but he was one of earliest great passing big men in the game. His outlet passes were phenomenal. His defense was one of the best of all time, and the Celtics built a dynasty based on those two skills.
Dr. J had his prime with the ABA. He had great advanced stats, was an underrated rebounder and defender. People remember Dr. J as that old creak supporting Moses to a championship, and they forgot his early days with Philly leading a talented but flawed team deep into the playoffs.
West was one of the greatest ever, and it's sad that his game is not appreciated today. he had great range, passes extremely well, and was one of the first superstars who can man the PG and SG positions He puts up similar stats as Kobe, had way better advanced stats, led his team deep into the playoffs only to be stopped by a Celtics Dynasty that had 8 HoFers. Yes, he's an old-timer, but he was great.
Oh, and I forgot the Big O, the guy put up monsters in the early stages of the league. he is the Wilt and Russell camp, so Kobe is top #13, at best if you could the old timers, and #10 if you don't.
I personally define it as pre/post ABA
This gook really has no life outside ST
So why doesn't Jordan's rings get discounted since he won in a weak era? Why not Russell's? How does Dr. J get ranked ahead when most of his career was played in a weak ABA?
I don't know many Kobestans at all who rank Magic ahead of Kobe, considering 99% of them rank Kobe ahead of MJ.
True... then again, individual awards-wise, Nash has more MVPs than Shaq and Dirk, but I certainly wouldn't say he's greater than either of those by any means.
lol picking and choosing again
No one said anything about scoring being a knock on him. Just that he wouldn't have won all those les leading a team in any era since the 80's. He would have been lucky to get more than 2-3. He dominated in some of the worst eras of basketball where basically 75% of the good talent in the league ended up all stacked on his team in a league with 8 teams.yeah real impressive
Good player who dominated among weak compe ion, never really proved he was truly top 10 all-time material against elite compe ion. Very good, but you're overrating him.
Again, very good player against weak compe ion in weak eras of basketball, and as you put it, the one good team that he ran up against, he couldn't do anything against them. Good guy to watch and learn basics of basketball from, but does he put up such monster numbers in more compe ive eras? Highly doubtful.
Early stages, AGAIN being the key word.
These guys are all great, transcendent players of the NBA, and the game wouldn't be what it is without them, no question about it. But it doesn't mean that they are superior to modern talent either. To illustrate, it would be like ranking how good light bulbs are, and saying that the original light bulbs that Edison invented are superior to the highly efficient LED bulbs of today, when they in no way are. Granted, we wouldn't have these fantastic LED bulbs if Edison hadn't gotten things started with his bulb, but that doesn't make it superior to modern bulbs. It's called progression and innovation, and it's not limited to technology, it very much applies to skills and talents as well, such as basketball.
This whole Kobe debate thing is tiring, but I'm glad some of the finer points in this thread we're not made by a Laker fan, props to Phillip.
I'm not some huge Kobe fan, and I think he gets terribly overrated by some. But he's not as bad as many here make him out to be.
I really don't know why I even bother arguing with ambchang considering he is about as illogical of a Kobe hater as it gets. Then again, at least he can somewhat bring a decent (although heavily flawed) argument to the table, unlike other morons such as Cry Havoc.
Saying Kobe gets terribly overrated by some. Argues Kobe is top 5 ever.
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