Game Grades: San Antonio Spurs @ Washington Wizards 11/26/2016

[GSH]

And if that's the case, maybe we should all explicitly establish a standard for what adequate/average play is supposed to grade out as.

Heh. You remember when I brought this up before, and you said that anyone who isn't trolling knows that the grades are adjusted for the expectations for each player. I wasn't trolling then, and I'm not now. Lots of people don't see the grades that way. Lap, for instance, is a deep bench 3rd PG. I'd be happy if he performed like Patty on a so-so night. But he would have to play like a starter to get an "A" from most people here.

Simmons is still an undrafted walk-on who only got a shot because he paid 150 bucks to get a tryout. When he gets 15 points, 4 AST, 2 steals and a block, I call that a pretty good night. I don't think he should be graded down because he didn't play like a 30 year old Manu. The OP sees it differently, and that's fine. But it can't be a surprise when a lot of people disagree.

But then again, put together a Top 10 or even Top 100 list of players, and you're going to have just about everyone screaming that this guy is too high, this guy is too low, and this guy never should have made the list. Game grades are no different.

[Chinook]

Heh. You remember when I brought this up before, and you said that anyone who isn't trolling knows that the grades are adjusted for the expectations for each player. I wasn't trolling then, and I'm not now. Lots of people don't see the grades that way. Lap, for instance, is a deep bench 3rd PG. I'd be happy if he performed like Patty on a so-so night. But he would have to play like a starter to get an "A" from most people here.

But then we're talking about different things. What I has said originally is that non-trolls know that not every player is going to be graded the same, so Kawhi getting 12 points will be graded much more harshly than Bertans getting the same total. I do think everyone knows that to at least some extent.

What I was talking about in this thread was whether an average night would be a C, B, A or somewhere in between. As I said, I curve to a B. But if someone curves to a C, then it's not like they're wrong. And if they do curve to a C, that would make A's much harder to get and C-minuses to Fs easier. If we all just agreed one way or the other, then the grades would probably have less variance and controversy.

You're right though, that there will always be differences in standards. For me, Simmons scoring a handful of points efficiently and not hurting the team on D might warrant a B-minus. But for guys who actually think Jonathon is a good player, then the piss-poor defense he played in the last game might really cost him.

[GSH]

Is he backing down now more than in POR? It seems he can post up anyone, as long as he goes with the turnaround jumper. Backing down hard seems a bit harder for him, maybe he's not that strong. He's also getting in shape through playing. Maybe he'll get better later on the season.

Yeah, I don't really know about now vs. his Portland days. Memory is a tricky thing, and a lot of what I'm talking about doesn't show up in a stat sheet, since he just dumps the ball off to another player. I know the last few games he's had quite a few opportunities that I thought should have been mis-matches, and he's just been pathetic. All he's doing down there is wasting some shot clock before he dumps it off to someone else. It would be one thing if he made the perfect pass and got someone else a wide open shot, but he had zero AST against WAS.

Maybe I'm being too hard on him. Mostly I guess I'm frustrated because he's a 6'11" guy who can't slide to the C when the Spurs have someone hurt. But I guess everyone knew that when they signed him.

[GSH]

But then we're talking about different things. What I has said originally is that non-trolls know that not every player is going to be graded the same, so Kawhi getting 12 points will be graded much more harshly than Bertans getting the same total. I do think everyone knows that to at least some extent.

What I was talking about in this thread was whether an average night would be a C, B, A or somewhere in between. As I said, I curve to a B. But if someone curves to a C, then it's not like they're wrong. And if they do curve to a C, that would make A's much harder to get and C-minuses to Fs easier. If we all just agreed one way or the other, then the grades would probably have less variance and controversy.

You're right though, that there will always be differences in standards. For me, Simmons scoring a handful of points efficiently and not hurting the team on D might warrant a B-minus. But for guys who actually think Jonathon is a good player, then the piss-poor defense he played in the last game might really cost him.

LOL. Is that what we're talking about?

Look - an average night for Kawhi right now is 24 points, 6 boards, 3 AST, and 2 steals. Nobody is going to give Kawhi a "C" for the game if he puts up an "average" (for him) line like that. Nobody. So I don't think the problem is that anyone is "curving to a C". The point is, an average night for one player is very different than for another player, and it just makes sense to adjust the grades accordingly.

In the last game against WAS, Kawhi went 5-14 from the floor, and 1-6 from the 3P line. That kind of inefficiency should get any player graded down. But if I were giving the grades, I probably would have taken into account that he made 10 trips to the FT line, which sort of indicates that they were beating the out of him. The ones that didn't get called likely caused some of those misses. But only one rebound? Yeah, I think it was still a sub-par night for Kawhi. But for most players in the league, that same performance would have been a solid "A", don't you think?

You can argue with me all you want, but when a set of grades gets this much sniping, there's a disconnect somewhere. You call it "curving to a C". Most people call it nitpicking.

[Chinook]

LOL. Is that what we're talking about?

Yes, and the rest of your response indicated as much. We're not disagreeing on whether an average Kawhi outing is better than most players' good outings. You can find different ways to say that, and I can find different ways of agreeing with it, but it won't change anything.

You can argue with me all you want, but when a set of grades gets this much sniping, there's a disconnect somewhere. You call it "curving to a C". Most people call it nitpicking.

I think most people would agree it was a below-average Kawhi outing. For me, that would have gotten a B-minus or C-plus (his defense on Beal was pretty mediocre). But not everyone believes in curving to a B. Some curve to a C or B-plus or whatever. Some people curve based on the result of the game (Can't give a lot of good grades in losses or bad grades in quality wins). Some don't have a standard but still believing in the idea of curving based on expectations.

But almost no one is going to grade Parker on CP3's standard or Green on Harden's. I think we all innately understand that there's a difference there. We're we all differ is in how we see the players in terms of their average performance. You and I might grade Simmons more generously given that he's not a very good player. Some might not see him as that bad and have higher expectations. On top of that, without knowing what standard to use for average performances, it's hard to know what people mean anyway.

What would you grade average performances as?

[GSH]

What would you grade average performances as?

Meh. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. But Kawhi is easily living up to expectations night in and night out. An average performance for him is an A in my book, every time. Maybe if he has a bunch of TO's, or gets his numbers at the expense of other players I might grade that down. But that's not "average" for him.

Kyle, IMO, is under-performing so far this season. An "average" night for him right now, is well below what is expected (and needed) from him. Last season, his points, AST's, and FTA's were about double what he's putting up this season, even though his MPG have only dropped very slightly. So the funny thing is, if Simmons has a game with stats like he had last year, most people would probably give him an "A", just because it's so much better than they way he's been playing. I expected more out of him this year, and not less - and I think PATFO did, too.

Tell you what. Read the OP's write-up of Simmons, which was responsible for the grade he gave. He's talking about who Simmons is, and not how he played. I'm just telling you, that kind of is going to cause a lot of argument over game grades. I don't know if he's right or wrong about the player, but his performance in that game was just about what the team should be hoping for. Sure, I'd like a Sixth Man OTY player in that roster spot. But for Simmons, that was a pretty good performance. And the OP even talks about how that could have been a "D" performance on another night?

You're analyzing why there is such discrepancy over this set of grades, and I think I'm giving you some reasons. We can disagree on that, too, if you want.

[Chinook]

Meh. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. But Kawhi is easily living up to expectations night in and night out. An average performance for him is an A in my book, every time. Maybe if he has a bunch of TO's, or gets his numbers at the expense of other players I might grade that down. But that's not "average" for him.

So now you're saying you don't grade on a curve. I apologize if I had misinterpreted you. I consider giving Kawhi 70 A's in a season to be uninformative, but that's your call. If you ever sign up for a thread, it will be interesting to see how it scores.

So the funny thing is, if Simmons has a game with stats like he had last year, most people would probably give him an "A", just because it's so much better than they way he's been playing. I expected more out of him this year, and not less - and I think PATFO did, too.

That's how curving based on expectations is supposed to work. If Simmons keep getting better, the same performances would score worse and worse. If Simmons becomes the next Westbrook, then no, he's not going to get praise for 15 points and bad defense. Meanwhile if Anderson does that, he'll probably get A's from people until those become the norm for him.

Tell you what. Read the OP's write-up of Simmons, which was responsible for the grade he gave. He's talking about who Simmons is, and not how he played. I'm just telling you, that kind of is going to cause a lot of argument over game grades.

No one should have any issue with there being blow-back about grades. Even I disagreed with them. But I'm going to support the right for people to grade as they see fit unless we can come up with something better. Disagreeing is fine, but lambasting a guy who just took an hour out of his night to do a write up is wrong-headed.

I don't know if he's right or wrong about the player, but his performance in that game was just about what the team should be hoping for. Sure, I'd like a Sixth Man OTY player in that roster spot. But for Simmons, that was a pretty good performance. And the OP even talks about how that could have been a "D" performance on another night?

Simmons was much better in the Warriors game. In this game, his D was pretty spotty. His plus-minus suggests he didn't give it all back on the other end. I am not going to give him a D, but I certain expect him to do better than letting Beal, Wall or Porter score on him at will. I think Spurtacular was thinking that that level of play wouldn't cut it against a better team. He said a couple of times that he thought Washington went into the game knowing they weren't going to win and never really posed a threat.

You're analyzing why there is such discrepancy over this set of grades, and I think I'm giving you some reasons. We can disagree on that, too, if you want.

I was replying to a poster asking if we have standards for grades. I was agreeing that that might help. That would not mean that the grades would line up, but you'd have a better idea of what each grade means if you knew the rubric beforehand.

[GSH]

So now you're saying you don't grade on a curve. I apologize if I had misinterpreted you. I consider giving Kawhi 70 A's in a season to be uninformative, but that's your call. If you ever sign up for a thread, it will be interesting to see how it scores.

I've said the same thing all along. I would base grades on the expectations for each player. And I already said that I would have graded Kawhi down for that last game, didn't I? But, yeah, if the guy puts up 25 points, 6 boards, 3 AST, 2 steals, and a block... and plays good D, which is "average" for him? Yeah, I'm giving him an A. I'm funny that way.

I hope you enjoyed writing the rest of that ing dissertation, because life is just too short to read it all.

Supercilious prick.

[TheDoctor]

...we'll see what TheDoctor shows in his 20-game analysis next week...

So far, I'm just missing the Grades for the Sacto game (Nov 16) assigned to Splits and the Lakers game (Nov 18) assigned to buttsR4rebounding.

Perhaps you guys could lead me to where those Grades are? Links?

Can't find them tbh.

[Chinook]

I've said the same thing all along. I would base grades on the expectations for each player. And I already said that I would have graded Kawhi down for that last game, didn't I? But, yeah, if the guy puts up 25 points, 6 boards, 3 AST, 2 steals, and a block... and plays good D, which is "average" for him? Yeah, I'm giving him an A. I'm funny that way.

I hope you enjoyed writing the rest of that ing dissertation, because life is just too short to read it all.

Supercilious prick.

I feel bad for you sometimes. You act like this guy who can't have a normal conversation without flying off the handle, and I pretty much write you off. Then you drop a nugget here or there that makes me go, "This dude's probably dealing with some real and is just stressed out." I don't know which it is. I hope everything is going well in your life and you just flip out here because it's how you have fun. But whatever it is, it makes it really confusing to interact with you.

I misunderstood you and apologized for it. And you're more than welcomed to sign up for a thread or threads so we can see how your philosophy looks in action. That's all there really is to say about the small part of post that you read.

[Chinook]

So far, I'm just missing the Grades for the Sacto game (Nov 16) assigned to Splits and the Lakers game (Nov 18) assigned to buttsR4rebounding.

Perhaps you guys could lead me to where those Grades are? Links?

Can't find them tbh.

I've been really bad about it lately and will correct it soon, but in the OP of the grade organization threads, the grades are hyperlinked to the time for each line (and the game threads are in the match-up). Just click there for the SAC game to get to Splits' review (it's on the backup site). As far as the Lakers game, I think that's just a miss.

[Spurtacular]

Thanks. Please avoid grading again if you aren't able to give a proper evaluation based on what your eyes see and need a second look everytime.

I'd do it again if for no other reason than to piss your pansy ass off.
And upon further thought, I'm fine with the Simmons B grade. He ran around with no clue of the team defense schematics.

[Spursfanfromafar]

I'd do it again if for no other reason than to piss your pansy ass off.
And upon further thought, I'm fine with the Simmons B grade. He ran around with no clue of the team defense schematics.

Ha ha Seems it is someone else who is pissed off.


Go ahead and give it a good shot. Critique only makes folks better.