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  1. #551
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    ^What the roster looks like now screams full scale rebuild, so I’m not sure about that one. On the other hand, going after Simmons fits with your line of “an organization against a full scale rebuild”. May raise the floor a bit, but not enough to make noise and only enough to hurt the team’s future. Ben, without Embiid, led the team to a sub .500 record. This team doesn’t have an Embiid. Are folks ready for an era similar to the DeRozan era we just had? I’ll reiterate that I’m prepared for either reality, but I’m not sure if other people really realize what’s to come. But once again, a Spurs future with Ben Simmons is unlikely in the first place (especially as we hear more and more updates that exclude the Spurs being involved), but it’s the summer and this forum would be dead without this news.
    Last edited by Dejounte; 09-05-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #552
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    You never really hear a Spurs move....... it just happens

  3. #553
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    White is older, injury prone and owed more money. If we go after Simmons I’d hope there is appe e to add more scoring at the 2/3 (like a Beal, Lavine, CJ) such that DJ and Simmons could play together and wreak havoc on the defensive end.
    I think the Spurs would be digging themselves deep holes every first quarter playing Murray and Simmons together. I'd only trade White if the Spurs already had a deal lined up to move Murray for a guard with some range who has reasonable defensive skills. They have no shot at Beal for Murray since Beal is happy in Washington and the Bulls aren't going to dump Lavine after all the money they spent this summer on Ball and DeRozan to try to build a winning team. I think Murray is a better player than White but not next to Simmons. Spurs can't expect to hold teams into the 80s and win like it was the 1990s.

  4. #554
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    I start to convince myself the Spurs could commit to going all in on Simmons, but they rarely fully commit to anything. Call it flexibility or risk aversion, but it seems like the middle ground is where they are comfortable. Not committing maybe is their decision, so to speak. They couldn’t commit to LMA vs DDR when they should have. Of course, things can change. But I assume some other lessor team will make a deal first.

  5. #555
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.
    Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.

  6. #556
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    ^What the roster looks like now screams full scale rebuild, so I’m not sure about that one. On the other hand, going after Simmons fits with your line of “an organization against a full scale rebuild”. May raise the floor a bit, but not enough to make noise and only enough to hurt the team’s future. Ben, without Embiid, led the team to a sub .500 record. This team doesn’t have an Embiid. Are folks ready for an era similar to the DeRozan era we just had? I’ll reiterate that I’m prepared for either reality, but I’m not sure if other people really realize what’s to come. But once again, a Spurs future with Ben Simmons is unlikely in the first place (especially as we hear more and more updates that exclude the Spurs being involved), but it’s the summer and this forum would be dead without this news.
    People conflate the mutual departures of DeRozan and Gay (they wanted Mills back) with their wanting a full scale rebuild, but I've long said their goal appears to be Pacers West and this would fit with that.

    My prefernce has always been a full scale rebuild, but any path is unlikely to yield foreseeable future results beyond ending up somewhere in the middle.

    People seem to have this notion that they'll just pick in the top 5-10 for a few years, sprinkle some Spurs pixie dust on them, magically have a superstar and co stars and voila, they're back among the elite in 3-5 years.


    Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.
    One pick would be unlikely to be valuable (the one received for Young) and I don't think Murray has much either. The Spurs youth is so overrated on this board.

    Can't compare value from different eras.

  7. #557
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    [/FONT]One pick would be unlikely to be valuable (the one received for Young) and I don't think Murray has much either. The Spurs youth is so overrated on this board.
    Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?

  8. #558
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    Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?
    So true.

  9. #559
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    Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?
    Having 4 years remaining on his contract helps, but every superstar and star in recent memory has went for more than S bag, who successfully destroyed his value (then somehow came out relatively unscathed by non Spurs fans, but I digress).

    Holiday, a similar caliber player to Simmons, just went for a starter (granted, a salary dump), good backup, 3 1sts and multiple swaps.

  10. #560
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    Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.
    Three top 50 protected second rounders will probably take over a decade to actually transfer to the 76ers. A top 40 protected second a top 50 protected and Forbes seems like kind of a lot for Simmons.

  11. #561
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    Why is anyone taking about giving up Murray for a ball hog defensive minded power forward, with no range and a bad at ude?

  12. #562
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    Why is anyone taking about giving up Murray for a ball hog defensive minded power forward, with no range and a bad at ude?
    Because that ball hog power forward is infinitely better ..

  13. #563
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    Having 4 years remaining on his contract helps, but every superstar and star in recent memory has went for more than S bag, who successfully destroyed his value (then somehow came out relatively unscathed by non Spurs fans, but I digress).

    Holiday, a similar caliber player to Simmons, just went for a starter (granted, a salary dump), good backup, 3 1sts and multiple swaps.
    Not comparable IMO. Not only was Milwaukee getting a great player, but they were dumping a useless player on a big money contract in Bledsoe. Bledsoe was pure highly negative value and that's why they had to sweeten the pot with that third pick. And Holiday wasn't forcing his way out of town like Simmons so Milwaukee didn't have NO's GM bent over the table. Also Holiday is Simmons on defense but with an efficient offensive game and a pretty high quality three point shot while shooting a decent amount of them per game, so I disagree they're similar caliber players. Simmons is potential, and with high bust potential. Holiday is a finished product.

  14. #564
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    Because that ball hog power forward is infinitely better ..
    Hes really not. he has a bigger name and is on a better team but he is not better. Part of the reason I dont get why so many people want him.

  15. #565
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    Hes really not. he has a bigger name and is on a better team but he is not better. Part of the reason I dont get why so many people want him.
    He is and it's not close....but we're all allowed to have our own opinions..

  16. #566
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    He is and it's not close....but we're all allowed to have our own opinions..
    Like holy , we're basically talking about how many assets should the Spurs spend to turn Murray into the star version of himself. I wouldn't accept any Simmons deal that left Murray on the team. It'd be like trading for Myles Turner but not wanting to give up Poeltl in the process.

  17. #567
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    Like holy , we're basically talking about how many assets should the Spurs spend to turn Murray into the star version of himself. I wouldn't accept any Simmons deal that left Murray on the team. It'd be like trading for Myles Turner but not wanting to give up Poeltl in the process.
    Yup... it amazes me how one playoff series skews the vision of people trying to evaluate him... getting him actually gives us a potential path to becoming a legit team again.

  18. #568
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    Simmons proved he wasn't capable of performing in the playoffs. He was a disaster, and will continue to be. He made a choice to not shoot in fourth quarters.

    If the goal is to eventually win a le, Simmons isn't getting the Spurs there, ever.

    He couldn't get out of the second round with an MVP-caliber Embiid carrying him.

    I had been lukewarm on moving Murray and pieces for him, but after enough time to think it through, I'm out. Wouldn't even trade Murray for him.

  19. #569
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    We're only adding assets to Murray due to vast contract differences without vast talent differences. It's not one bad playoff he hasn't had any offense since entering league while dj improves every year. He'll come out this year n show us why we don't need Ben

  20. #570
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    It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

    And no, I'd trade a ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

    Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy , most Spurs champions have personal -ups worse than what Simmons did.

  21. #571
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    I think the Spurs would be digging themselves deep holes every first quarter playing Murray and Simmons together. I'd only trade White if the Spurs already had a deal lined up to move Murray for a guard with some range who has reasonable defensive skills. They have no shot at Beal for Murray since Beal is happy in Washington and the Bulls aren't going to dump Lavine after all the money they spent this summer on Ball and DeRozan to try to build a winning team. I think Murray is a better player than White but not next to Simmons. Spurs can't expect to hold teams into the 80s and win like it was the 1990s.
    I know a lot of Nuggets fans are keen on trading their Murray for White and Aminu. I think a Jamal and Ben back court would fit together really nicely, and if Vassell and Johnson are both still on the team, they could grow into a strong perimeter around Poeltl or some better-suited center. It would mean that 2022-2023 is a learning/adjustment year. But the talent infusion would be really interesting, especially if it left the Spurs with most of their picks to make another big trade.

    Of course, there's also no universe in which DJM is better than White. They aren't close. White's closer to Simmons than DeJounte is to him.

  22. #572
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    I know a lot of Nuggets fans are keen on trading their Murray for White and Aminu. I think a Jamal and Ben back court would fit together really nicely, and if Vassell and Johnson are both still on the team, they could grow into a strong perimeter around Poeltl or some better-suited center. It would mean that 2022-2023 is a learning/adjustment year. But the talent infusion would be really interesting, especially if it left the Spurs with most of their picks to make another big trade.

    Of course, there's also no universe in which DJM is better than White. They aren't close. White's closer to Simmons than DeJounte is to him.
    Nuggets fans may be keen on that but I can't imagine the Nuggets GM would.

  23. #573
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    It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

    And no, I'd trade a ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

    Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy , most Spurs champions have personal -ups worse than what Simmons did.
    Yeah, no. It’s not one play, not one playoffs that people see as the nail in the coffin for Ben. It’s the stagnant level of play, the amount of field goals over time that has decreased when it matters most. This is a ing supposed star who is shooting no more than 10 field goals per game in the playoffs.

    The statements that are being made on here are ridiculous. I think what irks me most is the overrating of Ben and the use of Murray to prop him up. It doesn’t bother me that people are disillusioned about what Murray’s value is, but this love affair for a player who will somehow elevate the team into much more than what DeMar did is appalling. But no surprise when the same group of people were in love with LMA and DeMar on this team are in love with a third tier-at-best player in Simmons. People are going to read this post wrong and assume I’m saying Simmons is trash— he’s not. But he’s not a savior who will improve the team’s trajectory in any way than what we’ve seen in the past three years.

  24. #574
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    You never really hear a Spurs move....... it just happens
    Which is exactly why this whole Ben Simmons thing isn't going to happen.

  25. #575
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    Yeah, no. It’s not one play, not one playoffs that people see as the nail in the coffin for Ben. It’s the stagnant level of play, the amount of field goals over time that has decreased when it matters most. This is a ing supposed star who is shooting no more than 10 field goals per game in the playoffs.

    The statements that are being made on here are ridiculous. I think what irks me most is the overrating of Ben and the use of Murray to prop him up. It doesn’t bother me that people are disillusioned about what Murray’s value is, but this love affair for a player who will somehow elevate the team into much more than what DeMar did is appalling. But no surprise when the same group of people were in love with LMA and DeMar on this team are in love with a third tier-at-best player in Simmons. People are going to read this post wrong and assume I’m saying Simmons is trash— he’s not. But he’s not a savior who will improve the team’s trajectory in any way than what we’ve seen in the past three years.
    No. It's not one play. What it is is a dillusional sect of the fanbase that doesn't understand that being able to find flaws in a player isn't the same as that player being bad, and that a player having potential to improve isn't the same them being better than other guys who are more differentiated.

    Nobody is saying this trade would save the franchise by itself. It doesn't have to. The Spurs are giving up very little of note to make it happen. They aren't setting a rebuild back much or anything. They're just getting a massive infusion of talent for spare parts. Doing like saying Simmons is so bad that Embiid can't drag him to the ECF is moon logic. Somehow the failure is being attributed to the second banana's inability to be a first banana rather than the first banana's ability to be a first banana. This is ignoring that Simmons wouldn't be expected to carry the Spurs to a le. It's just, no. Both Simmons and Embiid bear responsibility for that series. Blaming it on Simmons alone or that play is just a meme.

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