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  1. #26
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Pip guarded the best perimeter players while clowned and dominated plumbers and fishermen.

    Ja would cook MJ Ole sweet and sour chicken ass
    Kobe with his non efficiency game and low PER a quick out - that’s a lock

  2. #27
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    What were you, 5?

    Mike won 6 rings and 10 scoring les, his accolades are ridiculous. You can try to revise history and say he had no comp, but the original Dream Team was his comp and he beat the others on the regular.

    Couldn't play a lick of baseball though.
    not even gonna compare the compe ion.

    the rules clearly favored his style of play. it would be laughable to see guys like lebron get to go either purely one-on-one, or be able to completely pick apart the defense should they decide to blatantly double. and at anyone who thinks more leniency on hand checking is going to do anything to stop him from getting to the rim at will.

    either we have to judge all eras as is, or we have to analyze them all fairly. we cant dismiss wilt and russell because they played weak and had stacked teams, in favor of mike, while completely throwing it all out the window when comparing mike to more modern generations.

    i still feel overall, mike is the goat. but there is definitely arguments to be had otherwise, and he certainly had cir stances that he greatly benefitted from as much as anyone, while others didnt have near the same luxuries.

    and to act as if he just demoralized and put the fear of god into every opponent he played, absolutely not. teams and players had a deep respect for him as a player, but its not like they just bent over and gave up as soon as they saw him. and if we are going to bring guys like bird into the equation, then thats just stupid because mike went 0-6 against bird in the playoffs. by time mikes teams reached their peak, bird was pretty much broken down as a player. highly doubt those bulls teams would win 6 championships if they were battling the lakers and celtics at their primes, as opposed to coming to power after they faded and the league had a severe lack of quality wing players

  3. #28
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Ja would easily dominate Jorbum tbh

  4. #29
    Veteran LkrFan's Avatar
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    Kobe with his non efficiency game and low PER a quick out - that’s a lock
    This is not a Kobe thread. - 20 points son

  5. #30
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Ja would easily dominate Jorbum tbh
    Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja.

  6. #31
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja.
    I meant to add boil and fry Ja as well.

  7. #32
    Veteran LkrFan's Avatar
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    Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja.
    Jordan usually rested on defense playing against CPAs and real estate agents. He wouldn't be able to do so in today's NBA. Even today's "scrubs" are more skilled and more athletic than Jeff Hornacek, Craig Ehlo, John Starks and another 95% of the perimeter players Jordan faced. He dominated scrubs because he was skilled and superior to them athletically.

    And defensively, he can't hand check, so let's not act like he'd really lock anybody down. I still remember Kobe dropping 55 on his head (42 at the half; Phil basically benched Kobe in the 2nd half to protect Jordan).

    But but but Jordan was old. So is Bron right now - and Bron has more mileage/years right now than Jordan ever had. Who ever did that to Bron?

    Needless to say Bron > Jordan. But let's not blindly say Ja wouldn't cook Jordan.

    By the way, cooking someone does not mean he's better than Jordan. Cooking to me means Jordan cannot shut Ja down. In his prime he never shut down Zeke. Ja is more explosive than Zeke.

  8. #33
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja.
    l Jorbum would average DeRozan numbers today

  9. #34
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    The legend of jordan is getting hilarious. It’s one of those tall tales now. It’s like hearing somebody’s great uncle killing a mountain lion with his bare hands right after fighting away a pack of 25 wolves with a toothbrush. It’s at a preposterous level and things are basically based on wild exaggeration and conjecture. The funniest thing is that we can all find his videos on YouTube.

    Was jordan great? No doubt about it? GoAT? He’s definitely the front runner. But is he really that much better than anyone else? No. He lost multiple times in the playoffs. To better teams. He was largely a ballhog out for his individual glory rather than team success early on in his career. He was not greater than magic until he won his third le. Bird owned jordan so badly that jordan started acting like a white guy to be more like his son.

    Zeke destroyed jordan multiple times as well.

    If it wasn’t for Pippen jordan would be another excellent player. I’d argue Lebron, shaq and Duncan were easier to build around than jordan.

  10. #35
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    Michael Jordan is/was the greatest basketball ever when you look at combination of talent and skill, physical and athletic abilities, and translating those things into winning. But also, when you look at it from a propaganda point of view. The league made him a poster boy early on, and then his shoes and TV commercials and then the exposure of the Dream Team in the Olympics all helped make him a global superstar the likes of the Beatles and Michael Jackson, and has only since been challenged by superstars like Tiger Woods and Beyoncé. That said, his legend on the court often gets egregiously exaggerated thru the lens of nostalgia.

    Michael may have demoralized “some” opponents. Some lesser opponents. Bird wasn’t scared of Jordan. Isiah wasn’t scared of Jordan. Now, Jordan may have still punked those guys, their teams some of the time. But they weren’t demoralized by him. You want to say he demoralized Craig Ehlo and John Starks and Byron Russell, ok, sure. But not every player, certainly not star players, not every team bowed down and cowered to Michael in reverence. And everyone knows Michael couldn’t get over on the likes of Bird and Magic and even Isiah until they got old. That’s just historic fact.

    As far as one-on-one, I think a lot of the all time great players could “hang” with Michael and would have a 50/50 shot or close to it to beating him in any given game. LeBron, Kobe, McGrady, Durant, Bird, Vince, Dirk. Guys with size and skill to match up and at least make it difficult for Michael to also stop them. Not saying any of them beat Michael for sure, certainly not convincingly. Only, I’d give those caliber of players a 50/50 shot, any given game. , I think Joker and Dream would give Michael in a game of one-on-one. And how in the is Michael stopping Wilt one-on-one?

    As for Ja, I think for him to have any shot, similar to like an Iverson, it matters who gets the ball first and if they game is make it, take it. Because maybe guys like Iverson and Morant can’t stop Michael, but I don’t think Michael stops either one of those guys either. So it’s a matter of getting the ball first. Do I think Ja beats Michael? No. But if he got the ball first and it’s make it, take it, he improves his chances significantly.
    Valid points...however, once Jordan hit his prime, nobody else ate in the 90's unless he was retired stemming from boredom.

  11. #36
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    The legend of jordan is getting hilarious. It’s one of those tall tales now. It’s like hearing somebody’s great uncle killing a mountain lion with his bare hands right after fighting away a pack of 25 wolves with a toothbrush. It’s at a preposterous level and things are basically based on wild exaggeration and conjecture. The funniest thing is that we can all find his videos on YouTube.

    Was jordan great? No doubt about it? GoAT? He’s definitely the front runner. But is he really that much better than anyone else? No. He lost multiple times in the playoffs. To better teams. He was largely a ballhog out for his individual glory rather than team success early on in his career. He was not greater than magic until he won his third le. Bird owned jordan so badly that jordan started acting like a white guy to be more like his son.

    Zeke destroyed jordan multiple times as well.

    If it wasn’t for Pippen jordan would be another excellent player. I’d argue Lebron, shaq and Duncan were easier to build around than jordan.
    That's like saying Lebron was owned by Duncan and KG until they got old.

    Those guys were more seasoned and arguably had more talent to work with. Same situation with young Jordan vs Bird, Zeke, etc.

  12. #37
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Valid points...however, once Jordan hit his prime, nobody else ate in the 90's unless he was retired stemming from boredom.
    The bulls had the greatest perimeter tandem (both o and d) in jordan and Pippen. But they still require outside shooting centres to open up the lane and a rugged interior defender and rebounder to get their misses.

    As the years go by people make it sound like jordan dragged the hapless bulls to six les when the reality is that Pippen is one of the most amazing perimeter players ever. Outside of Lebron (massive upgrade) and a healthy grant hill (non existent) I can’t think of a single player who could’ve replaced Pippen with that type of defender creator role.

    The east was also ridiculously weak those years that by the time the bulls get to the finals they were well rested. Year in and year out, four of the top five teams were in the west (Portland, Seattle, Houston, Phoenix, spurs, jazz we’re all better than Knicks, pacers and heat).

    The teams are generally weak due to massive expansions in the late 80s mid 90s with heat, wolves, magic, hornets and later raptors and grizzlies) that it spread out the talent too much. Teams with talent at the top would dominate. Really, how would a team like the Knicks with Ewing and a bunch of nobodies with50+ year in year out? Ditto hakeem with the rockets (even won two les), sonics with Payton and kemp, spurs with robinson, Portland with Clyde and a combination of porter kersey and duck worth, magic with shaq and penny. The league had some megastars but the talent was spread thin. There were no longer deep teams like the bad boys, showtime lakers or Celtics. Jordan was simply a beneficiary of it.

  13. #38
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    That's like saying Lebron was owned by Duncan and KG until they got old.

    Those guys were more seasoned and arguably had more talent to work with. Same situation with young Jordan vs Bird, Zeke, etc.
    Nobody is saying Duncan and Garnett were trembling in fear when they say Lebron though.

  14. #39
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
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  15. #40
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    not even gonna compare the compe ion.

    the rules clearly favored his style of play. it would be laughable to see guys like lebron get to go either purely one-on-one, or be able to completely pick apart the defense should they decide to blatantly double. and at anyone who thinks more leniency on hand checking is going to do anything to stop him from getting to the rim at will.

    either we have to judge all eras as is, or we have to analyze them all fairly. we cant dismiss wilt and russell because they played weak and had stacked teams, in favor of mike, while completely throwing it all out the window when comparing mike to more modern generations.

    i still feel overall, mike is the goat. but there is definitely arguments to be had otherwise, and he certainly had cir stances that he greatly benefitted from as much as anyone, while others didnt have near the same luxuries.

    and to act as if he just demoralized and put the fear of god into every opponent he played, absolutely not. teams and players had a deep respect for him as a player, but its not like they just bent over and gave up as soon as they saw him. and if we are going to bring guys like bird into the equation, then thats just stupid because mike went 0-6 against bird in the playoffs. by time mikes teams reached their peak, bird was pretty much broken down as a player. highly doubt those bulls teams would win 6 championships if they were battling the lakers and celtics at their primes, as opposed to coming to power after they faded and the league had a severe lack of quality wing players
    MJ ed with his own teammates. I'm Duke but I tip my hat he's North Carolina upbringing. Best fundamentals.

  16. #41
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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  17. #42
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Suns and Jazz up late. MJ steals their hearts.

  18. #43
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Lebron has the skills but not the brain. Didn't go to North Carolina. MJ was humbled playing under Worthy.

  19. #44
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    The bulls had the greatest perimeter tandem (both o and d) in jordan and Pippen. But they still require outside shooting centres to open up the lane and a rugged interior defender and rebounder to get their misses.

    As the years go by people make it sound like jordan dragged the hapless bulls to six les when the reality is that Pippen is one of the most amazing perimeter players ever. Outside of Lebron (massive upgrade) and a healthy grant hill (non existent) I can’t think of a single player who could’ve replaced Pippen with that type of defender creator role.

    The east was also ridiculously weak those years that by the time the bulls get to the finals they were well rested. Year in and year out, four of the top five teams were in the west (Portland, Seattle, Houston, Phoenix, spurs, jazz we’re all better than Knicks, pacers and heat).

    The teams are generally weak due to massive expansions in the late 80s mid 90s with heat, wolves, magic, hornets and later raptors and grizzlies) that it spread out the talent too much. Teams with talent at the top would dominate. Really, how would a team like the Knicks with Ewing and a bunch of nobodies with50+ year in year out? Ditto hakeem with the rockets (even won two les), sonics with Payton and kemp, spurs with robinson, Portland with Clyde and a combination of porter kersey and duck worth, magic with shaq and penny. The league had some megastars but the talent was spread thin. There were no longer deep teams like the bad boys, showtime lakers or Celtics. Jordan was simply a beneficiary of it.
    I'm definitely not saying that, Pippen and Grant/Rodman played a sizable role in helping them win. But when the games were on the line, MJ came through. Everybody and their momma knew he was getting the rock, yet nobody could stop him. In the closing moments of the 98 Finals, with a hobbled Pippen mainly just a decoy out there, you knew Jordan was going to take over. It was as predictable as Biden saying something stupid every week, because history repeats itself.

    The East was kinda weak but I feel like his Final's opponents were not and they get intentionally underrated in order to elevate Lebron. The 96 Sonics are, imo, one of the best teams in NBA history to not win it all. And in 91, almost everyone was picking LA over Chicago before the series started. When the Lakers lost, the narrative became they were old and washed. I see both sides of the argument trying to rewrite history sometimes,

  20. #45
    Believe. Dirks_Finale's Avatar
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    Lebron has the skills but not the brain. Didn't go to North Carolina. MJ was humbled playing under Worthy.

    He also comes across as a petty little sometimes.

  21. #46
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    He also comes across as a petty little sometimes.
    "And I took that personally"

    No one nit picks micro offenses like Mike, but that massive chip on his shoulder is what fueled him. He didn't let off the gas just because he got paid.

  22. #47
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Jordan would be an all star in today's NBA, but not other worldly like back in the day. Ja is better than 95% of the compe ion Jordan faced in his hey day. I watched Zeke send him home and cooked him.

    Ja is as explosive and jumps higher than Zeke did. He would cook Jordan. You farmers act like dude was some invincible urban legend. SMH
    Outside of the 3pt anomalies, prime Mike would be the best player in the game today. Who would be better, Durant? Devin Booker?

  23. #48
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell ing Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

    The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

    The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.

  24. #49
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell ing Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

    The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

    The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.
    Still would be best player (you have to consider both ends of the floor), and Mike could do ok from 3 but as you said, the 3pt shot wasn't as prolific back then as it is now. Rule changes have helped facilitate that, but Mike could score when bigs were allowed to camp out under the basket.

    No one said Mike playing 80's style ball vs today's league play style. Mike would do fine in today's system, he'd probably score much easier when bigs cannot camp under the basket. The only comparison to DDR is midrange shooting. Tim Duncan was also a midrange shooter.

  25. #50
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    Everything is conjecture. For both of us. I don't believe Michael Jordan would be the best player in today's NBA. But you do. Every argument I make, every argument you make is still based on conjecture.

    Michael is viewed as the greatest in large part because of his championship success. Keep everything the same, his talent, skill, athletic ability, individual statistics, the era he played in, his compe ion, the Jordan shoe brand, the Mars Blackmon commercials, Come Fly with Me, Be like Mike, all of that thode things the same, but take away the les, and well, he's not the Goat. He's not even in the conversation. And if you put Michael in today's game, same talent and skill and athleticism and individual statistics, you cannot guarantee to be able to build a championship team around him, much less a 6 time championship dynasty. The 6'6 uber athletic power guard has been replaced with the do-it-all point forward. LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Luka. Guys with size and length and strength and ability to not only score 25 points a game but collect 8+ assists a game, bring down 8-10 rebounds a game while defending up to 4-5 positions. The Michael Jordan prototype doesn't fit today's game, no matter how talented. Even if you don't like the DeRozan comp, Jordan's prototype is like Jaylen Brown, Zach LaVine. Good players, heck, great players. All stars. But they're not in the discussion of best player in the league.

    Jordan would be a great player in any era. In today's game, his game doesn't necessarily translate into multiple championships. And if he's not winning multiple championships, I don't think people are considering him the best player in the league. He'd probably have to go the route of LeBron and Durant and form a superteam to try to build his case and resume.

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