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  1. #376
    #21 timtonymanu's Avatar
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    San Antonio Heat!

  2. #377
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    I have no hatred. And Bill Russell, who is ahead of LBJ on my list, was as outspoken and as powerful as they come. Both in the NBA and civil rights.

    As far as arguments. There are plenty.

    He has a losing record in the finals against other major contemporaries. Duncan, Curry, Dirk. Maybe even Garnett in the Eastern playoffs (not sure). That itself is an argument. He's missed the playoffs. Duncan always found a way. Remind me when Duncan melted down in the finals like LeBron did in '11?

    For historic players = Kareem has more points, more MVPS, more championships. And also lead UCLA to 4 les. Sure, LBJ didn't even go to college but I'm guessing it unlikely he'd have won a le every year. Definitely if there was only 1 slot for the Bball HOF between Kareem and LBJ, Kareem would get it. He's easily the best or second best (to Jordan) player of all time. Unless you just go by les. Then its Russell.

    Magic also won more les. And he did so against all time teams like the Moses/Dr. J 76ers, the Bird Celtics, the Bad Boy Pistons. He also faced early Jordan. He also passes the eye test better than LBJ.

    Wilt lived in the era of those unstoppable Celtics, which cost him some les, but he still managed 2 les and put up stats that will never be matched. You can make an argument for him.

    Anyway, my point really isn't which of those players is the better than LeBron. It's that there are arguments. It's this media-pushed notion that the Goat is either LBJ or Jordan and no one else. This is just a combination of ways to generate interest and something to give the talking heads something to spew about "Is the guy currently best in the game, the greatest ever?" because that is not as sexy as remembering that there have been many contenders in the history of the league, and you can make an argument based on whatever criteria you wish.

    But, at least, I'd take Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell over LBJ. And maybe our own Duncan too.

    And while they'd be lower overall career than LBJ, I'd take Wilt, Bird and Shaq at their peaks over him too. The Laker faithful will bring up Kobe too, but I'd have him well below everyone else I mentioned including LBJ.
    Russell was old school, which meant being subtler. James is more in your face, which generally bothers white people, especially older ones.

    Again, outside of the '11 Finals, which of those series did he have a chance to win? He quietly played out of his mind in the '14 Finals and his team still lost by a record 70 points over 5 games. He missed the playoffs last season while injured and with a mediocre at best team in a deep conference.

    You're just spouting results without context. Given James' level of play, it's fair to say if you gave him the cir stances of someone like Abdul-Jabbar and especially Russell (limited teams/rounds back then), he'd have done the same thing. Chamberlain's counting stats are also due in significant part to the era. This is another reason why catch all metrics paint a clearer picture.

    None of these players faced all time teams like the Spurs, Warriors and to a lesser extent Celtics, with mostly significantly worse teams ('13 and '15 were exceptions).

  3. #378
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Inarguably? No. You can certainly make arguments for Kareem (without a doubt), Magic, Russell, even contemporaries like Duncan, Shaq. He's kind of a Wilt. Physical marvel. He could easily be 1-8 in Finals without Kyrie and Allen. Maybe, you disagree but "inarguable" no. My guess is you never watched Magic play. Or Bird, who with health, would be ahead of LBJ too likely.

    The fact that LBJ tries to game the system, tamper, etc might prove he's smart to some but to me proves he doesn't really want to compete and hurts him on my list. As I said, his biggest asset is his health.

    I'd have him in the mid of my Top Ten, maybe even near the bottom.

    If he ever watched Magic play, it was in a YouTube highlight montage. (Just so the children are clear - Magic was a physcial phenom, too.) Nobody ever wins Top 10 arguments. But while LeBron deserves a place in the Top 10, he is not "inarguably" at the top of the list.

    LeBron has a lot of Finals failures because he chose to spend his whole career in the East, so he got more than his share of Finals appearances. He finally comes to the West with the assurance of playing on a super-team. But if they had failed this year the media talking heads would still say, "This doesn't change anything."

    As for the other stuff? Russell was an activist and an advocate for justice. LeBron is a pimp. Russell stood up when he had MUCH more to lose. LeBron jumped on a bandwagon. and fills his pockets with both hands. But whether it's on the court or off the court, Russell got results and made things better. Bill Russell influenced people to change their behaviors. LeBron influenced them to drink Sprite. I guess that's technically a change of behavior.

  4. #379
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    Your hatred (nothing scares whitey like a dark, outspoken, powerful black man who's unafraid to wield it) is clouding your judgement. There's no credible argument for anyone but Jordan being better.

    Like I said, sure he's tried to game the system, but he's also had flawed teams (negative overlap with Wade and no center/defensive anchor; Irving/Love were defensive liabilities; no legit third option/poor spacing on Lakers).

    If the eye test doesn't do it for you, the absurd advanced stats and longevity of them should.
    You're accusing someone of being racist with zero proof. People are very quick to pull the racist card whenever someone disagrees with them these days. "You can't accept that Lebron James is a top-2 all-time talent...you must be a racist" is exactly what you just said. Not a good look for you, or anyone, who chooses to talk out of their ass without the ability to back it up.

    As BillMc points out, there are lots of great players that could be included in that all-time greatest argument. It just depends on how you rank their attributes and accomplishments. The media props up Lebron as the GOAT. I'm not sure he's earned it, unchallenged. He's worthy of inclusion, but I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion by any stretch. Wilt, Russell and Kareem, all have an argument for that top spot with Jordan.

  5. #380
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    . The media props up Lebron as the GOAT. .
    Pretty sure they are still propping up MJ as the GOAT

  6. #381
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    Guess it's up to the Heat now. Would be an amazing story if they could win it all.

  7. #382
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    Russell was old school, which meant being subtler. James is more in your face, which generally bothers white people, especially older ones.

    Again, outside of the '11 Finals, which of those series did he have a chance to win? He quietly played out of his mind in the '14 Finals and his team still lost by a record 70 points over 5 games. He missed the playoffs last season while injured and with a mediocre at best team in a deep conference.

    You're just spouting results without context. Given James' level of play, it's fair to say if you gave him the cir stances of someone like Abdul-Jabbar and especially Russell (limited teams/rounds back then), he'd have done the same thing. Chamberlain's counting stats are also due in significant part to the era. This is another reason why catch all metrics paint a clearer picture.

    None of these players faced all time teams like the Spurs, Warriors and to a lesser extent Celtics, with mostly significantly worse teams ('13 and '15 were exceptions).
    Russel was not subtle. I watched a few do entaries about him and during his playing days he spoke out for civil rights and against racism much like Lebron is doing today except he was dealing with a much more harsher climate. His own house got vandalized and broken into a few times simply because people didn't like him living in a white neighborhood. Russel was not loved by white people in his playing days if anything he was much more hated than Lebron since the racial tension was even greater than what it is today.

  8. #383
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    If he ever watched Magic play, it was in a YouTube highlight montage. (Just so the children are clear - Magic was a physcial phenom, too.) Nobody ever wins Top 10 arguments. But while LeBron deserves a place in the Top 10, he is not "inarguably" at the top of the list.

    LeBron has a lot of Finals failures because he chose to spend his whole career in the East, so he got more than his share of Finals appearances. He finally comes to the West with the assurance of playing on a super-team. But if they had failed this year the media talking heads would still say, "This doesn't change anything."

    As for the other stuff? Russell was an activist and an advocate for justice. LeBron is a pimp. Russell stood up when he had MUCH more to lose. LeBron jumped on a bandwagon. and fills his pockets with both hands. But whether it's on the court or off the court, Russell got results and made things better. Bill Russell influenced people to change their behaviors. LeBron influenced them to drink Sprite. I guess that's technically a change of behavior.
    There's no credible argument for anyone but Jordan. Pretending otherwise tells me you're archaic, unknowledgeable, biased or some combination thereof.


    You're accusing someone of being racist with zero proof. People are very quick to pull the racist card whenever someone disagrees with them these days. "You can't accept that Lebron James is a top-2 all-time talent...you must be a racist" is exactly what you just said. Not a good look for you, or anyone, who chooses to talk out of their ass without the ability to back it up.

    As BillMc points out, there are lots of great players that could be included in that all-time greatest argument. It just depends on how you rank their attributes and accomplishments. The media props up Lebron as the GOAT. I'm not sure he's earned it, unchallenged. He's worthy of inclusion, but I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion by any stretch. Wilt, Russell and Kareem, all have an argument for that top spot with Jordan.
    No, I'm not. I'm saying certain white people, particularly older ones, whether subconsciously or not, have a problem with James' sort of "blackness". These are the same types who generally and not coincidentally are fans of Barkley.

    The media props up Jordan as the GOAT and says James is the only other one in the discussion. There's many things to rightfully criticize them about, but this isn't one.


    Russel was not subtle. I watched a few do entaries about him and during his playing days he spoke out for civil rights and against racism much like Lebron is doing today except he was dealing with a much more harsher climate. His own house got vandalized and broken into a few times simply because people didn't like him living in a white neighborhood. Russel was not loved by white people in his playing days if anything he was much more hated than Lebron since the racial tension was even greater than what it is today.
    Subtle might not have been the most appropriate word, but he had a different personality than James.

  9. #384
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    There's no credible argument for anyone but Jordan. Pretending otherwise tells me you're archaic, unknowledgeable, biased or some combination thereof.
    There's certainly an argument for Kareem to be made, don't paint it so black-and-white. All-time lists are incredibly subjective anyways, and unless you're going full scientific method, with tangible parameters for which you judge and rate each participant and , there's definitely room for discussion. In fact, I'd say there's an argument to be made for Timmy as well (but I realize how rich it sounds coming from a Spurs fan). Especially so since LeBron's strongest arguments fall towards the "longevity" part of the "peak vs longevity" usual debate, and both Kareem and Timmy were incredibly longevous in their production.

  10. #385
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    There's certainly an argument for Kareem to be made, don't paint it so black-and-white. All-time lists are incredibly subjective anyways, and unless you're going full scientific method, with tangible parameters for which you judge and rate each participant and , there's definitely room for discussion. In fact, I'd say there's an argument to be made for Timmy as well (but I realize how rich it sounds coming from a Spurs fan). Especially so since LeBron's strongest arguments fall towards the "longevity" part of the "peak vs longevity" usual debate, and both Kareem and Timmy were incredibly longevous in their production.
    Not a credible one. Abdul-Jabbar is more of a consensus third and then you can start debating between Duncan, O'Neal, Johnson, Bird, Chamberlain, etc.

  11. #386
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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  12. #387
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    Not a credible one. Abdul-Jabbar is more of a consensus third and then you can start debating between Duncan, O'Neal, Johnson, Bird, Chamberlain, etc.
    Well, that's kind of your prerrogative... I could very well say LeBron doesn't have a "credible" case for #2. I don't see where LBJ is so above-and-beyond Kareem that there is no argument to be made - and what's "credible" supposed to mean anyways? For starters, Kareem has twice as many rings as LeBron does right now. Looks like a pretty good base for a case to me, tbh.

    To be honest though, I don't really care to go on with the "who's better" debate. Was just pointing out that the media-painted picture of only 2 possibilities for #1 and #2 all-time isn't so set in stone.

  13. #388
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    Well, that's kind of your prerrogative... I could very well say LeBron doesn't have a "credible" case for #2. I don't see where LBJ is so above-and-beyond Kareem that there is no argument to be made - and what's "credible" supposed to mean anyways? For starters, Kareem has twice as many rings as LeBron does right now. Looks like a pretty good base for a case to me, tbh.

    To be honest though, I don't really care to go on with the "who's better" debate. Was just pointing out that the media-painted picture of only 2 possibilities for #1 and #2 all-time isn't so set in stone.
    Watch the games, look at the impact stats (not the counting ones) and you'll know.

    I missed when Abdul-Jabbar had to face significantly better teams in all but one of his Finals losses. Never understood why people just spout Finals records, like all paths are equal.

  14. #389
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Watch the games, look at the impact stats (not the counting ones) and you'll know.

    I missed when Abdul-Jabbar had to face significantly better teams in all but one of his Finals losses. Never understood why people just spout Finals records, like all paths are equal.

    Jabbar had a more unstoppable shot (especially not ref aided), won wins/ les in college, was more dominant defensively, and had 6 MVPS and 6 les. He made his teams even better than James made his. There is no debate versus James.

  15. #390
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    Watch the games, look at the impact stats (not the counting ones) and you'll know.

    I missed when Abdul-Jabbar had to face significantly better teams in all but one of his Finals losses. Never understood why people just spout Finals records, like all paths are equal.
    The best win the games that matter...otherwise you aren't the best.

    If you are arguing that LeBron is the best player to lose 6 Finals, I'll agree with you there.

  16. #391
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    All in on Heat now.

    WWE Lakers could be fixed tho.

  17. #392
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    Lebron is better than Duncan tbh

    As for the Finals I'm rooting for Miami, not because I hate the Lakers, but because I like this Heat team tbh

  18. #393
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Lebron is better than Duncan tbh
    Uh huh.

    Hey let's help you get some tickets to the Lebron movie when it comes out 'kay?

  19. #394
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Uh huh.

    Hey let's help you get some tickets to the Lebron movie when it comes out 'kay?
    Already got them

  20. #395
    Veteran SuperCam's Avatar
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    Already got them

  21. #396
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    Jabbar had a more unstoppable shot (especially not ref aided), won wins/ les in college, was more dominant defensively, and had 6 MVPS and 6 les. He made his teams even better than James made his. There is no debate versus James.
    But did you watch the games and look at impact stats?

  22. #397
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    Jabbar had a more unstoppable shot (especially not ref aided), won wins/ les in college, was more dominant defensively, and had 6 MVPS and 6 les. He made his teams even better than James made his. There is no debate versus James.
    James generated more efficient offense for his team (granted, Abdul-Jabbar's prime was mostly pre 3 and it was in it's infancy in his post prime), never played college, was more versatile defensively, only hasn't won more than 4 MVP's because of vote fatigue and has lost all but one of his Finals to one of the greatest teams of all time.


    The best win the games that matter...otherwise you aren't the best.

    If you are arguing that LeBron is the best player to lose 6 Finals, I'll agree with you there.
    Such nonsense, spouting results without context. If peak James, about as good a player who ever lived, couldn't come close to beating two all time teams in various series, then no one was.


    But did you watch the games and look at impact stats?
    Who needs those when you can spout results without context and rely on counting stats.

  23. #398
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    With the Finals starting, this just got a lot clearer. I would REALLY love to see Miami kill Goliath.

  24. #399
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    With the Finals starting, this just got a lot clearer. I would REALLY love to see Miami kill Goliath.
    , that would be amazing. But the NBA has disappointed me so many times.

  25. #400
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    Look who checked-in to the Finals




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