Players should not be allowed to vote. They tend to be the dumbest out of all the groups that can vote.
I'm not going to lie but if Kawhi gets in I will vomit but there is unfortunately a high chance he will.
Players should not be allowed to vote. They tend to be the dumbest out of all the groups that can vote.
Lebron will get J.R. Reid in.
That’s dumb. There are some in the top 50 that should be bumped out for sure
I never got the love for Pierce. If his career was in Minnesota no one would care as much. Lol at mourning, carter, t-Mac, Webber, Gasol, Dame, being over Tony and Manu
It's a hollow argument in my opinion. Obviously winning has a large effect on overall legacy, and no players have won consistently at the highest level without help.
People who say that Tim had Tony/Manu also need to admit that Jordan had Pippen/Rodman, Kobe had Shaq/Pau/Odom, Lebron had Wade/Bosh/Allen or Irving/Love or Davis, Curry had Thompson/Durant, etc.
It's a tale as old as time...even the Lakers and Celtics of yore were loaded with Hall of Famers going up against teams full of guys nobody even remembers anymore.
There are obviously players who have had outstanding careers without always having the help around them...Iverson, McGrady, Aldridge, Lillard, etc. There are also great players that couldn't succeed consistently despite being on very talented teams like Barkley, Nash, or Harden.
The fact is...if you have rings, you're going to be rated higher than those who do not. And winning rings usually requires a good collection of talent as well as a little fortune.
Basketball-Refererence WS regular season
Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. LeBron James 242.04
4. Karl Malone* 234.63
5. Michael Jordan* 214.02
6. John Stockton* 207.70
7. Tim Duncan* 206.38
8. Dirk Nowitzki 206.34
9. Kevin Garnett* 191.42
10. Artis Gilmore* 189.65
11. Chris Paul 189.54
12. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
13. Shaquille O'Neal* 181.71
14. Julius Erving* 181.11
15. Moses Malone* 179.15
16. David Robinson* 178.67
17. Charles Barkley* 177.21
18. Reggie Miller* 174.40
19. Kobe Bryant* 172.74
20. Bill Russell* 163.51
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
22. Jerry West* 162.58
23. Dan Issel* 157.82
24. Magic Johnson* 155.79
25. Paul Pierce* 150.04
26. Robert Parish* 147.00
27. Kevin Durant 146.71
28. Larry Bird* 145.83
29. Gary Payton* 145.53
30. Ray Allen* 145.08
31. Pau Gasol 144.07
32. Dolph Schayes* 142.40
33. James Harden 141.99
34. Jason Kidd* 138.56
35. Dwight Howard 138.21
Rank Player WS
36. Bob Pet * 136.05
37. Clyde Drexler* 135.57
38. Adrian Dantley* 134.22
39. John Havlicek* 131.72
40. Walt Bellamy* 130.05
41. Steve Nash* 129.73
42. Rick Barry* 128.94
43. Patrick Ewing* 126.45
44. Vince Carter 125.27
45. Scottie Pippen* 125.08
46. Shawn Marion 124.91
47. Chauncey Billups 120.78
48. Elvin Hayes* 120.76
49. Dwyane Wade 120.71
50. Buck Williams 120.09
51. Horace Grant 118.23
52. Dominique Wilkins* 117.47
53. Chet Walker* 117.35
54. Bob Lanier* 117.11
55. Dikembe Mutombo* 116.98
56. George Gervin* 116.28
57. Bailey Howell* 114.82
58. Walt Frazier* 113.54
59. Kevin McHale* 113.04
60. LaMarcus Aldridge 112.57
61. Jack Sikma* 112.46
62. Stephen Curry 112.25
63. Tony Parker 111.33
64. Terry Porter 110.39
65. Wes Unseld* 110.08
66. Elton Brand 109.63
67. Larry Nance 109.57
68. Detlef Schrempf 109.52
69. Jeff Hornacek 108.87
70. Paul Arizin* 108.80
Rank Player WS
71. George Mikan* 108.66
72. Manu Ginóbili 106.40
73. Otis Thorpe 106.39
74. Zelmo Beaty* 106.00
75. Chris Bosh* 106.00
Last edited by Drom John; 08-26-2021 at 10:06 AM.
Basketball-Reference WS playoffs
1. LeBron James 55.68
2. Michael Jordan* 39.76
3. Tim Duncan* 37.84
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
5. Magic Johnson* 32.63
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
7. Shaquille O'Neal* 31.08
8. Kobe Bryant* 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Kevin Durant 25.25
13. Larry Bird* 24.83
14. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.13
16. Karl Malone* 22.99
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.60
18. Kawhi Leonard 22.49
19. Dwyane Wade 21.63
20. John Stockton* 21.35
21. Manu Ginóbili 20.76
22. Kevin McHale* 20.67
23. Chauncey Billups 20.60
24. Horace Grant 20.00
25. Reggie Miller* 19.90
26. Charles Barkley* 19.52
27. John Havlicek* 19.27
28. Chris Paul 19.06
29. James Harden 18.50
30. Robert Horry 18.23
31. Ray Allen* 18.04
32. David Robinson* 17.52
33. Stephen Curry 17.11
34. George Mikan* 16.97
35. Kevin Garnett* 16.42
Rank Player WS
36. Paul Pierce* 16.31
37. Walt Frazier* 15.92
38. Dan Issel* 15.85
39. Robert Parish* 15.57
40. Clyde Drexler* 15.50
41. Pau Gasol 15.50
42. Ben Wallace* 15.41
43. Elgin Baylor* 15.36
44. Rasheed Wallace 15.27
45. Sam Jones* 15.23
46. James Worthy* 14.84
47. Moses Malone* 14.80
48. Roger Brown* 14.80
49. Zelmo Beaty* 14.57
50. Derek Fisher 14.55
51. Jason Kidd* 14.45
52. Jeff Hornacek 14.44
53. Patrick Ewing* 14.06
54. Draymond Green 14.02
55. Dolph Schayes* 13.95
56. Dwight Howard 13.75
57. Oscar Robertson* 13.65
58. Tony Parker 13.56
59. Bobby Jones* 13.36
60. Artis Gilmore* 13.19
61. Dennis Johnson* 13.16
62. Rick Barry* 13.15
63. Maurice Cheeks* 13.14
64. Wes Unseld* 12.71
65. Isiah Thomas* 12.55
66. Andre Iguodala 11.87
67. Steve Nash* 11.87
68. Rajon Rondo 11.83
69. Byron Scott 11.82
70. Bob Pet * 11.74
Rank Player WS
71. Dennis Rodman* 11.74
72. Elvin Hayes* 11.71
73. Richard Hamilton 11.66
74. Terry Porter 11.60
75. Al Horford 11.57
I agree. I feel the haters arguments are silly on why Duncan doesn't deserve to be ranked high. The argument that he had a great coach in Pop is stupid because we don't penalize Jordan,Shaq,Kobe for having Phil or Jabbar,Magic for having Riley or Russell for having Auerbach. Like you said the part about having help from Manu/Parker is also stupid because we don't penalize Jordan for having Pippen/Rodman, Shaq for having Kobe, Kobe for having Gasol, Lebron for having Wade,Bosh,Kyrie,Love,Davis,etc. At the end of the day Duncan gets a lot of hate from casuals simply because he wasn't flashy, charismatic, and didn't play in NYC,LA. I think if he played in NYC or LA, Duncan would be in the conversation for the GOAT.
Last edited by daslicer; 08-26-2021 at 05:15 PM.
I don't know man, I've got the media and the players in a dead heat on a dumbness sweepstakes...
The media is pretty dumb but I view the players as dumber. If it was up to the players voting then Tim Duncan would have never won any of his MVP awards because both times he won it you had players screaming the runner up should have won it in Kidd or Garnett. That is when I stopped trusting players judgment. It's pretty much highschool with these clowns that the way they view you is based on your popularity and not so much your skill set.
Last edited by daslicer; 08-26-2021 at 05:20 PM.
He'll definitely get in despite a relatively thin body of work (and some questionable/tainted accolades), but this notion that he's in a tier above Davis, I missed when that happened.
The latter's '20 playoff run is more impressive than anything he's ever done. He took the Lakers from fringe playoffs to champions and he didn't rest 95 games the previous 2 seasons to do it.
If they consider only NBA achievements / career, Tony should make it before Manu. Now if they consider international career, impact on the team and talent that's the contrary. At the end of the day, we have been lucky to have both playing for SA. They, with Tim, are the winningest trio in NBA history. Nobody will take that away from them.
They're the winningest trio, if McHale and Parish are in there, then Manu and TP should be
Good point.
Per minute, Manu and Tony put up very similar raw numbers, but in terms of effect on winning, Manu's stats are far more advanced & it's really not even close. Higher ORtg, lower Drtg, much better BPM, VORP...
Not sure who is doing it but I know ESPN did the top 74 players of all time last year TP was 70 and Manu was ranked 58.
The difference is ESPN created their list from scratch while this list is just going to be 25 new players added to the old list. If you start from scratch Manu and Tony get in simply because they are some guys on the original top 50 list that they are better then.
If you use WS ranking, both TP & Manu are hurt because they played on some not so great teams at the end of long careers. Both deserve to be on the list.
NBA radio was saying 75 from scratch, which seems like a big disservice to the 50 who were on there originally.
Stats are becoming incomparable now, so people who are picking simply based on box scores will probably put guys like Harden ahead of a lot of former players who are more deserving.
All I know is Manu is better than about half the guys listed in the first top 50 list.
He won't make it though because of counting stats and individual awards.
Neither will make it, or care. You think guys like Westbrook, who will be picked because casuals love counting stats, wouldn’t trade a place on this list for four ing rings?
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