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  1. #1
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Back in the 2016 offseason, I was screaming for the Spurs to do a 1-year tank and rebuild. The team was too weak at the 1 and the 5 to win a championship that season. But much worse, they were right on the cusp of being in the kind of salary cap you see today, with no chance of winning a championship and no tradeable pieces. It should have been obvious to anyone. But PATFO obviously didn't see it. And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out? Instead, the Spurs have wasted the rest of both of their careers.

    At that time, the Spurs could have gotten some value out of Tony Parker. But no... "Tony will retire a Spur. We need to keep him no matter what it costs." Mills wasn't a PG, was never a PG, and was never going to be a PG. I was screaming for the Spurs to sign an undrafted free agent named Fred Van Vleet. He was smart, tough, and a legit PG - just a late bloomer at Wichita. But no... "He's a scrub that can't play in the NBA." And even though Murray has been pretty good for a late first round pick, I was screaming for the Spurs to take Malcolm Brogdon. But no... "Brogdon isn't a first round talent."

    Manu was still salty, that season and the next, but he clearly wasn't the future. They paid him $14M that season, and I know that everyone said that it didn't have any effect on their salary cap. But what signing him did do was allow PATFO to ignore the fact that they had a serious talent deficit coming in that position as well. It kept them from developing a young prospect during the tank/rebuild year. Not to say that they would have replaced him with someone as good as he was, but that they would have had a future. Which is why the year before I wanted the Spurs to draft Josh Richardson. But no... "He's not a first round talent." The Spurs should have let Philly sign Manu for $16M, or whatever the the alleged offer was. Not because Manu wasn't worth having on the roster, but because what the Spurs needed to be building the future.

    The Spurs paid Tony, Manu, and Pau a total of $44M that season, trying to win a championship that they had zero chance of winning. But much worse, by not committing then to a rebuild and bringing in young prospects, they put themselves in the position of doubling down on Pau and Patty later, because new players wouldn't "know the system". The time to teach new players the system should have been during the tank/rebuild year.

    If the Spurs had embraced the rebuild, they could have picked up a legitimate young player in the 2017 draft, and cleared cap space to sign a legit free agent or two. I don't know that they could have kept Kawhi if they had taken serious steps to surround him with better players, but I am personally convinced that the stupid roster/cap moves were a factor in him leaving. You can blame it on his uncle, but the truth is his uncle may have seen the handwriting on the wall.

    When Kawhi demanded the trade, the Spurs STILL didn't commit to a rebuild. When you're rebuilding, the one thing you can't have is upside-down contracts - players who you couldn't get rid of without throwing in another player or a pick as a kicker. When the Spurs traded him, they took back DDR, whose contract was very up side-down. So what should they have done... take players of lesser talent on better contracts? The answer is yes, especially if you get them from a team with a better pick than the Raptors could give. Because the good contracts at least give you trade pieces to rebuild with. But the Spurs didn't do that, because they still hadn't accepted the fact that they could no longer rebuild-in-place.

    Year after year since Duncan retired, the Spurs have been doubling down on stupid. Next year they are locked into three grotesquely upside down contracts in Gasol, Mills, and DeRozan, and one now-slightly upside down in Aldridge. They don't have a single PG on the roster. Next season is the last on Poeltl's contract, and he's the closest thing the Spurs have to a center. So they will very likely feel like their hands are tied and overpay to keep him after next season. (Sadly, they will probably do the same thing with Forbes after next season.)

    The Spurs are in total cap , and there is no end in sight. The only tool in their box for next season is the MLE, unless they decide to part with one of their cheap young players and a pick to get out from under a bad contract - and that means selling the future to get out of past mistakes. And all of this, all of it, could have been prevented by committing to a rebuild in the 2016 offseason. But PATFO was too arrogant to see the truth of where they really were, due to 20 years of talent drain from picking at the bottom of the draft every year.

    At the beginning of this season, I PM'd a couple of people here on ST and told them EXACTLY how this season was going to go. And it has gone exactly like I said it would. I said the best the Spurs could hope for would be to squeak into one of the last two playoff spots, and that would absolutely be the worst thing that they could do. Sure enough, rather than embracing a rebuild even at this late date, they have pushed for a first round exit and middle round draft pick. The worst possible thing. The problem is, in 2016 the Spurs could have prepared for the future by sacrificing a single season, and by cutting ties with the past. Now? The Spurs really need a super-tank and a top-3 pick to recharge the talent pool. The worst part is, PATFO arrogance (especially POP) will probably still keep them from biting the bullet next year. This rebuild is going to be painful and slow.

    And there are a few of you still here who know I told you so. And why. And exactly how this had to play out.

  2. #2
    Veteran spursistan's Avatar
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    Thanks for the write-up.

    I don't agree that 2016 summer was the right time to do a detour and rebuild, but last year surely was.

    On the whole, yes there is sense of chickens coming home to roost for the franchise-- a culmination of three woeful offseasons.

    No sign of major corrective moves as of yet.

  3. #3
    Believe. Kobe'sAchilles's Avatar
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    We lost a top 5 MVP candidate player dude. Malcolm Brogdon and Fred Van Fleet isn't going to make us world beaters. Toronto has a great roster now and Kawhi is going to bolt home for LA. It's not about the roster, it's about him being made.

    And yeah proclaiming the season a struggle for us to make the playoffs after losing Murray and White to start off the year isn't some big news flash. We had zero point guards and zero SF. Yeah we were going to come outta the gate slow and that would hurt us later on in the season. I mean the Spurs have lost 8 outta their past 9 games. That sounds like tanking to me. It's not our fault that Lebron decided to Nuke the Lakers. Odds are though that the Kings pass us anyways and all your ing will be for naught.

    Gasol only costs 6 mil next year. DDR is on a good contract tbh considering what he brings. We have two point guards on our roster in White and Murray btw. We will get the 14th pick and hopefully that will bring us a good player.

  4. #4
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    ^Stopped reading at "Gasol only costs..."

    The Spurs are paying that washed up diva mf'er to sit. Anything he makes is too much. This FO sucks now. Period.

  5. #5
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Thanks for the write-up.

    I don't agree that 2016 summer was the right time to do a detour and rebuild, but last year surely was.

    On the whole, yes there is sense of chickens coming home to roost for the franchise-- a culmination of three woeful offseasons.

    No sign of major corrective moves as of yet.
    The only arguments against doing it in 2016 were sentimentality over Tony/Manu, and the fantasy that they could beat GSW in a 7 game series. A lot of people here think that holding onto Tony and Manu was "the right thing to do". Anyone who thinks that way should stop ing about this season, because the Spurs refusal to rebuild then handcuffed the team into a "win now" mentality that had no chance of bringing home another LOB.

    In 2016, they could have still gotten value from trading Parker. The tank would have gotten them a good pick in 2017 which would have at least put them in line for someone like Donovan Mitc , even if they got unlucky with the ping pong balls. And they wouldn't be saddled with the albatross contracts of Gasol and Mills.

    None of that is hindsight. I said it then, and the moment they signed Gasol I said that the future was screwed. The argument there was that he was the "best available". But he was a falling star, and not nearly enough to close the gap with GSW. The Mills contract, likewise, was the result of the corner they had already painted themselves into. That was just more dirt on the grave, though.

    I think that if you go back and look, 2016 was not only the right time to tank/rebuild, it was the ONLY time to do it. They couldn't do it while Tim was still on the roster, and by 2017 the damage was done. The Pau/Patty deals had put them in cap already. And the ripple effects from that will haunt this team for years.

  6. #6
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    This is all pretty much spot on. I don't think that keeping Manu necessarily contributed that much, but I understand that he took a lot of minutes and was way too old to be part of the future. The biggest mistake was at PG. Parker was clearly on his last legs, and wasn't going to be there to support the Kawhi/LMA core they thought they had. We all knew that he was in his last couple of seasons, and that really is the last chance to get value out of him. But we also knew that there was no way the Spurs would let him retire as anything but a Spur. I guess the joke was on them.

    Lots of people keep saying that there is no need for a big man in "today's NBA". But you at least have to understand that you can't play this modern game without a decent PG, at minimum. This roster literally has no point guards on it. Brogdon is still a combo guard. He isn't the scorer that DDR is, but he's more sure-handed, less of a black hole, and a much better defender. He's damn sure more of a point than Forbes. He would have been a of an addition to the roster. And he would have been really perfect for a rebuilding team. There were also a lot of solid players in the top of that '17 draft to add to the mix.

    I have to say, though, that White really stepped up his game. He's not really a PG either, but he checks all the boxes that Brogdon does. Still, the thought of having them both on the roster, on cheap contracts would be a real luxury. And it might even let DDR live up to his potential as a SG.


    It's not about the roster, it's about him being made.

    We have two point guards on our roster in White and Murray btw. We will get the 14th pick and hopefully that will bring us a good player.


    You're an idiot. I've used my quota of lightning bolts for the day, or I would barbecue your ass right where you sit.

    For more things than I care to list:

    You have been judged and found unworthy.

  7. #7
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    Back in the 2016 offseason, I was screaming for the Spurs to do a 1-year tank and rebuild. The team was too weak at the 1 and the 5 to win a championship that season. But much worse, they were right on the cusp of being in the kind of salary cap you see today, with no chance of winning a championship and no tradeable pieces. It should have been obvious to anyone. But PATFO obviously didn't see it. And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out? Instead, the Spurs have wasted the rest of both of their careers.

    At that time, the Spurs could have gotten some value out of Tony Parker. But no... "Tony will retire a Spur. We need to keep him no matter what it costs." Mills wasn't a PG, was never a PG, and was never going to be a PG. I was screaming for the Spurs to sign an undrafted free agent named Fred Van Vleet. He was smart, tough, and a legit PG - just a late bloomer at Wichita. But no... "He's a scrub that can't play in the NBA." And even though Murray has been pretty good for a late first round pick, I was screaming for the Spurs to take Malcolm Brogdon. But no... "Brogdon isn't a first round talent."

    Manu was still salty, that season and the next, but he clearly wasn't the future. They paid him $14M that season, and I know that everyone said that it didn't have any effect on their salary cap. But what signing him did do was allow PATFO to ignore the fact that they had a serious talent deficit coming in that position as well. It kept them from developing a young prospect during the tank/rebuild year. Not to say that they would have replaced him with someone as good as he was, but that they would have had a future. Which is why the year before I wanted the Spurs to draft Josh Richardson. But no... "He's not a first round talent." The Spurs should have let Philly sign Manu for $16M, or whatever the the alleged offer was. Not because Manu wasn't worth having on the roster, but because what the Spurs needed to be building the future.

    The Spurs paid Tony, Manu, and Pau a total of $44M that season, trying to win a championship that they had zero chance of winning. But much worse, by not committing then to a rebuild and bringing in young prospects, they put themselves in the position of doubling down on Pau and Patty later, because new players wouldn't "know the system". The time to teach new players the system should have been during the tank/rebuild year.

    If the Spurs had embraced the rebuild, they could have picked up a legitimate young player in the 2017 draft, and cleared cap space to sign a legit free agent or two. I don't know that they could have kept Kawhi if they had taken serious steps to surround him with better players, but I am personally convinced that the stupid roster/cap moves were a factor in him leaving. You can blame it on his uncle, but the truth is his uncle may have seen the handwriting on the wall.

    When Kawhi demanded the trade, the Spurs STILL didn't commit to a rebuild. When you're rebuilding, the one thing you can't have is upside-down contracts - players who you couldn't get rid of without throwing in another player or a pick as a kicker. When the Spurs traded him, they took back DDR, whose contract was very up side-down. So what should they have done... take players of lesser talent on better contracts? The answer is yes, especially if you get them from a team with a better pick than the Raptors could give. Because the good contracts at least give you trade pieces to rebuild with. But the Spurs didn't do that, because they still hadn't accepted the fact that they could no longer rebuild-in-place.

    Year after year since Duncan retired, the Spurs have been doubling down on stupid. Next year they are locked into three grotesquely upside down contracts in Gasol, Mills, and DeRozan, and one now-slightly upside down in Aldridge. They don't have a single PG on the roster. Next season is the last on Poeltl's contract, and he's the closest thing the Spurs have to a center. So they will very likely feel like their hands are tied and overpay to keep him after next season. (Sadly, they will probably do the same thing with Forbes after next season.)

    The Spurs are in total cap , and there is no end in sight. The only tool in their box for next season is the MLE, unless they decide to part with one of their cheap young players and a pick to get out from under a bad contract - and that means selling the future to get out of past mistakes. And all of this, all of it, could have been prevented by committing to a rebuild in the 2016 offseason. But PATFO was too arrogant to see the truth of where they really were, due to 20 years of talent drain from picking at the bottom of the draft every year.

    At the beginning of this season, I PM'd a couple of people here on ST and told them EXACTLY how this season was going to go. And it has gone exactly like I said it would. I said the best the Spurs could hope for would be to squeak into one of the last two playoff spots, and that would absolutely be the worst thing that they could do. Sure enough, rather than embracing a rebuild even at this late date, they have pushed for a first round exit and middle round draft pick. The worst possible thing. The problem is, in 2016 the Spurs could have prepared for the future by sacrificing a single season, and by cutting ties with the past. Now? The Spurs really need a super-tank and a top-3 pick to recharge the talent pool. The worst part is, PATFO arrogance (especially POP) will probably still keep them from biting the bullet next year. This rebuild is going to be painful and slow.

    And there are a few of you still here who know I told you so. And why. And exactly how this had to play out.

  8. #8
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Says one of the people who thought the Spurs could beat GSW and win a championship in 2016. But you're right, that was a lot of words. Here's a simple version just for you.

    The team is ed and will be for years. Get used to it. I told you so.

  9. #9
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    like i said when kawhi signed that extension, he shouldve demanded patfo do something about the roster
    instead they kept tosb ginoboli and pos parker around during kawhis prime years, those 2 pos were clearly on t he decline and takin up alot of money
    then they go give bs loyalty contracts to pau and patty.. fck that...

  10. #10
    Derrick White fanboy FkLA's Avatar
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  11. #11
    VanillaPlayerFan BD24's Avatar
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    cliff notes for those that don't want to read, OP is a whiny .

  12. #12
    Veteran superbigtime's Avatar
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    Thanks. None of us have been paying attention.

  13. #13
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out?
    That team won 61 games, got to the WCF and were a freak injury away from having a good chance to win the championship, so it worked pretty damn well.

    They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.

  14. #14
    Watching the collapse benefactor's Avatar
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    cliff notes for those that don't want to read, OP is a whiny .
    Yep...didn't read. Oh, and this:
    This, right here, is why I quit watching the NBA. And it just made me decide that I'm not watching it next year, either. I'm going to follow the Spurs through the Finals, just because I have so much history. But after that, the NBA.
    whiny, in the booty ass poster

  15. #15
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Says one of the people who thought the Spurs could beat GSW and win a championship in 2016. But you're right, that was a lot of words. Here's a simple version just for you.

    The team is ed and will be for years. Get used to it. I told you so.
    Its like your Nostradamus. Who could have guessed that at the end of the big 3 era the Spurs would no longer be perennial contenders. Especially after Kawhi quit. Man, its shocking how smart you are.


    Back in reality, this ownership group is not going to be OK with a tank and rebuild model ever. Ever. You can call for a tank and rebuild all you want. It. Will. Never. Happen.

  16. #16
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    That team won 61 games, got to the WCF and were a freak injury away from having a good chance to win the championship, so it worked pretty damn well.

    They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.
    Exactly. The Spurs will NEVER purposely tank. Never.

  17. #17
    Believe. ernest787's Avatar
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    I love the cap part. They are committed to this team for 1 more year and then have an opportunity to completely shift everything if they so wish

  18. #18
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.

    No, you ignorant . The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs s ed out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.

    BTW - did you even know that the Spurs' revenue went from $187M to $259M that year, due to the new media deal? The Spurs net loss that year had everything to do with the ed up revenue sharing system, and nothing to do with the things you're talking about.

    Everything you said was stupid. But the stupidest thing you said was that the Spurs could have beaten GSW that year.

  19. #19
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    No, you ignorant . The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs s ed out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.

    BTW - did you even know that the Spurs' revenue went from $187M to $259M that year, due to the new media deal? The Spurs net loss that year had everything to do with the ed up revenue sharing system, and nothing to do with the things you're talking about.

    Everything you said was stupid. But the stupidest thing you said was that the Spurs could have beaten GSW that year.
    They lost money, whether they were one of the 9 teams, who lost before revenue sharing, or one of the 14 after it - there are different reports - doesn't matter. They lost money in a season they got to the WCF. It's a fact.

    But go ahead, cry some more, tell us how you really feel.

    I can't be fn of a team that isn't the championship favorite

  20. #20
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    No, you ignorant . The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs s ed out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.
    OMG (Me), I haven't seen that many people get schooled since I tried to teach you children how to make fire. Most of you stuck your fingers in your ears and wouldn't listen then, either.

    BG, your ass is already red from that spanking. You should probably quit before the embarrassment gets worse. And GSH if you're ever in the neighborhood of Olympus, drop in and we'll have a cup of wine.

    But Ernest deserves some special attention:
    I love the cap part. They are committed to this team for 1 more year and then have an opportunity to completely shift everything if they so wish
    You do understand that if/when the Spurs do that, they will be starting over with no stars? And even with cap space they won't be able to attract top tier players to come to San Antonio? So they will have to find one or two stars in the draft? And that means having a bad season or two, whether they do it by tanking or the "honest" way?


    For not understanding revenue sharing.
    For not being able to admit that your favorite team made some mistakes.
    For thinking that the Spurs will sign a Top 5 player in free agency some day.

    A whole bunch of you have been judged and found unworthy.

  21. #21
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    I think Spurs fans have to accept that the league has caught up with the 'money ball' methods that the Spurs used to have a monopoly with.

    The beautiful game was invented by the Spurs and now every team is passing and looking for the open 3. They are also doing it with a lot of money and a lot of talent (see: GSW).

    So just like the Oakland A's exploited an inefficiency in the process, now richer teams like the Red Sox borrowed that process.

    Same with the Spurs. Everyone has caught up!

  22. #22
    Believe. ernest787's Avatar
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    OMG (Me), I haven't seen that many people get schooled since I tried to teach you children how to make fire. Most of you stuck your fingers in your ears and wouldn't listen then, either.

    BG, your ass is already red from that spanking. You should probably quit before the embarrassment gets worse. And GSH if you're ever in the neighborhood of Olympus, drop in and we'll have a cup of wine.

    But Ernest deserves some special attention:


    You do understand that if/when the Spurs do that, they will be starting over with no stars? And even with cap space they won't be able to attract top tier players to come to San Antonio? So they will have to find one or two stars in the draft? And that means having a bad season or two, whether they do it by tanking or the "honest" way?


    For not understanding revenue sharing.
    For not being able to admit that your favorite team made some mistakes.
    For thinking that the Spurs will sign a Top 5 player in free agency some day.

    A whole bunch of you have been judged and found unworthy.
    You do understand that the OP mentions the Spurs are in "cap " and will be for years which is completely inaccurate.

  23. #23
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Tony Parker was the clear cut 3rd best player on the team in the 2017 playoffs. The Spurs didn't have to rebuild, they should've went all in next season. To be fair that was kind of difficult because

    1. Parker suffered a career ending injury

    2. LA wanted to be traded

    3. We don't know when the problems with Kawhi started

    I wanted them to let Mills and Pau go, keep Simmons and Dedmon and get a PG upgrade like Hill (demanded way too much money). Spurs could've also signed Tyreke Evans for 3.2 million and still add Gay. We've never seen the 3 headed monster (Kawhi/LA/Rudy) though and that ain't PATFO's fault.

    If you look at it this years team could've been

    Murray/White
    Green/Mills
    Kawhi/Belinelli
    Gay/Bertans
    LA/Poeltl

    that would've been the 2nd best roster of the NBA and most likely #1 defense. They got a lot of bad contracts but the plan was always to rebuild on the fly. They messed it up by trading Kawhi and Danny for the new Melo and Poeltl

  24. #24
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    NY Knicks can survive years and years of dismal performances. The Knicks aren't going anywhere.

    But what happens to the Spurs in today's age with other big markets waiting to pounce and Spurs fans stop attending because they don't want to spend 3 hours and $300 of their money to watch the Spurs tank? Or they stop watching the games on TV for the same reason?

  25. #25
    Believe. ernest787's Avatar
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    ^^^ yup. Last year watching the team and imagining Kawhi on the roster made me so happy. The team was long and athletic across the board. Would have been able to switch everything and been a defensive nightmare.

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