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  1. #601
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    No but he could hit the 3...there's a YouTube video showing he played d when it mattered n frustrated LeBron in playoffs

  2. #602
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    No but he could hit the 3...there's a YouTube video showing he played d when it mattered n frustrated LeBron in playoffs
    Playing D is not at all the same as being All Defense team multiple times. He was good against LeBron when we surprised MIA in 2013 by playing off him. When we tried that during the next season, he wa UNsurprised, and roasted Diaw.

  3. #603
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    You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter. Teams make trades like that repeatedly like Chicago giving up picks for Vuc or the Heat for Dragic. You take a step with one move then make others.

    The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality. That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.

    Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them. People don't realize how disposable or at least easily replaceable most of the roster is now that the Spurs are a mediocre team. For example, five years ago, a Vassell-level prospect would've been pure gold for the Spurs. Now they can expect to draft one every year. They can trade him and just draft a new mid-first three-and-D wing next year or at worst in two years. It's no big deal. White was a late-round guy who played like a mid-round guy. That was a huge boon back when all SA had was late-round picks. Now they have mid-round picks every year and can try to draft a guy there rather than clinging to their previous steal. Folks need to accept what being in this new era of the team means and stop thinking this is just a pit stop on the way to a quick and inevitable return to the playoff streak.
    I don't understand your logic, according to your reasoning Ben Simmons could also be found every other draft. He is a top 3 draft playing like a mid lottery. You don't pay $40m to say this guy is not the number 1 guy and is expected not to give the team a fighting chance to the championship. We are suppose to expect him to be a second fiddle and get another first fiddle? So how much do we pay him $60m? Paying $90m to $100m for 2 players? What is your vision of the team after the trade? So many ppl blasted DDR even he is okay during clutch, yet we should get someone who back down in crunch time to lead our team? It's not the skill that is of concern it's the mentality. That is often the difference between a winner and a almost winner. Ben Simmons definitely belongs in the latter category. I don't see his value to the team.

  4. #604
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    I think he finally redeemed himself with a le with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.
    One player does not make a motion offense, you need everyone to move and pass to the best option. If the team depends on a guy to create, the ball needs to go back to him or he needs to hog the ball until a good opportunity opens up.

  5. #605
    Shaken, not stirred jjspur's Avatar
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    I think he finally redeemed himself with a le with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.
    I agree Diaw was a really good player for the spurs and he fit in perfectly with the players we had at the time, but I recall we got him after Charlotte bought him out. he did not take up 30-35 % of the total team salary like Simmons would do. Simmons was surrounded by decent players in Philly yet he still managed to help the team fail in the playoffs. The guy is good just not 30-35 % of a teams salary cap good. Thats reserved for players like Durrant and Curry who have a history of excelling in the playoffs when it really really counts.

  6. #606
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    I don't understand your logic, according to your reasoning Ben Simmons could also be found every other draft.
    Seeing as I never said or suggested this, I can understand why you'd find that confusing. A team actually can't be expected to draft an All-Star every other draft. Now if you mean every other draft has an All-Star somewhere in it, that's actually a low estimate. It's more like every draft has an average of two. Regardless, the Spurs haven't drafted an All Star since Kawhi. Keeping their picks and assuming that's going to lead to a guy of Simmons' caliber is absurd.

  7. #607
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    Simmons and Diaw aren't remotely similar. Simmons is a down-hill play-maker. He has a good BBIQ, so that's Diaw-esque. But he wouldn't be a "move the ball guy". He'd be the "break down the defense" guy.

  8. #608
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    My Diaw-Simmons comparison is the extra passes, finding good for better shot. It would be infectious, reminiscent of the beautiful game, I hope.

  9. #609
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    My Diaw-Simmons comparison is the extra passes, finding good for better shot. It would be infectious, reminiscent of the beautiful game, I hope.
    I would argue that Diaw was able to break down defenses easier and get those passes because he was also a threat to score, both from the post and deep. He hit a lot of big threes for us.

    The book is out on Simmons now...give him space, take away his drive and passing lanes, and let him try to beat you. Chances are, he is just going to take himself out of the offense and go stand in the dunker's spot, at which point you've effectively turned the game into 5-on-4.

  10. #610
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    https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelph...own-doc-rivers

    Guys, this isn't just fall out from one bad series...This is a systemic issue.
    This is the crux of the issue here in that Simmons has been unwilling to take those open shots. It's all mental with him and unlike Giannis who takes the shots (even at a poor percentage) from the midrange and 3, at least he is willing to do it despite his limitations. If Simmons with better mechanics is not willing to take those open looks, it puts so much pressure on the offense that the other aspects of his game that are a positive become mute. Clearly, whatever his issues are go beyond mechanics and losing 2 or 3 assets and draft compensation seems too much of a risk on a player that no one will be able to confirm if he will ever overcome this issue.

    If an NBA team employs a player that’s unable to do something, that player doesn’t stay very long. Unable and unwilling are different situations, but the result is the same. The job doesn’t get done. The Sixers were blinded by Simmons’ potential for two seasons, and it could cost them dearly.

  11. #611
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    Seeing as I never said or suggested this, I can understand why you'd find that confusing. A team actually can't be expected to draft an All-Star every other draft. Now if you mean every other draft has an All-Star somewhere in it, that's actually a low estimate. It's more like every draft has an average of two. Regardless, the Spurs haven't drafted an All Star since Kawhi. Keeping their picks and assuming that's going to lead to a guy of Simmons' caliber is absurd.
    You said our guys are easily replaceable as they are mostly mid lottery level player, I am saying so is Ben Simmons so what is the obsessed over him? Just because he was a no. 1 pick once upon a time? You can argue how high level his passing or defence is, but if that guy does not have a mental for ude to win he is not a high level player period.

  12. #612
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    You said our guys are easily replaceable as they are mostly mid lottery level player, I am saying so is Ben Simmons so what is the obsessed over him? Just because he was a no. 1 pick once upon a time? You can argue how high level his passing or defence is, but if that guy does not have a mental for ude to win he is not a high level player period.
    You're all kinds of wrong to equate Simmons to guys like Walker and Vassell. Agree to disagree or whatever, but thinking an All-Defense guy is replaceable isn't a good platform for conversation

  13. #613
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    I would argue that Diaw was able to break down defenses easier and get those passes because he was also a threat to score, both from the post and deep. He hit a lot of big threes for us.

    The book is out on Simmons now...give him space, take away his drive and passing lanes, and let him try to beat you. Chances are, he is just going to take himself out of the offense and go stand in the dunker's spot, at which point you've effectively turned the game into 5-on-4.
    5 on 3 if Poeltl is also in the game, and you already have 1 player defensively sagging into the paint. you are nothing more than a perimeter team at this point and undoubtedly a poor one if the perimeter defenders know that they have lots of help behind them.

  14. #614
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    5 on 3 if Poeltl is also in the game, and you already have 1 player defensively sagging into the paint. you are nothing more than a perimeter team at this point and undoubtedly a poor one if the perimeter defenders know that they have lots of help behind them.
    There will be no beautiful game if you main creator is flawed like that.

  15. #615
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    Context: most of the contenders or pseudo ones lack the expendable assets and because of his lack of shooting, in some cases it'd take reorienting the roster, so that takes them out and leaves teams non playoff/glamor market teams like this, who either don't have or are unwilling to send them a centerpiece and need to determine how much draft capital they'd be willing to part with.

    Bowen was a specialist, who lacked the versatility of Simmons. Wall and Love lost value as aging players who'd suffered career altering injuries. As long as Simmons avoids the latter, he'll maintain solid resale value going forward. DeRozan, a less desirable player, just went for what ultimately might amount to two mid-late 1sts and a 2nd.

    The point is, they're not worth reading into. He's a complimentary star.




    I don't mean at the moment, I meant their goal is something like that. If they luck into something better, great. But they're not going to willingly go through what the 76ers did or the Thunder are in the midst of, to potentially attain it.
    The context is most teams dont value him. There are enough teams that are contenders that still have assets.

    Simmons does not have as much versatility as you want to imply. If he was versatile then he would not need to have teams completely remade around him. he would fit into the team because he is versatile. Your trying to use it as haveing many skills. Even that I would say is a stretch. his defense and passing are overated. Put him as the main guy and he crumbles. Even second tear he needs somone else that can pass (philly tried doing him as main facilitor and it failed).

  16. #616
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    My biggest issue with Simmons is that he hasn't proven that he's a winner. Kind of in the same vein of LMA and DDR, I don't think this team needs to mortgage the future for a "star" who's never led a team deep into the post season.

  17. #617
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    The context is most teams dont value him. There are enough teams that are contenders that still have assets.

    Simmons does not have as much versatility as you want to imply. If he was versatile then he would not need to have teams completely remade around him. he would fit into the team because he is versatile. Your trying to use it as haveing many skills. Even that I would say is a stretch. his defense and passing are overated. Put him as the main guy and he crumbles. Even second tear he needs somone else that can pass (philly tried doing him as main facilitor and it failed).
    Both untrue and I said expendable assets, as in draft capital and valuable youth not yet playing a significant role.

    I said defensively. He can guard 1-4 and even 5 in certain matchups; Bowen couldn't do that. I also said he's a complimentary star and his play making is more so transition oriented, as opposed to half court/pnr.

  18. #618
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    Simmons is not coming to play for The San Antonio Spurs... Get over it already. Geez

  19. #619
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Simmons is not coming to play for The San Antonio Spurs... Get over it already. Geez
    This deserves a Scola bump.

  20. #620
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    You're all kinds of wrong to equate Simmons to guys like Walker and Vassell. Agree to disagree or whatever, but thinking an All-Defense guy is replaceable isn't a good platform for conversation
    Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.

  21. #621
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    Both untrue and I said expendable assets, as in draft capital and valuable youth not yet playing a significant role.

    I said defensively. He can guard 1-4 and even 5 in certain matchups; Bowen couldn't do that. I also said he's a complimentary star and his play making is more so transition oriented, as opposed to half court/pnr.
    Actuaually both are true.

    Bowen DID guard 1-4. he would guard the other teams best wing usually but would even match up with dirk. I think he would guard some smaller 5s as well but remember 4s there would be 5s now.

  22. #622
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    My biggest issue with Simmons is that he hasn't proven that he's a winner. Kind of in the same vein of LMA and DDR, I don't think this team needs to mortgage the future for a "star" who's never led a team deep into the post season.
    This is exactly the reason the Spurs can’t give up any of their own 1st’s. They will need to tank to get someone who can actually lead this team forward. Simmons will never be able to do it. Interestingly enough almost every small market team is being lead by their own lottery pick.

  23. #623
    Veteran Maddog's Avatar
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    Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.
    And guess what?
    DJM is younger (albeit by a few months) has almost the same stats per 100 PPG, RBG and only slightly lower APG as Simmons. Yeah you can watch a game and see Simmons awesome potential, but the guy has regressed and the flaw in his game is huge. And as you point out DJM is a lot cheaper. I'm not saying they are equal, but Simmons is owed a huge amount and his lack of a shot (outside the paint including FTs is hard to get around.

  24. #624
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    Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.
    Um... So you're being disingenuous as right now. You're trying to cherry-pick defensive win-shares because that's the only stat that's even close. Simmons basically laps DJM in the other defensive stats. , if you control for minutes, Simmons' gap over Murray in DWS is just as big. What makes it even funnier is that you can see how by those same metrics, Simmons is a WAY better offensive player than Murray is, despite Ben not being able to shoot.

    Again, floating boats, found remotes and all that. But no, there's not an objective case for Simmons being down to Murray's or anyone else's on the team's level. White's the only one remotely close. You have to cherry-pick stats and take them out of context to even start coming to that idea.

  25. #625
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    Actuaually both are true.

    Bowen DID guard 1-4. he would guard the other teams best wing usually but would even match up with dirk. I think he would guard some smaller 5s as well but remember 4s there would be 5s now.
    You're conflating teams being unwilling and/or unable to pay a king's ransom with "the league not valuing him".

    I knew you'd bring that up, but Nowitzki was the exception. Bowen almost always defended 1-3 and wasn't as versatile as Simmons for obvious reasons.

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