View Poll Results: Do we have a losing record cause we are playing DeRozan-Ball?

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  • Yes

    21 44.68%
  • No

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  1. #26
    Unstoppable TDomination's Avatar
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    IMO i would put DDR on the bench. He can go nuts during his 25min off the bench against the other teams 2nd unit.
    STARTERS --> White/Forbes/Murray/Lyles/LMA,
    BENCH--> Mills/DDR/Walker/Gay/Poeltl
    CLOSERS --> White/Murray/Walker (or Mills depending on how the game has gone for either player)/Lyles/LMA

  2. #27
    Believe.
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    3 man lineups:

    Derozan, Forbes, Murray: 745 mins = offensive rating of 109.7 & defensive rating of 113.6 for a net rating of -3.9

    White, Forbes, Murray: 39 mins = offensive rating of 109.9 & defensive rating of 105.9 for a net rating of +4.0

    Interesting again how with Derozan Forbes drags him down but not the same for White/Murray? Also offense stays as potent too despite DeRozan being a superior player.

    Sample size is small but this has been hypothesized by many for a long time.
    I can't wait until Aldridge and DeRozan are gone next year and this team turns into the 2013-2017 76ers. You and everybody else who thinks White Murray and Walker can carry a team to more than 25 wins to have egg on their face.

  3. #28
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    I can't wait until Aldridge and DeRozan are gone next year and this team turns into the 2013-2017 76ers. You and everybody else who thinks White Murray and Walker can carry a team to more than 25 wins to have egg on their face.
    25 or 35 wins who cares? We know the road ends with Derozan. Murray and White May suck without Derozan and LMA but if the only risk is losing out on a 35 win team? Who cares.

  4. #29
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Rtg is based on 100 possessions. ORtg means points scored per 100 possessions. DRtg means points given up, per 100.

    Trend of Spurs' ORtg the last 5 seasons:

    110.3 , 111.1 , 107.9 , 112.9 , 112.1

    Trend of Spurs' DRtg the last 5 seasons:

    99.0 , 103.5 , 104.8 , 111.2 , 113.4

    Difference between ORtg and DRtg, year by year:

    11.3 , 7.6 , 3.1 , 1.7 , minus 1.3

    The difference shrank until it flipped this year. The Defense number is the culprit. It rose, in a long-term trend, until it exceeded the offense, as marked in bold. For the defense to be the basic problem, should not surprise anybody.

    "DeRozan ball," or whatever you want to call it, is good enough on the offensive side that the team could have a winning record. (They might be ugly wins.)

    But "Forbes ball" (so call it) is the killer. Too many points given up.

    Solution? Try giving more time on court to the team's better defenders.

    Which will astonish nobody.
    I thought about that before I made the thread and was aware of the numbers, but considering DeRozan is not a 3-point shooter, is that maybe the reason why Pop plays Forbes with him? And playing 2 bad defenders makes the defense look like swiss cheese. Not saying you are wrong, I just wanted to throw the question in the room.

    3 man lineups:

    Derozan, Forbes, Murray: 745 mins = offensive rating of 109.7 & defensive rating of 113.6 for a net rating of -3.9

    White, Forbes, Murray: 39 mins = offensive rating of 109.9 & defensive rating of 105.9 for a net rating of +4.0

    Interesting again how with Derozan Forbes drags him down but not the same for White/Murray? Also offense stays as potent too despite DeRozan being a superior player.

    Sample size is small but this has been hypothesized by many for a long time.
    Then again there is not enough of a sample size on a Murray/White/DeRozan line up to really know if that is a better line up than the one without DeMar

  5. #30
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    25 or 35 wins who cares? We know the road ends with Derozan. Murray and White May suck without Derozan and LMA but if the only risk is losing out on a 35 win team? Who cares.
    35 wins is better than 10 wins which is what this team is going to be. Despite what you're saying now you're not going to want to watch a 10 win team. Last time I checked Aldridge if built around him properly was 3 blown games away from a 50 win season so to say he could only lead a 35 in team is false considering that it's never happened.

  6. #31
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    They are a 35 win team now with him

  7. #32
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    You’re either good or bad. I don’t personally care about being less bad. Especially When that also coincides with a downward trajectory

  8. #33
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    The Spurs would have a losing record with any combination starting on the team. they are just not very good so accept that. No star players on the team. This year is different than last year. The Spurs have changed some but many other teams have also changed and even moreso. The league changes every year so do not compare last year's squeaking into the playoffs with falling short this year.

  9. #34
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Forbes and Lyles. I can live with Lyles as a minute eater, but your starting two underwhelming players in the west. Obviously Spurs tried to obtain a starting PF, (Gay, Carroll, Morris), but it didn't pan out.

  10. #35
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    1. Popped

    2. Forbes

    Derosians D is pathetic but his O is often excellent and almost always at least above average. Terrible scheme by "Light Years Behind" Grandpa.

  11. #36
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Pop is the reason, bruh. No need to overthink things.

  12. #37
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    I thought about that before I made the thread and was aware of the numbers, but considering DeRozan is not a 3-point shooter, is that maybe the reason why Pop plays Forbes with him? ...

    Oh, absolutely. I can't read Pop's mind, but - to my own satisfaction - I'm absolutely certain that Pop starts Bryn so there'll be 3pt shooting from the guard/SF positions. Bryn is Pop's "gunslinger." If DDR shot 3s at a high enough volume, with a good %, I don't think Bryn would start.

    Pop doesn't start Mills, because he wants Patty to be his high-energy "juice" player with the bench. It has to be admitted, Patty is pretty good at that. Forbes couldn't begin to energize the bench the way our favorite Wombat does.

    So, on offense, it makes sense to start Forbes. Yes, he can provide 3pt shooting. The trouble being, as we know, offense is only half the game.

    ...
    And playing 2 bad defenders makes the defense look like swiss cheese. Not saying you are wrong, I just wanted to throw the question in the room.

    Oh, sure. With Forbes, it's like he's trying to invent new ways to be a bad defender. Such as, standing there ball watching, while the guy he's supposed to cover runs behind him, more than halfway across the court, totally unguarded. To cite just one recent example.

    With DDR, I think it's that he finds defense tedious. It bores him to run around the court without the ball. He has defensive lapses because he can't help thinking ahead to the next time he'll have the ball, and a chance to shoot. My theory, fwiw.

    Anyway, yeah, that's what Murray deals with, and LMA and Lyles, on the defensive end. There's Forbes, who's inept, and DDR, who just wants the ball back. That's my view of it.

  13. #38
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Of course not. DeRozan hasn't been on a minus-.500 team since 13-14. The roster around him is terrible or at least struggling, and that's hurting the team more.

    On the spacing thing, Pop still does seem to think about the three as a threat to open up the two. Most if not all other teams think of it as the opposite. Therefore, he's going to favor guys who score best from two to be the main stars and leave three-pointers to the complimentary players. The solution to addressing DMDR's lack of three-point shooting is to get him to shoot more threes, not to put someone next to him to shoot for him. Spacing in the traditional sense was more important back when teams' goal was to shrink the court and guard the middle. But it's evolved from static spacing into more dynamic gravity. For DeRozan, his gravity drops off pretty firmly after he goes behind the line. That changes how teams defend him in a way that having shooters doesn't make up for. Most modern stars, including even Aldridge, can bend a defense anywhere inside the hashes. DeRozan can't, so it makes him much easier to gameplan for. Add in how easy it is to get in his head, and it makes for a player to often under performs his talent level.

  14. #39
    Believe. KimmyGib's Avatar
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    One difference between this year and last which doesn't really get talked about, is Aldridge's regression. Not even putting him down, he's just getting older, and I'd still call him the Spurs best player. But there were so many games in the last 2 years where he carried the team on his back. And while he still does his part, he can't really carry the team anymore.

  15. #40
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    "We have a losing record because their shots have been going in a ours haven't. It's not complicated."

  16. #41
    Believe. Prime BEEF's Avatar
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    35 wins is better than 10 wins which is what this team is going to be. Despite what you're saying now you're not going to want to watch a 10 win team. Last time I checked Aldridge if built around him properly was 3 blown games away from a 50 win season so to say he could only lead a 35 in team is false considering that it's never happened.
    Bull

    This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA

  17. #42
    half man half amazing
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    Demar is not an effective NBA player. That's a simple fact. That is exactly why the Spurs should have moved on from him the past off season.

    This team was going to be bad regardless (an 8 seed at best) because DeMar was made a focal point. Popovich simply made matters worse, because he's a senile idiot.

  18. #43
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    Bull

    This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA
    Take LMA out of that statement and I agree with you. LMA is still an effective big man, even with his shortcomings. DeMar is just all around bad at the things that matter and good at things that don't matter.

  19. #44
    Believe.
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    Take LMA out of that statement and I agree with you. LMA is still an effective big man, even with his shortcomings. DeMar is just all around bad at the things that matter and good at things that don't matter.
    You have people saying LA can't lead a team to more than 35 wins which is flagrantly wrong.

  20. #45
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    Bull

    This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA
    Ok maybe 15 wins.

  21. #46
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Of course not. DeRozan hasn't been on a minus-.500 team since 13-14. The roster around him is terrible or at least struggling, and that's hurting the team more.

    On the spacing thing, Pop still does seem to think about the three as a threat to open up the two. Most if not all other teams think of it as the opposite. Therefore, he's going to favor guys who score best from two to be the main stars and leave three-pointers to the complimentary players. The solution to addressing DMDR's lack of three-point shooting is to get him to shoot more threes, not to put someone next to him to shoot for him. Spacing in the traditional sense was more important back when teams' goal was to shrink the court and guard the middle. But it's evolved from static spacing into more dynamic gravity. For DeRozan, his gravity drops off pretty firmly after he goes behind the line. That changes how teams defend him in a way that having shooters doesn't make up for. Most modern stars, including even Aldridge, can bend a defense anywhere inside the hashes. DeRozan can't, so it makes him much easier to gameplan for. Add in how easy it is to get in his head, and it makes for a player to often under performs his talent level.
    Good post

  22. #47
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    The Spurs are currently 10th in the league in Offensive Rating, ORtg. There are 9 teams in the league that are better on the offensive end.

    The Spurs are currently 25th in Defensive Rating, DRtg. 24 teams are better, defensively.

    It's lack of defense that is causing the losing record, folks.

  23. #48
    Emperor Duncan>>>>>King James tim_duncan_fan's Avatar
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    Forbes/Pop and Demar stunting the growth of the young 3
    What "Young 3"? All 3 of those guys are scared to death of offensive responsibility. Them not wanting to step up is the real problem Patfo didn't see coming.

  24. #49
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    Good point. However, didn't DeRozan ball was good enough to get the Raptors in the playoffs consistently? I think it is the drop of LMA and White. Those two were a of a lot better last year. Particularly DW who was surprisingly carrying the vets for many games last season. Not so this year.

  25. #50
    Fan Since 93 SayTown's Avatar
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    The consensus and what I think Pop has said is that White and Murray haven't worked because of the lack of spacing it would create on offense so they are unplayable together. Although any combination of Forbes, Marco, and Mills is unplayable because of their traffic cone defense but that doesn't stop Pop from rolling them out together so there is no excuse not to play White and Murray together.

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