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  1. #626
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    Um... So you're being disingenuous as right now. You're trying to cherry-pick defensive win-shares because that's the only stat that's even close. Simmons basically laps DJM in the other defensive stats. , if you control for minutes, Simmons' gap over Murray in DWS is just as big. What makes it even funnier is that you can see how by those same metrics, Simmons is a WAY better offensive player than Murray is, despite Ben not being able to shoot.

    Again, floating boats, found remotes and all that. But no, there's not an objective case for Simmons being down to Murray's or anyone else's on the team's level. White's the only one remotely close. You have to cherry-pick stats and take them out of context to even start coming to that idea.
    What stats if you see defensive rebound% steal% they are all close. I will give you blk%. DWS is about how many wins you get for your team how is it cherry picking? It's about overall influence base on defence. You avoided some many points, like I said Ben is going to earn $30m to $40m and could not be counted as the go to guy and crunch time, why don't you defend that? His mental weakness? His non-development in the past 4 years? Who is cherry picking here? You zoomed in him as all NBA defense player DjM was also an all defensive player. I raised so many points that you just skirt around to try and win your point, I will just leave it as that.

  2. #627
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.

    I've brought up similar variations. I'd be steadfast on protecting top one throughout and would prefer a '25 1st to a '24 1st because of the possibility of the Bulls '25 1st.

    Outside of that, I agree it's not that much when factoring in the likelihood of those picks becoming mid-lateish lottery ones.

    I'd rather give up a Walker IV and a lesser 1st (like the Suns protected '24) than Vassell, who's importance would increase exponentially with an expedited timeline.


    Presuming relative health, of course.
    I changed the '24 1st to the Bulls 2025 1st in an updated trade scenario a few posts later. Three firsts, including a potentially high 2022 1st and a couple of far out firsts, isn't a bad haul for Philly. That said, Murray and Walker probably isn't going to help Philly win a championship, so that's a concern.

    I agree, I'd much rather give up Walker an first than Vassell.

  3. #628
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    I don’t actually believe there is an ounce to truth to this but let’s just hope Brian Wright knows he is trading for Ben Simmons and not Jonathon.

  4. #629
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    Um... So you're being disingenuous as right now..
    Talk about disingenuous. Embiid’s defensive impact has no effect on Simmons numbers. Got it.

  5. #630
    BOlieve manufan10's Avatar
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    "Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

    Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
    What Pounding the Rock says:

    Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos"

    https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/...spurs-warriors

  6. #631
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    "Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

    Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
    What Pounding the Rock says:

    Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos"

    https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/...spurs-warriors
    Gross, no thanks. Having to start Walker or Forbes.

  7. #632
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    To me, the most important factor in trading for BS is not the stats, but answering the question: "will he accept playing here?" It would surely mean that Pop sticks around because no way BS comes over right as we get a new coach. I'm ok with Pop sticking around if he can focus his energy on coaxing whatever he can out of BS. BS is obviously flawed, but that's the only kind of star we are going to get.

    If the Spurs could avoid trading White, and give up DJM and only two of Poetl, Walker, Vassel, or Luka, and no more than 1 of our own 1st round picks, I think it makes something to strongly consider, especially if he is ok playing for Pop in SA.

    And lastly, from an asset perspective, which is typically floundered by the FO, but regardless, if he comes here to get rehabilitated, so to speak, and ups his value somehow, and doesn't want to stick around but then we can trade him, it's an unusual scenario to consider. Being Klutch, it would likely be a screw job like with how they got the Brow out of New Orleans, but it's another way to consider the trade: can we get more for him then we gave up? I'm not overly enthusiastic about this as an approach, but it should be considered. Again, it centers around will he play here and how much do we have to give up. Just throwing around ideas. If someone is triggered by this, talk to your therapist.

    Lastly, as for his limitations, I think the fanbase should accept that he is likely the best we can get in a trade. And if the FO fully built around him, well, at least it's finally a direction.

  8. #633
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    "Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

    Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
    What Pounding the Rock says:

    Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos"

    https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/...spurs-warriors
    Sports media trying really, really hard to generate a market for Ben Simmons. Ludicrous.

  9. #634
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    "Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

    Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
    What Pounding the Rock says:

    Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos"

    https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/...spurs-warriors
    Nah, still think the framework of the deal is Murray, Walker, Amino, and protected 1st.

    Unless 1. Embid is suddenly cool with a deal featuring future picks, and/or 2. SAC or MIN come off their insistence of not including one of their best players, Spurs really don’t have incentive to add more.

    Just sit back and wait for that uncomfortable Philly training camp.

  10. #635
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    "Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

    Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
    What Pounding the Rock says:

    Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos"

    https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/...spurs-warriors
    I'd do this deal if the pick is Chicago's.

    Probably ask for Paul Reed back, as Philly have 13 guaranteed contracts anyway (14 with Reed's non-guaranteed).

    Spurs would need another trade for a starting PG after this one.

  11. #636
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    BS is obviously flawed, but that's the only kind of star we are going to get.
    This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

    Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

    Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.

  12. #637
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

    Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

    Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.
    I think it's more insane that a lot of you are fine with the current roster. Newsflash my guy - we have already been settled in mediocrity for years. We have no top prospects and no guys that look like they have all star potential. How some of you think standing pat and doing nothing is better than taking a gamble is beyond me.

  13. #638
    what uganda do about it? Joseph Kony's Avatar
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    Sports media trying really, really hard to generate a market for Ben Simmons. Ludicrous.
    How stupid are you? yeah man, 29 teams in the league have 0 interest in a young 3 time all-star that was second in DPOY voting last year. stfu already dude. we get it, you're top sniffer #1, and you know exactly what our FO and all other FOs in the league are thinking, and every conversation here about potential trades is stupid, because we have our savior bryn forbes.

    you consistently post some of the tiest sniffer takes on ST. If you dont want to talk about Simmons then off already and make some more ty "you son of a i'm in!" threads

  14. #639
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

    Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

    Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.
    I mean, we can hope to luck into getting a flawed star through the draft at around the 7-13 seed, or at least someone we hope to develop. But that’s still mediocrity. Or hope we get a generational talent through the draft if we get a higher pick, but that’s still a passive/waiting approach. It sometimes works but it’s uncertainty also.

  15. #640
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    How stupid are you? yeah man, 29 teams in the league have 0 interest in a young 3 time all-star that was second in DPOY voting last year. stfu already dude. we get it, you're top sniffer #1, and you know exactly what our FO and all other FOs in the league are thinking, and every conversation here about potential trades is stupid, because we have our savior bryn forbes.

    you consistently post some of the tiest sniffer takes on ST. If you dont want to talk about Simmons then off already and make some more ty "you son of a i'm in!" threads
    Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

    What a bunch of weepy slap s you all are.


  16. #641
    what uganda do about it? Joseph Kony's Avatar
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    Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

    What a bunch of weepy slap s you all are.

    Mrs. Body
    "you son of a , I'm in!"
    Forbes was a good signing
    consistently ty takes
    biggest sniffer on the forum
    low IQ re

    The opinion of a sniffer like you means jack . You did some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize the Primo pick and you applauded the Bryn Forbes signing and you have the audacity to try and talk anyone else here? You're a ing clown

    You literally have ZERO clue what the Spurs are doing or thinking so shut your got ass up and quit pretending like you know anything you ing re . Stick to what you know and go fluff PATFO ballsacks in another thread and leave the trade discussions to posters who actually want to discuss it.

  17. #642
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    Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

    What a bunch of weepy slap s you all are.

    You sure?

  18. #643
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
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    Nielsen is now on the bench. He's an Aussie. Getting ready to add an Aussie player?

  19. #644
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    I think it's more insane that a lot of you are fine with the current roster. Newsflash my guy - we have already been settled in mediocrity for years.
    Which part of my post implied that I'm "fine" with the current roster? I specifically said the roster is closer to a tank than it is to complimenting a flawed player like Simmons into anything other than first round fodder. You walked head-into the false dichotomy I talked about, of wanting to trade for Simmons just to "do something!!!" ignoring there's multiple avenues for improvement that don't involve trading for such a headcase and wasting our picks in the process. And further, you acknowledge we've been mediocre for years, yet want to go back there.... Stockholm syndrome, all too real...

    We have no top prospects and no guys that look like they have all star potential. How some of you think standing pat and doing nothing is better than taking a gamble is beyond me.
    Disagree, Keldon perfectly has the potential and game to make an AS team, especially coming off a Gold medal campaign. But I don't disagree with your overarching point. What is beyond me is why you think the only other option is "standing pat and doing nothing", both when that hasn't been the Spurs FO's MO this off-season, and when it hasn't been the sentiment of fans around the forum, tbh. Truly a strawman.

    Think of it like this: Simmons couldn't get it done on a team with an MVP level player, an All-Star level wing, and good roleplayers to support him; how would the Spurs build a roster that exceeds this level of help and gets the Spurs somewhere (meaningful), when they'll already have to sacrifice multiple of what little assets they have, in order to get Simmons in the first place? Walk me through it, 'cause I'm not seeing it, tbh.

  20. #645
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    Pound that rock, Benny boi

  21. #646
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    If he keeps lowering his value maybe we can trade Thad + Jakob + Aminu for him lol

  22. #647
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Mrs. Body
    "you son of a , I'm in!"
    Forbes was a good signing
    consistently ty takes
    biggest sniffer on the forum
    low IQ re

    The opinion of a sniffer like you means jack . You did some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize the Primo pick and you applauded the Bryn Forbes signing and you have the audacity to try and talk anyone else here? You're a ing clown

    You literally have ZERO clue what the Spurs are doing or thinking so shut your got ass up and quit pretending like you know anything you ing re . Stick to what you know and go fluff PATFO ballsacks in another thread and leave the trade discussions to posters who actually want to discuss it.
    Bro, you got nuthin honey if you're screaming in a pipsqueak rage while thinking this tread ain't fulla 1000% Texas horse and steer mixed together.

    Just absolute slap thread, every one. Just a joke.

  23. #648
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Pound that rock, Benny boi
    Ben Simmons is like trying to pass around chlamydia. Only Minnesota wants to jump on that .

  24. #649
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    I mean, we can hope to luck into getting a flawed star through the draft at around the 7-13 seed, or at least someone we hope to develop. But that’s still mediocrity. Or hope we get a generational talent through the draft if we get a higher pick, but that’s still a passive/waiting approach. It sometimes works but it’s uncertainty also.
    The Spurs are above-average at drafting, pretty elite by most accounts, so building through the draft is less of a "luck" plan and more of a developmental one (well, as much as the draft can be predicted/analyzed anyways I guess, there's always gonna be a Fultz or Darko in most drafts) for them. And again, the current roster is much closer to joining the tank race after the AS-break than it is to fighting for a play-in anyways, so barring a miraculous jump from one of our youngings, we probably won't have to depend on "getting lucky around the 7-13 seed".

    My quarrel is exactly with the mentality in your second sentence, about seeing the draft as a "passive" approach that's somehow inherently worse than an "active" approach would be. Look how most trade-hungry teams and FOs end up; the Morey Rockettes, the Ainge Celtics, the Presti Thunder... All end up imploding and over-trading their way into corners. Not saying the Spurs would be like that in this case, just saying it's disingenuous to look down on drafting as a strategy for success, especially considering SanAn's market and ability to attract FOs.

    If we were Miami, I'd go "yeah sure, get Simmons and some other stars will want to join him, the pieces will fall into place for us". But it isn't. The uncertainty of the draft is a necessary evil for small market, star-deprived teams. And as I told the other poster, it's not like Simmons alone will get the Spurs anywhere but the mediocrity we've finally escaped this off-season, so given we lack other tradeable assets beyond our picks (and it'd be superbly dumb of the FO to mortgage our own picks on an unproven core), I don't see Simmons in SanAn as a positive for anyone involved.

  25. #650
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Which part of my post implied that I'm "fine" with the current roster? I specifically said the roster is closer to a tank than it is to complimenting a flawed player like Simmons into anything other than first round fodder. You walked head-into the false dichotomy I talked about, of wanting to trade for Simmons just to "do something!!!" ignoring there's multiple avenues for improvement that don't involve trading for such a headcase and wasting our picks in the process. And further, you acknowledge we've been mediocre for years, yet want to go back there.... Stockholm syndrome, all too real...



    Disagree, Keldon perfectly has the potential and game to make an AS team, especially coming off a Gold medal campaign. But I don't disagree with your overarching point. What is beyond me is why you think the only other option is "standing pat and doing nothing", both when that hasn't been the Spurs FO's MO this off-season, and when it hasn't been the sentiment of fans around the forum, tbh. Truly a strawman.

    Think of it like this: Simmons couldn't get it done on a team with an MVP level player, an All-Star level wing, and good roleplayers to support him; how would the Spurs build a roster that exceeds this level of help and gets the Spurs somewhere (meaningful), when they'll already have to sacrifice multiple of what little assets they have, in order to get Simmons in the first place? Walk me through it, 'cause I'm not seeing it, tbh.

    Not really a point in walking you through it, because clearly we see things very differently in how the Spurs should approach their uncertain future. And that's fine. But I think you are vastly overestimating my value of Simmons. I never said gut the entire roster for him or trade 4 first rounders like Morey wants. I also don't think he is an MVP level player that would be some kind of franchise savior. Nor do I want the Spurs to acquire him just to "do something."

    I think a lot of people here are severely underrating Simmons now because of a recent poor showing in the playoffs. He isn't a three time all-star and DPOY runner up because he's trash. His game does have limitations, and maybe he has been unwilling to work on that. But even still, he is an elite defensive player with elite playmaking skills that raises the floor of our roster. I don't think the Spurs should bend over backwards in a trade for him, but when you have a young all-star locked into a long term contract that fits the age of your core and wants out from his current team, you make an attempt to get him. Yes, we need to be thinking about the future, but the first step to becoming a better team is ac ulating talent.

    A lot of the negativity comes from the idea that Simmons is a headcase and a diva or whatever, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I also think guys understand how they are perceived in the league and I think they care about it. Id also point out that we only really see one side of the argument because of the media. Remember when Kawhi wanted out and SA was getting torn to shreds by the media because kawhi controlled the narrative? Fans of other teams were ting on us too because of it. Can't rule out the Philly media doing the same

    Again, I'm not saying go all in and do whatever it takes to get Simmons. But if you can get him for some combo of Murray/Walker/Young/1st? You do that all day. IMO. I want our team to get better, and I think players would be more willing to come to a team with an all-star guy that they know will feed them the rock.
    Last edited by Leetonidas; 09-08-2021 at 05:13 PM.

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