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  1. #676
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Is there a substantive difference between having a bench trial vs. an arbitration?
    Bench trials don’t have arbitration fees

    Bench trials are appealable

    Bench trials have judges who can make impartial rulings without being worried about getting “future business” from one side or the other (you and I both know that happens really often in arbitration )

    Judges don’t have the leeway to ignore applicable law

  2. #677
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Bench trials don’t have arbitration fees

    Bench trials are appealable

    Bench trials have judges who can make impartial rulings without being worried about getting “future business” from one side or the other (you and I both know that happens really often in arbitration )

    Judges don’t have the leeway to ignore applicable law
    Agree on the first two, to an extent. Ad hoc arbitration and non-binding arbitration exist. You are gonna pay for it though, but if the parties want to do so, who cares?

    Disagree on the last two (state court judges are elected officials and holy you should see some of the crap they do).

  3. #678
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Agree on the first two, to an extent. Ad hoc arbitration and non-binding arbitration exist. You are gonna pay for it though, but if the parties want to do so, who cares?

    Disagree on the last two (state court judges are elected officials and holy you should see some of the crap they do).
    Yeah judges do plenty of dumb all the time (if it were up to me every state would function like Delaware courts do where the judges all have IQs that are at least above room temperature, of all the litigation my last company was involved with the one lawsuit that was managed by the court with at least some modi of efficiency was the lawsuit in Delaware Chancery Court), but the theme with arbitrators is that they favor employer vs. employee because employer is the one paying arbitrator costs and the arbitrator knows that having a good relationship with the employers’ lawyers will have more career benefits than a relationship with the contingency fee EEOC lawyer will.

    Judges also might ignore the law but they’re not supposed to and getting overturned on appeal at least scares them into having some semblance of accountability. Arbitrators write some of the sloppiest and half assed opinions I’ve ever seen because they know they have final say.

  4. #679
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Yeah judges do plenty of dumb all the time (if it were up to me every state would function like Delaware courts do where the judges all have IQs that are at least above room temperature, of all the litigation my last company was involved with the one lawsuit that was managed by the court with at least some modi of efficiency was the lawsuit in Delaware Chancery Court), but the theme with arbitrators is that they favor employer vs. employee because employer is the one paying arbitrator costs and the arbitrator knows that having a good relationship with the employers’ lawyers will have more career benefits than a relationship with the contingency fee EEOC lawyer will.
    So we're talking past each other (to a degree). I'm less concerned about situations where there's a disparity in bargaining power. I still disagree, but I can see the logic behind what you're saying. I'm more concerned about what I see on a regular basis - two corporations consent to an arbitration clause in their contract, an operator and non-working interest owners consent to arbitration in their JOA. an architect and project owner agree to the form arbitration clause in the AIA contract. I suspect you have less of a problem with this. And Bernie might too. But that's not what his website says and I'm going off what is written there: ban mandatory arbitration clauses.

    And yeah, I'd love to have judges be like the ones on the chancery court, but that is probably the most prestigious state court in the country; I'd argue that its on par with SDNY or CD Cal. But that's just not realistic for the rest of the country. Rather, you have something that's way more pernicious - which is incredibly rich lawyers financing judge's campaigns. Do you think you're getting a fair shake in those courts?

    Judges also might ignore the law but they’re not supposed to and getting overturned on appeal at least scares them into having some semblance of accountability. Arbitrators write some of the sloppiest and half assed opinions I’ve ever seen because they know they have final say.
    I used to work with a former state court judge. His stories were eye-opening. Reversal is just part of the job. Mandamus is slightly more personal because of the abuse of discretion standard. But judges are far less concerned with applying the law and far more concerned with doing equity. That's how they get re-elected.

  5. #680
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Is there a substantive difference between having a bench trial vs. an arbitration?
    Not that I have noticed. (minor part of my job is reviewing lawsuits/arbitration relating to insurance claims)

  6. #681
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yeah judges do plenty of dumb all the time (if it were up to me every state would function like Delaware courts do where the judges all have IQs that are at least above room temperature, of all the litigation my last company was involved with the one lawsuit that was managed by the court with at least some modi of efficiency was the lawsuit in Delaware Chancery Court), but the theme with arbitrators is that they favor employer vs. employee because employer is the one paying arbitrator costs and the arbitrator knows that having a good relationship with the employers’ lawyers will have more career benefits than a relationship with the contingency fee EEOC lawyer will.

    Judges also might ignore the law but they’re not supposed to and getting overturned on appeal at least scares them into having some semblance of accountability. Arbitrators write some of the sloppiest and half assed opinions I’ve ever seen because they know they have final say.
    Interesting insight.

  7. #682
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    Biden on the verge of taking over this race I heard (on MSNBC so it's true)
    Pouring out my 40 for Elena, a Democrat that Republicans could believe in

  8. #683
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    Pouring out my 40 for Elena, a Democrat that Republicans could believe in
    It's so sad. She stood in a ing blizzard for Murica and this is how ya'll treat her!

    Ima vote for Trump just to spite you mofo's

  9. #684
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    So we're talking past each other (to a degree). I'm less concerned about situations where there's a disparity in bargaining power. I still disagree, but I can see the logic behind what you're saying. I'm more concerned about what I see on a regular basis - two corporations consent to an arbitration clause in their contract, an operator and non-working interest owners consent to arbitration in their JOA. an architect and project owner agree to the form arbitration clause in the AIA contract. I suspect you have less of a problem with this. And Bernie might too. But that's not what his website says and I'm going off what is written there: ban mandatory arbitration clauses.

    And yeah, I'd love to have judges be like the ones on the chancery court, but that is probably the most prestigious state court in the country; I'd argue that its on par with SDNY or CD Cal. But that's just not realistic for the rest of the country. Rather, you have something that's way more pernicious - which is incredibly rich lawyers financing judge's campaigns. Do you think you're getting a fair shake in those courts?



    I used to work with a former state court judge. His stories were eye-opening. Reversal is just part of the job. Mandamus is slightly more personal because of the abuse of discretion standard. But judges are far less concerned with applying the law and far more concerned with doing equity. That's how they get re-elected.
    Yeah I have no problem with two corporations agreeing to arbitration. I know his campaign website is more broad but I doubt Bernie does either.

    Regarding getting a fair shake - my former boss committed vritually every form of securities fraud and breach of fiduciary duty that exists under Delaware law and his investors sued him with a bunch of Jew lawyers who make north of $1000 / hour, and even after the Vice Chancellor clearly saw how dead to rights he was, he went out of his way to ensure the was getting a fair shake, to the point where I even thought it was ridiculous. At least in that case he was doing everything he could to show impartiality in order to avoid getting appealed.

  10. #685
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Pouring out my 40 for Elena, a Democrat that Republicans could believe in
    damn, i thought this meant she suspended her campaign ...

  11. #686
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    i didnt see anything about bernie wanting to abolish arbitration, just that that you cant have mandatory arbitration in agreements. nothing could prevent the parties from later deciding to arbitrate, if they want to a faster ruling/disposition with less drawn-out discovery... and provided they can agree how to split the fee. but mandatory arb agreements between employer/employee suck tbh, though i draft them all the time

  12. #687
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Steyer in third in SC?

    Must be people hoping for that reparations check.

  13. #688
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Tbh tho vy65 if I could do my career all over again I’d be a Delaware lawyer. Those guys have it made. There aren’t very many good ones and the ones who are good can have a low overhead legal practice because any huge case they manage is going to involve a firm like Kirkland doing all the heavy lifting and they get all the business from national firms that need a Delaware firm to just appear

  14. #689
    Believe.
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    oh - sorry -

    I thought this was a bernie thread

  15. #690
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    MSN Breaking: In a poll of Democrats Bernie won the debate but most Democrats didn't watch so it doesn't matter

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ch/ar-BB10ws2T

  16. #691
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    So we're talking past each other (to a degree). I'm less concerned about situations where there's a disparity in bargaining power. I still disagree, but I can see the logic behind what you're saying. I'm more concerned about what I see on a regular basis - two corporations consent to an arbitration clause in their contract, an operator and non-working interest owners consent to arbitration in their JOA. an architect and project owner agree to the form arbitration clause in the AIA contract. I suspect you have less of a problem with this. And Bernie might too. But that's not what his website says and I'm going off what is written there: ban mandatory arbitration clauses.
    Seems there's a disconnect here. If both sides agree to an arbitration clause, then it's not mandatory?

    What I think about mandatory is when one side wants to shove an arbitration clause on an existing contract that doesn't have one. ie: phone company changes terms and you have to agree to an arbitration clause or flat out stop doing business with them, despite the latter being burdensome to you.
    Or that you must agree to an arbitration clause in order to obtain employment, etc.

  17. #692
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I completely dislike arbitration. I feel it's cheating our due process. You should have the option to appeal, and you shouldn't be forced to relinquish that. It's one of the most basic checks and balances on the judiciary.

  18. #693
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Seems there's a disconnect here. If both sides agree to an arbitration clause, then it's not mandatory?

    What I think about mandatory is when one side wants to shove an arbitration clause on an existing contract that doesn't have one. ie: phone company changes terms and you have to agree to an arbitration clause or flat out stop doing business with them, despite the latter being burdensome to you.
    Or that you must agree to an arbitration clause in order to obtain employment, etc.
    I read mandatory to be “binding.” The website doesn’t say ban arbitration clauses in contracts of adhesion, which is the phone example you give

  19. #694
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I read mandatory to be “binding.” The website doesn’t say ban arbitration clauses in contracts of adhesion, which is the phone example you give
    I haven't looked at the website, but it's politics. The fact that's not clear is probably by design

    But nevertheless, I do feel that contracts that cannot be entered on unless one agrees to arbitration, and especially on cases where individual consumers don't have the leverage to negotiate that, would be the ideal target here.

    Between forced arbitration and the relatively new practice of barring class action claims, I feel the field is tilted. I get that companies want to limit both their liability and legal expenses, but consumers end up being the suckers here.

  20. #695
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  21. #696
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Definitely a major setback for Bernie tonight.

  22. #697
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    Putin needs to up his game.

  23. #698
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    Putin needs to up his game.
    Trump is also like 0 and forever. (Shout out to trend setter Thread) How many times has he told republican voters to vote for x candidate just to fall on his face?

    Alabama, Pennsylvania, Virginia, NH, SC etc. His own voters ignore him.

  24. #699
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    Definitely a major setback for Bernie tonight.
    Biden looking to be within 10 delegates after tonight.

  25. #700
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    Biden looking to be within 10 delegates after tonight.
    Exciting development, amirite?

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