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  1. #176
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    DeRozan is not better than Walker. In the last 6 games Walker is averaging 10.7 PPG in 18 minutes. He could easily get 20 per game in 36-38 minutes per night if you run plays for him and give him enough shots while spacing the floor and defending better than DeRozan
    That's not how rate stats work. I love Walker and was one of the founders of his fan club. But he has a long way to go to be better than DeRozan. Pop should be running more plays in general and definitely for Walker when Lonnie is out there. The best I could realistically hope for this season though is that he becomes consistent enough to replace Forbes as the starting two and shows enough promise to where the Spurs don't overcommit to DeMar. Guys just don't get multiple All-Stars and playoff appearances and make an All-NBA teams because they have good rate stats playing like a third of a game.

  2. #177
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    This is a very simplistic viewpoint and doesn't take into account the improved offensive pace and ball movement with DDR not on this squad. This is the reason he’s not that valuable around the league. In fact this was a question posed to a GM recently on ESPN and he stated he only likes DDR as a 3rd option. Also, the east was very weak those years the Raptors were winning reg season games. They probably would have been an 8 seed in the west if not missed the playoffs. Point being, we are not winning with him and I much rather ride with Walker who at least plays some semblances of defense instead of DDR’s loser mentality.
    The Raptors were a consistent playoff team, not a team that had a magical season to make a five-seed one year. They weren't contenders in the West for sure, but they had seasons that would be pretty desirable for Spurs fans right now. Third options are valuable. The Spurs don't have one and really haven't with Gay showing clear limitations. It's not like any of the young guards are doing that right now. I'm also not sure that the pace is purely a DeRozan problem given that he starts with Aldridge and Gay -- two guys who have often been on the bench during the Spurs' recent comebacks. DeRozan is usually on the court for those.

  3. #178
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    The Raptors were a consistent playoff team, not a team that had a magical season to make a five-seed one year. They weren't contenders in the West for sure, but they had seasons that would be pretty desirable for Spurs fans right now. Third options are valuable. The Spurs don't have one and really haven't with Gay showing clear limitations. It's not like any of the young guards are doing that right now. I'm also not sure that the pace is purely a DeRozan problem given that he starts with Aldridge and Gay -- two guys who have often been on the bench during the Spurs' recent comebacks. DeRozan is usually on the court for those.
    He is also usually on the court for our 4th quarter collapses and has a lot to do with them...conversely he isn't usually the catalyst of our comebacks...it's almost always the young guys

  4. #179
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Elite role player or not, he's a useful piece
    He's not.

    Who cares about his contract?
    A lot of people should care about his contract. It's that bad. I also don't see how one can argue getting another ball-dominant guard who would be more useless on defense is better. Like sure, he can defend smalls better than DeMar can. But he better not be better at it than Murray and White, and if that's true, then DeMar being able to play at forward is more important, even for the defense.

    Then don't act holier than thou.
    Um... It's not about me trying to have a conversation with you but you continuing to bring up irrelevant things.

    You're too fixated on S bag and Gordon though.
    I'm not even a little fixated on Leonard though. That's kinda the point. You argued he was a consideration in the motivation to get value back for DeRozan. I don't think he is. Gordon, I'm only arguing because no one has brought up anyone else. The main point is that I don't see a point in trading DeRozan or Aldridge for present value.

    Based on what, box score stats? Look at impact stats, like RAMP, where Aldridge and DeRozan are literally among the worst in the league.
    Eh, I don't think impact stats have ever been kind to them, even when it was obviously they were playing really well. Those stats are also pretty unstable right now, with RPM having Mills as clearly the Spurs most impactful player.

    Damn near everything is the problem. Mills, Poeltl and maybe Lyles are the only rotation players (Walker and Carroll are incomplete), who have performed up to snuff, relatively speaking.

    Wrong. Bertans was the same player, only in a lesser role because this senile organization didn't know what they had (even though it was obvious). He led them in net rating.
    Yes, the team is playing worse. We keep on agreeing on that. But they aren't actually a worse team. They are underperforming. Coaching.

    DAF will never let me forget Bertans' stats, so I know them. But the point remains that his production as a Spur isn't what is hurting the club right now. Even if he were a secret superstar, the bit role that Pop (stupidly?) laid out for him wasn't determining the team's fate.

    Man, you sound like a casual fan. They're 24 games in, have among the most continuity, have been been among, if not the, healthiest team(s), have played the 12th easiest schedule, yet sit 22nd in point differential and 24th in simple rating system. They suck.
    Yes, they've played like . They're having games where they are missing easy passes, ing up defensive rotations and clanking free throws. That's not because the roster lacks folks who can shoot a ball into a hoop from the line or who can run to a designated spot or who can toss a ball several feet. It's because all or most of the players don't seem to have their heads in the games, especially for the first 30 or so minutes. It's definitely not a case where the players themselves are blameless. They need to play better. The point is they physically CAN play better and aren't, and that's a coaching issue. I said this last year when they were terrible going into December, and folks (probably you among them) argued that it wasn't fixable given their personnel. But they put it together, became an average defense and made a run. This squad dug a way deeper hole, but not only is the bottom half of the Western bracket still within reach, but they have a way higher ceiling this year. Seriously, had they just held on against Cleveland, they'd be tied for the seventh seed right now.

    For a team trying to win a le, being seventh and having a losing record wouldn't be anything to smile about. But if the goal is to continue to streak and keep the young players in a compe ive environment, then being in a playoff spot after playing about as badly as possible to start the season would be something to build on.

  5. #180
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    He is also usually on the court for our 4th quarter collapses and has a lot to do with them...conversely he isn't usually the catalyst of our comebacks...it's almost always the young guys
    I don't disagree that he has been too keen to take over games where he hasn't led the comeback. There are times where the Spurs tie it based on someone else catching fire, and Pop for some reason still calls a DeRozan iso to end the game. The one that comes to my mind the most is that Lakers' game from last year where Pop let DeMar iso to end the fourth quarter and the first overtime to see him mess up both. Pop shouldn't do that, but that's something within the club's power to fix. If they just called plays for other people, then you get the DeRozan who clearly isn't impeding the comebacks while also not getting the one burping up terrible long-twos with no movement.

  6. #181
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    I don't disagree that he has been too keen to take over games where he hasn't led the comeback. There are times where the Spurs tie it based on someone else catching fire, and Pop for some reason still calls a DeRozan iso to end the game. The one that comes to my mind the most is that Lakers' game from last year where Pop let DeMar iso to end the fourth quarter and the first overtime to see him mess up both. Pop shouldn't do that, but that's something within the club's power to fix. If they just called plays for other people, then you get the DeRozan who clearly isn't impeding the comebacks while also not getting the one burping up terrible long-twos with no movement.
    But you probably do get the Dumbmar who mopes and loafs. Isn't it really the exact same issue we have with Touches?

  7. #182
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    I don't disagree that he has been too keen to take over games where he hasn't led the comeback. There are times where the Spurs tie it based on someone else catching fire, and Pop for some reason still calls a DeRozan iso to end the game. The one that comes to my mind the most is that Lakers' game from last year where Pop let DeMar iso to end the fourth quarter and the first overtime to see him mess up both. Pop shouldn't do that, but that's something within the club's power to fix. If they just called plays for other people, then you get the DeRozan who clearly isn't impeding the comebacks while also not getting the one burping up terrible long-twos with no movement.
    I wouldn't talk to any of these guys because they don't understand the game. All they do is look at stats and judge who is good/bad. I've played basketball and there's No way metrics can tell the whole story. Lonnie Walker has been excellent in his minutes this year but to say he is an all around better player than DeMar right now is idiotic. If DeMar wasn't on the team would Walker facilitate like DeRozan? Most people on this site have obviously never played organized basketball or else they wouldn't make half the suggestions they do.

  8. #183
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    But you probably do get the Dumbmar who mopes and loafs. Isn't it really the exact same issue we have with Touches?
    Yeah, exactly the problem, and it's the ultimate reason why DeMar actually stunts the growth of our young players: he feels like he's the best player on the court, and thus is en led to a certain amount of shots/touches/end of game situation shots. Neither him nor LMA are fans of distribution and would rather take contested shots rather than make the extra pass (or any pass whatsoever); the ultimate anti-Spurs mentality.

    You also can't experiment with starting a game with either of them on the bench in favor of other young players, or have them sitting out for long periods of time, since they start to fumble and play uninterested. The sooner we get rid of either of them, the better.

  9. #184
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    I saw one rumor earlier today that proposed Demar for Dion waiters, James Johnson, and a 1st round pick. Now Demar s the bed daily but damn that’s a gross ass trade for SA and those are kinda deals most likely being offered for Demar or Aldridge

  10. #185
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    I saw one rumor earlier today that proposed Demar for Dion waiters, James Johnson, and a 1st round pick. Now Demar s the bed daily but damn that’s a gross ass trade for SA and those are kinda deals most likely being offered for Demar or Aldridge
    That's nothing but a simple-minded salary match. In millions, Waiters is 12 Johnson is 15 and DDR is 27.

  11. #186
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    But you probably do get the Dumbmar who mopes and loafs. Isn't it really the exact same issue we have with Touches?
    Aldridge is undoubtedly the best player on the team when engaged, and the team should try to get him there as much as possible. The issue is that they build way too much of their offense of LMA isos and very little on plays that put him in good position for quick scores. If you did that, then his isos would have more weight, since he'd already be in rhythm. Even with all that, Pop still doesn't tend to force it to Aldridge if other people did the comeback. He's the third option behind DMDR and Gay (and maybe even Mills) unless he's already on fire.

  12. #187
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    Aldridge is undoubtedly the best player on the team when engaged, and the team should try to get him there as much as possible. The issue is that they build way too much of their offense of LMA isos and very little on plays that put him in good position for quick scores. If you did that, then his isos would have more weight, since he'd already be in rhythm. Even with all that, Pop still doesn't tend to force it to Aldridge if other people did the comeback. He's the third option behind DMDR and Gay (and maybe even Mills) unless he's already on fire.
    Actually, I thought we were discussing Dumbmar... But, friend, it is just incorrect to say Touches is anything less than a 2nd or 1B option. 3rd and 4th options do not carry his scoring average. I also think you are putting the horse before the cart when you say that they build very little of their offense on plays that put him in a quick position to score as if it is the team's choice. I think LMA prefers the iso game rather than having to hustle and get in position for early/quick offense. In fact, I believe that was part of his initial issue with Pop's efforts to "mold" his game when he wanted to be traded. And his entire career demonstrates that he much prefers to pick and pop rather than pick and roll. That said, he does work much better with Derrick in the game than with Murray or even Dumbmar.

  13. #188
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Actually, I thought we were discussing Dumbmar
    You brought up Aldridge. My point was that he's so easily the best player on team that getting him to play to his potential is the focus of any win-now strategy. It's not the same as DeRozan, who will be engaged simply being the primary ball-handler in whatever unit he plays on.

    But, friend, it is just incorrect to say Touches is anything less than a 2nd or 1B option. 3rd and 4th options do not carry his scoring average.
    Aldridge is the second option in general this year, but in end-of-game situations, he's very low down. I had been under the assumption that our discussion was about crunch-time performance.

    I also think you are putting the horse before the cart when you say that they build very little of their offense on plays that put him in a quick position to score as if it is the team's choice. I think LMA prefers the iso game rather than having to hustle and get in position for early/quick offense. In fact, I believe that was part of his initial issue with Pop's efforts to "mold" his game when he wanted to be traded. And his entire career demonstrates that he much prefers to pick and pop rather than pick and roll.
    I think LMA's issue was with essentially being a Tyson Chandler. Not going to defend his reluctance to play winning ball other than to say that I believe he's come around more to that over the years. Regardless, there's a difference between having him run PnR all the time and having plays that screen him for deep posting position and duck-ins. Too much of the time, they give him the ball 20 feet from the basket. I don't think that's really what Aldridge wants. There's definitely some of it on him, because you're right that he'd get great early position more often if he consistently hustled. But even if he's not there early, you don't have to run static post plays for him.

    That said, he does work much better with Derrick in the game than with Murray or even Dumbmar.
    The data so far this year disagrees. LMA has been 1.5 net points per 36 with DeRozan than with White, and Murray has the worst pairing with LMA of any player who are in the top-10 minutes played with him this season. No disagreement that the two need to run more plays together. But the distaste for DeRozan has covered up that neither of the young PGs has been playing good ball for most of the year to date.

  14. #189
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    You brought up Aldridge. My point was that he's so easily the best player on team that getting him to play to his potential is the focus of any win-now strategy. It's not the same as DeRozan, who will be engaged simply being the primary ball-handler in whatever unit he plays on.



    Aldridge is the second option in general this year, but in end-of-game situations, he's very low down. I had been under the assumption that our discussion was about crunch-time performance.



    I think LMA's issue was with essentially being a Tyson Chandler. Not going to defend his reluctance to play winning ball other than to say that I believe he's come around more to that over the years. Regardless, there's a difference between having him run PnR all the time and having plays that screen him for deep posting position and duck-ins. Too much of the time, they give him the ball 20 feet from the basket. I don't think that's really what Aldridge wants. There's definitely some of it on him, because you're right that he'd get great early position more often if he consistently hustled. But even if he's not there early, you don't have to run static post plays for him.



    The data so far this year disagrees. LMA has been 1.5 net points per 36 with DeRozan than with White, and Murray has the worst pairing with LMA of any player who are in the top-10 minutes played with him this season. No disagreement that the two need to run more plays together. But the distaste for DeRozan has covered up that neither of the young PGs has been playing good ball for most of the year to date.
    Even if we are limiting the discussion to crunch time I still think he is the second option.

    I think his whole career shows that he wants the ball around 16-18 feet from the basket, and he absolutely loves his fade-away. I am not sure your raw scoring figure comparison is germane to our discussion. No doubt that slight increase in points is related to his touches in that 16-18 foot “sweet spot.” The statistic you cite doesn’t really even address his efficiency or effectiveness or what is best for the team. I may be thinking more about the Derrick/LMA combo of last season than the current one; however, considering the whole body of their time together on the floor, I do believe the Derrick/LMA combo improves LMA’s efficiency and is much better for the team’s overall performance. It is really unfortunate and cause for some concern that both Derrick and Dijon have not played up to potential/expectations. But again, I think Pop’s handling of starting lineups at season’s start, his whacked rotations and indulgence/insistence on Dumbmar’s being the centerpiece have all contributed to the malaise.

  15. #190
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    Ppl are clearly confusing talent with what's best for the team... The classic example is Melo... Is Melo talented? Yes... Was he the most talented player on the Knicks? Yes .. was he a too 3 talent on all the other teams he went to after that? Yes... Is his gamegood for most of the teams he was on? No...

    That's what's happening with DeMar and LMA... they're talented .. but they're not what's best for our team... Trading them is what's best ... And that has to do with their at ude and fragile mentality... There is such a thing as a team cancer and loser mentality

    U can play on a playoff team and still have a loser mentality... See DDR .. u can also not have made it to the playoffs and have a winner's mentality...

  16. #191
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    That's not how rate stats work. I love Walker and was one of the founders of his fan club. But he has a long way to go to be better than DeRozan. Pop should be running more plays in general and definitely for Walker when Lonnie is out there. The best I could realistically hope for this season though is that he becomes consistent enough to replace Forbes as the starting two and shows enough promise to where the Spurs don't overcommit to DeMar. Guys just don't get multiple All-Stars and playoff appearances and make an All-NBA teams because they have good rate stats playing like a third of a game.
    I do not think there are very many people who watch basketball who would watch Lonnie play and then watch Derozan play and say "I would want Derozan".

    Derozan is everything you DONT want in a guard or a wing. He doesn't take 3's...he is awful on defense...now he doesn't even make freethrows when he needs to. He pouts and makes bone headed decisions. He doesn't catch and shoot.

    Overcommit to Derozan? It would be a catastrophic failure to even offer this guy a contract. It is already beyond negligent that he hasn't been traded yet.

  17. #192
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    The Raptors were a consistent playoff team, not a team that had a magical season to make a five-seed one year. They weren't contenders in the West for sure, but they had seasons that would be pretty desirable for Spurs fans right now.
    Sure but doesn’t change the fact that we play out west so duplicating the Raptors regular season success won’t be possible. Also, the Spurs are about championships and DDR has shown time & time again here and with the Raptors that he comes up small in the playoffs.

    Third options are valuable. The Spurs don't have one and really haven't with Gay showing clear limitations. It's not like any of the young guards are doing that right now. I'm also not sure that the pace is purely a DeRozan problem given that he starts with Aldridge and Gay -- two guys who have often been on the bench during the Spurs' recent comebacks. DeRozan is usually on the court for those.
    A third option with a max salary, I’ll pass. A guy who plays no defense, has bad body language when things don’t go his way and doesn’t deserve to be treated as if he’s a superstar. He’s a net negative player and we are not winning with him anyways so what’s the point exactly?

  18. #193
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    Trade somebody. Trade anybody. Even the waterboy or better yet the half time yucks for some real cheerleaders.

  19. #194
    2 Doors Down BillMc's Avatar
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  20. #195
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    He is definitely stunting them to an extent. Not only does he take away ball handling and scoring opportunities from every young player, he simply forces them to feed him for an offense-killing, inefficient score attempt every single time. He makes Murray and White's jobs harder by being ass on defense, forcing them to help. He sets the mood of the team and constantly gives up on plays, especially on defense, whilst taking every last minute shot and being ass at it. How is any of this not demoralizing and damaging to the rest of the players?

    Yes, Murray wouldn't instantly learn to shoot 3's, but he'd get a lot more chances to try them. God knows I'd much rather have DJ try and miss a thousand 3s for his own development than watch DeMar, a known quan y and developed player, taking yet another contested 20ft shot. LMA is also a problem for the team; not only has his defense been very bad this season as well as DD's, his heavily declining athleticism impedes him from running the naturally fast-paced offense that the young players prefer. You saw DJ at the start of the season, running on transition and initiating fast offense... Only to have to wait for LA's corpse to drag up the court and demand the ball. And you know there's orders from above to give it to him.

    DeMar and LMA are inequivocally stunting the Spurs. Any other average replacement players, simply by virtue of not being "stars" that need their touches, would make the team cohesiveness better. Would the team overall be better? Maybe not, we'd probably lose more games. But it would be watchable, instead of the trash product we're currently rolling out.
    Exactly

  21. #196
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    What this team needs now is some draft picks that the next coach can work with. Because he/she sure as isn't going to build a winner around Aldridge and DeRozan. Stretching to be first round fodder isn't a strategy, it's retirement on the payroll for a bored old coach.
    Perfectly stated. It’s pretty obvious. The FO is picking pop over the franchise, it’s players, and the fans.

  22. #197
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    Perfectly stated. It’s pretty obvious. The FO is picking pop over the franchise, it’s players, and the fans.
    It's obvious most of you have never played sports at compe ive level to think that this is bad for the players. Ask any young player in that locker room if they would want to just play non compe ive basketball or try and compete to make the playoffs. When you start that non compe ive you get the Sacramento Kings, Minnesota timberwolves .

  23. #198
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    Ppl are clearly confusing talent with what's best for the team... The classic example is Melo... Is Melo talented? Yes... Was he the most talented player on the Knicks? Yes .. was he a too 3 talent on all the other teams he went to after that? Yes... Is his gamegood for most of the teams he was on? No...

    That's what's happening with DeMar and LMA... they're talented .. but they're not what's best for our team... Trading them is what's best ... And that has to do with their at ude and fragile mentality... There is such a thing as a team cancer and loser mentality

    U can play on a playoff team and still have a loser mentality... See DDR .. u can also not have made it to the playoffs and have a winner's mentality...
    Perfectly stated.

  24. #199
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    It's obvious most of you have never played sports at compe ive level to think that this is bad for the players. Ask any young player in that locker room if they would want to just play non compe ive basketball or try and compete to make the playoffs. When you start that non compe ive you get the Sacramento Kings, Minnesota timberwolves .
    It is obvious from watching the lack of execution/concentration/dedication/intensity/passion of the players on the floor that the situation is already bad for the players. Pop has absolutely lost them.

    Once lost, a compe ive/winning culture, indeed, is extremely hard to restore. But their at ude shows that culture is already dissipating quickly. We already have Sacramento/Minnesota . While I do not advocate tanking, I believe that there is another alternative. I think the Spurs can get enough return on Dumbmar and LMA to win-build, as DPG21920 calls it.

  25. #200
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    It's obvious most of you have never played sports at compe ive level to think that this is bad for the players. Ask any young player in that locker room if they would want to just play non compe ive basketball or try and compete to make the playoffs. When you start that non compe ive you get the Sacramento Kings, Minnesota timberwolves .
    It is obvious from your comment that you have clearly never played or coached at any level

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