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  1. #176
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    Bible history fail.

    None of the books of the bible were actually written by actual witnesses to the events.
    moses, isaiah, daniel, paul and many others literally wrote about their own life events, what are you talking about

  2. #177
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    Have you ever heard of Zoroastrianism?
    heard of it, havent done major research on it. why?

  3. #178
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    So you're good with the slavery in it,?
    the slavery that resulted in the mistreatment and oppression of people? no

    slavery in terms of simply working to repay a debt and not be mistreated or oppressed in the process? not much different than repaying a loan tbh

  4. #179
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    heard of it, havent done major research on it. why?
    Some scholars say that tenets of Zoroastrianism helped to shape the major Abrahamic religions—including Judaism, Christianity and Islam—through the influence of the Persian Empire.

    Zoroastrian concepts, including the idea of a single god, heaven, and a day of judgment, may have been first introduced to the Jewish community of Babylonia, where people from the Kingdom of Judea had been living in captivity for decades.

    When Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 B.C., he liberated the Babylonian Jews. Many returned home to Jerusalem, where their descendants helped to create the Hebrew Bible.

    https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism

  5. #180
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    if everything has to have a cause, then what caused God? super-duper God.

    Then what created super-duper God? Super-super-duper God?

    heh.
    I mean...that's the whole rub isn't it? What's before point A in time? Or what's beyond point Z in the universe?
    It's fun to think about. I'm just not sure we can grasp it. Even it it was presented to us.

  6. #181
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    I mean...that's the whole rub isn't it? What's before point A in time? Or what's beyond point Z in the universe?
    It's fun to think about. I'm just not sure we can grasp it. Even it it was presented to us.
    The above being said, I do lean to the idea that we really don't have free will and everything is 100% predictable if someone had 100% perfect knowledge.
    It's all just a mix of chemical and physics equations.

  7. #182
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    the slavery that resulted in the mistreatment and oppression of people? no

    slavery in terms of simply working to repay a debt and not be mistreated or oppressed in the process? not much different than repaying a loan tbh
    Leviticus 25:44-46
    New International Version
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


    Sounds completely not oppressive in the least

  8. #183
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    Christian Blake reads his Bible religiously.

  9. #184
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    ridicule is a pretty bad way to approach these discussions if your goal is to actually sound convincing

    now if your goal is just to dunk on somebody like we used to do with avante... different story

  10. #185
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    I mean...that's the whole rub isn't it? What's before point A in time? Or what's beyond point Z in the universe?
    It's fun to think about. I'm just not sure we can grasp it. Even it it was presented to us.
    If only there was a gauntlet

  11. #186
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    It comes down to what you're compelled to believe. Regardless, it doesn't make any of it true (or false). If all you need to believe is a story, then you are compelled easier than some other are. This is why some people fall for scams and some don't. The Christian religion, for example, has had at least a thousand years to get their stories straight and create caveats for the inconsistencies, yet there are still inconsistencies and still there's no clear message, and there are hundreds of different denominations who interpret the same book differently. They all claim to believe god exists, they claim to believe Jesus died on a cross, but many differ about things like the triune nature of the Christian god, about the divinity of the birth of Mary (immaculate conception) and a host of other things. These forks in belief aren't thousands of years old, so if a true story (it rained a lot and our village flooded) gets passed down, eventually the entire world flooded. No one in that day knew the world was round, so if they saw water everywhere they have to assumed the entire world was flooded. It doesn't withstand scientific scrutiny today however. This doesn't stop Christians from believing it, accepting instead that God works in mysterious ways or some more educated Christians might say that the story is an allegory to show God's love. It seems the more educated the Christian, the less likely they are to push the supernatural stories and instead fall back on the true love and sense of the numinous that humans have.

  12. #187
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    .

  13. #188
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    If only there was a gauntlet
    I don't know what you're getting at?

    Are you in for SpursTalk Fantasy this year?

  14. #189
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    Christian Blake reads his Bible religiously.
    I read it growing up in school, genius.

  15. #190
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    I don't know what you're getting at?

    Are you in for SpursTalk Fantasy this year?
    No, I think I'm out unless you guys are really desperate for players

  16. #191
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    See there is a story about a real person, Neal Patrick Harris, who we know is real.

    He was in New York that we know is real.



    Therfore smurfs are real.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    We have a story with [bible charactor] in it, and we found his tomb, so he was real.

    The story took place in [bible place] that we figured out was also real based on archeology.

    Therefore magic man in the sky made things happen in the story and is real.
    Even if he isn't real, we're not worshipping him or making social policy based on his supposed edicts.

  17. #192
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    except based on bible history, he had plenty of interactions with humankind after creation. nice try making stuff up again.
    and again never when there was possibility of recording. Really convenient

  18. #193
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    Leviticus 25:44-46
    New International Version
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


    Sounds completely not oppressive in the least
    literally one verse prior
    Lev 23:43
    NIV
    43 "Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God."


    other translations say "you must not treat him cruelly" or "you shall not exploit him"
    also the end of verse 46 that you quoted said the same

    the very next verses
    Lev 23:47-52
    NIV
    47 “ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.


    slaves could redeem themselves if they or someone else were able to repay their debt

    Lev 23:36, 37
    NIV
    36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.


    no exploiting them

    Ex 21:20, 26, 27
    NIV
    20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result
    26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.


    mistreating slaves was not acceptable and could result in immediate release
    killing slaves was punishable by death

    Ex 21:16
    NIV
    16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.


    taking and forcing someone into slavery for no reason at all was unacceptable and punishable by death

    Ex 21:2
    NIV
    2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.


    slaves were to serve a maximum of 6 years then be set free

    Lev 25:40, 41
    NIV
    40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors.


    slaves were to be released on jubilee year, regardless of how long they served or how much they still owed

    Deut 15:13-15
    NIV
    13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.


    upon release slaves were not to be sent out with nothing, they were to be treated generously and provided supplies, especially in consideration for the years of slavery that israel endured in egypt




    so yes you are correct that such slavery was not oppressive in the least. it was a way to repay debt, or in some cases, simply a way to find work if you were extremely poor and didnt have the means to provide on your own, as people could voluntarily become slaves.

  19. #194
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    and again never when there was possibility of recording. Really convenient
    fair enough. if you have to see it to believe it, i understand. i personally feel otherwise.

  20. #195
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    welp then i guess no history books or eyewitness accounts of anything have any meaning for you, since it can all be made up

    if thats how you choose to live, more power to you
    that's the rub though. the modern fights over what should go into history books should give anyone pause to accept ancient holy books making fantastic claims.

    I am happy lending a modest amount of credence to books of history, insofar as those claims have evidence to support them.

    The big difference though is the nature of the claims made.

    "the French army invaded Russia in 1836" is much more mundane than "this guy walked on water, rose from the dead, and all the animals on earth could fit into a boat".

    Extra-ordinary claims of fantastic happenings should require more evidence.

    what we have with the bible etc, is LESS, not more, for the very claims that are central to the myths.

  21. #196
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    moses, isaiah, daniel, paul and many others literally wrote about their own life events, what are you talking about
    no. they didn't.

    Bible scholars tend to agree that the names of the books... were not the names of the authors.

    Moses didn't even exist. Feel free to try and shoehorn that in. it is one of the most obviously allegorical stories in the bible.

  22. #197
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    that's the rub though. the modern fights over what should go into history books should give anyone pause to accept ancient holy books making fantastic claims.

    I am happy lending a modest amount of credence to books of history, insofar as those claims have evidence to support them.

    The big difference though is the nature of the claims made.

    "the French army invaded Russia in 1836" is much more mundane than "this guy walked on water, rose from the dead, and all the animals on earth could fit into a boat".

    Extra-ordinary claims of fantastic happenings should require more evidence.

    what we have with the bible etc, is LESS, not more, for the very claims that are central to the myths.
    the thing with the bible is, you are making all these claims assuming there is no god.

    so yes, if we say there is no god, then the bible obviously is a farce. however if there was a god that exists and is capable of supernatural things, then how would it be so impossible for events of the bible to be true?

    ultimately in the end, it comes down to whether you believe in god existing or not. if you believe he does or maybe exists, then everything about the bible is absolutely a possibility. if you dont believe he exists, then based on our knowledge of the universe, many things in the bible seem completely impossible and unbelievable. so in the end, we are never going to see eye to eye on this because of that simple difference between the two of us. and im fine with that, like i said im not trying to change your mind. i just think there are some double standards here.

  23. #198
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    no. they didn't.

    Bible scholars tend to agree that the names of the books... were not the names of the authors.

    Moses didn't even exist. Feel free to try and shoehorn that in. it is one of the most obviously allegorical stories in the bible.
    lol ok.

    and there are many more bible scholars to agree that the names of the books in many cases were the names of the authors

    im pretty confident that many if not most of the ones who dont believe that, arent bible scholars because they believe the bible. they are bible "scholars" because they want to discredit it.

  24. #199
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    literally one verse prior
    Lev 23:43
    NIV
    43 "Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God."


    other translations say "you must not treat him cruelly" or "you shall not exploit him"
    also the end of verse 46 that you quoted said the same

    the very next verses
    Lev 23:47-52
    NIV
    47 “ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.


    slaves could redeem themselves if they or someone else were able to repay their debt

    Lev 23:36, 37
    NIV
    36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.


    no exploiting them

    Ex 21:20, 26, 27
    NIV
    20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result
    26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.


    mistreating slaves was not acceptable and could result in immediate release
    killing slaves was punishable by death

    Ex 21:16
    NIV
    16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.


    taking and forcing someone into slavery for no reason at all was unacceptable and punishable by death

    Ex 21:2
    NIV
    2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.


    slaves were to serve a maximum of 6 years then be set free

    Lev 25:40, 41
    NIV
    40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors.


    slaves were to be released on jubilee year, regardless of how long they served or how much they still owed

    Deut 15:13-15
    NIV
    13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.


    upon release slaves were not to be sent out with nothing, they were to be treated generously and provided supplies, especially in consideration for the years of slavery that israel endured in egypt




    so yes you are correct that such slavery was not oppressive in the least. it was a way to repay debt, or in some cases, simply a way to find work if you were extremely poor and didnt have the means to provide on your own, as people could voluntarily become slaves.
    Oh, the good kind of human ownership.

    If only the Confederacy had used the six year plan

  25. #200
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    the thing with the bible is, you are making all these claims assuming there is no god.

    so yes, if we say there is no god, then the bible obviously is a farce. however if there was a god that exists and is capable of supernatural things, then how would it be so impossible for events of the bible to be true?

    ultimately in the end, it comes down to whether you believe in god existing or not. if you believe he does or maybe exists, then everything about the bible is absolutely a possibility. if you dont believe he exists, then based on our knowledge of the universe, many things in the bible seem completely impossible and unbelievable. so in the end, we are never going to see eye to eye on this because of that simple difference between the two of us. and im fine with that, like i said im not trying to change your mind. i just think there are some double standards here.
    If Bible God exists, seriously based on the laws and actions in the Old Testament, he's a huge insecure asshole

    It's either believe/ worship me or die. That's the main message from front to back.

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