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Could someone take Stats Guy to a live game once in a while?
Manuel Cabrera with a better defensive WAR than Mark Trout this year.
Good things steroids helped Cabrera become a better fielder than super Trout, because offensively, they're again posting similar offensive WAR stats.
Mike Trout had two RBI singles and has reached base safely in 36 straight games, the longest current streak in the majors.
these two posts were literally made in the same minute.
I'm actually not a stats geek. I don't really care for advanced stats. But I don't ignore them, and I have learned more about advanced stats over the years. But that wasn't even what my comment was about. I guess you didn't understand the sarcasm and irony of mentioning WAR as it references last year's Cabrera/Trout debate and how advanced stats guys were using WAR and defensive metrics to argue Trout was the more valuable player. This season, at least up to now, Trout doesn't have that huge edge in WAR and his defensive metrics are worse than Cabrera's, and Cabrera's standard batting stats are historic and on pace to be even better than last season. So basically, there is no argument for Trout being the better player except for the worthless screams that "Trout is faster." That's really all they have based on this season. And that's not to say Trout isn't having a great year or isn't a great baseball player. He simply is just not as good as Cabrera.
But since you wanted to label me a stats guy, I will give you a few hitting stats for the two players. RISPw2outs, runners in scoring position with 2 outs, almost universally accepted as one of the main clutch hitting stats used to determine clutch hitting. High Leverage hitting stats, advanced stats geeks break down each AB and determine how important and pivotal an AB is in terms of swinging and determining the outcome of the game. High leverage situations can help show how good a hitter can be in the most important hitting situations. And Margin>4 runs, basically hitting stats when the game is a blowout either way, 5 run lead or 5 run deficit. In many of those situations, opposing pitchers are usually just trying to get through innings, usually are no longer in high pressure situations throwing high stress pitches. If it's still the starting pitcher who is losing the blowout, he's probably beat up. If it's a reliever, he's probably throwing a lot of fastballs just trying to get quick outs.
Mike Trout
RISP2/o: .291/.426/.491/.917
High Leverage: .272/.385/.346/.730
Margin>4: .469/.541/.875/1.416
Miguel Cabrera
RISP2/o: .447/.594/.957/1.551
High Leverage: .351/.480/.766/.1.246
Margine>4: .250/.303/.400/.703
So what you see there is that Miggy is one of the greatest hitters ever, but even better in clutch situations, in high pressure ABs. And you also see that Mike Trout morphs into Babe Ruth when the game is a blowout either way and shrinks into Mark Kotsay in important and clutch situations. The difference between Miggy and Trout, as both are having great, great seasons, is that Miggy hits 2 HRs in consecutive ABs against Mariano Rivera in save situations at Yankees stadium, and Mike Trout hits a 3 run homer late in a game with his team trailing 14-4 against a Triple-A call-up.
JamStone ting all over the thread
Cabrera ting all over Trout, AGAIN.JamStone ting all over the thread
I think Mark Trout is fantastic. And I think Mick Trout is phenomenal. I'll bet MLB is testing Cabrera every other day. As an Hispanic player, he's got a bullseye on his back. Almost every player who got in trouble from the Miami clinic was Hispanic. So obviously, if Cabrera is having two straight monster seasons, the Average Joe Fan thinks he's juicing. It's obnoxious. As JamStone pointed out, Cabrera has been a beast since he came in the league. His numbers are quite similar to Pujols' numbers. He's simply a great player.
The thing that struck me about Cabrera the most was not watching him hit, a fantastic experience to be sure. It was the first time I watched him go through the dugout dapping guys after a HR. He looked like a high school kid going through a little league dugout. He's a giant, with Rod Carew's swing. If he were raised in the US, he probably would have played football, and been a DT or DE.
Stats nuke.
Yeah Miggy is sooooo clutch
So clutch he got his ass swept in the World Series and struck out looking on the final at bat. Fastball right down them middle.
2003 Marlins 6 24 .167
2012 Tigers 4 13 .231
pretty sure 4/13 doesn't amount to .231
could be wrong tho
I think it's fair to criticize Miggy's performance in last year's World Series. He wasn't good enough. Then again, none of the Tigers hitters were. I don't know about criticizing his 2003 World Series performance as a 20 year old rookie, but it is what it is. 4-7 games isn't always going to accurately reflect how good or bad a hitter is. But Miggy certainly could help his legacy by having a great World Series performance if the Tigers are fortunate enough to get back there this year or in the future.Yeah Miggy is sooooo clutch
So clutch he got his ass swept in the World Series and struck out looking on the final at bat. Fastball right down them middle.
2003 Marlins 6 24 .167
2012 Tigers 4 13 .231
His playoff numbers, as a bigger sample, are better even with those World Series numbers. .276 BA, which isn't all that great, but better than .167 or .231. OPS of .911, which gets closer to what he is as a hitter. And 10 HR with 30 RBI in 41 games. Translate that to a 162 game season, his overall playoff numbers would be on pace for a 39 HR and 118 RBI season. So while his World Series numbers are not good, his overall post season performances are solid, especially considering how the World Series stats bring them down.
Those numbers were a fail attempt at editing a cluster of stats. It was actually 4/24 and 3/14 which would justify the averages.
Yr Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR GS RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
2003 Marlins 6 24 1 4 0 0 1 0 3 1 0 7 0 0 0 1 .167 .200 .292
2012 Tigers 4 13 1 3 0 0 1 0 3 3 0 4 0 0 0 0 .231 .375 .462
Career G AB R H 2B 3B HR GS RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
2 Years 10 37 2 7 0 0 2 0 6 4 0 11 0 0 0 1 .189 .268 .351
My point was Cabrera hasn't proved anything yet, just like Trout. His stats are amazing, and he could be the greatest hitter of all time. Until he wins a World Series though, he remains unclutch imo.
All right you got me there, but that was his rookie season and he didn't get called up until late June. He had some good AB's in the playoffs including a homerun off a juicing Roger Clemens. Add to that - it was 10 years ago. Can he carry the Tigers to a World Series le?
I didn't edit any stats. I even acknowledged that Miggy has not been great in the World Series and it would help his legacy if he did have a great World Series performance. I was just giving a broader picture of what type of hitter he has been in the playoffs. Plus a 10 game stretch, no matter if it's in the World Series or 3 regular season series in late June, isn't really a great sample size to make absolute opinions about a hitter.
Put it to you this way, if Miggy hasn't proven anything and is unclutch because of his poor World Series performances despite everything else he has done in his career, than guys like Willie Mays and Ted Williams didn't prove anything and were unclutch too because of their respective poor World Series performances. Would you really like to spark an argument over why Willie Mays and Ted Williams didn't prove anything in their careers and were unclutch?
Willie Mays (4 World Series, 20 games)
.239/.308/.282/589
0 HRs, 6 RBIs
Ted Williams (1 World Series, 7 games)
.200/.333/.200/.533
0 HR, 1 RBI
Yeah you're not a stats geek. Cabrera is a better fielder then Trout.
I was talking about my edit in post #37. Ted Williams who is/was arguably the greatest hitter of all time, was bashed for not coming through when it really mattered most, just like Stan Musial & Mike Schmidt. Want to see the top 40 most clutch hitters in baseball for last year? The results may surprise you...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...e.cgi?id=4f7Hg
Rk ▴ Player Clutch Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Pos
1 Jimmy Rollins 2.3 2012 33 PHI NL 156 699 632 102 158 33 5 23 68 62 2 96 0 2 3 9 30 5 .250 .316 .427 .743 *6
2 Kyle Seager 2.1 2012 24 SEA AL 155 651 594 62 154 35 1 20 86 46 1 110 5 2 4 9 13 5 .259 .316 .423 .738 *54/D
3 Jose Reyes 1.7 2012 29 MIA NL 160 716 642 86 184 37 12 11 57 63 9 56 0 5 6 10 40 11 .287 .347 .433 .780 *6
4 Clint Barmes 1.6 2012 33 PIT NL 144 493 455 34 104 16 1 8 45 20 3 106 8 8 2 9 0 2 .229 .272 .321 .593 *6/3
5 Brian Bogusevic 1.6 2012 28 HOU NL 146 404 355 39 72 9 2 7 28 41 1 96 7 0 1 6 15 4 .203 .297 .299 .596 *98/17
6 Jason Kipnis 1.5 2012 25 CLE AL 152 672 591 86 152 22 4 14 76 67 2 109 5 3 6 12 31 7 .257 .335 .379 .714 *4/D
7 Hunter Pence 1.5 2012 29 TOT NL 160 688 617 87 156 26 4 24 104 56 2 145 7 1 7 14 5 2 .253 .319 .425 .743 *9
8 Joey Votto 1.5 2012 28 CIN NL 111 475 374 59 126 44 0 14 56 94 18 85 5 0 2 8 5 3 .337 .474 .567 1.041 *3
9 Dan Uggla 1.4 2012 32 ATL NL 154 630 523 86 115 29 0 19 78 94 5 168 10 0 3 8 4 3 .220 .348 .384 .732 *4
10 Mike Morse 1.4 2012 30 WSN NL 102 430 406 53 118 17 1 18 62 16 0 97 4 0 4 14 0 1 .291 .321 .470 .791 *79/D3
11 Torii Hunter 1.4 2012 36 LAA AL 140 584 534 81 167 24 1 16 92 38 1 133 8 1 3 15 9 1 .313 .365 .451 .817 *9/D
12 Pedro Ciriaco 1.3 2012 26 BOS AL 76 272 259 33 76 15 2 2 19 8 2 47 0 5 0 2 16 3 .293 .315 .390 .705 546D/879
13 Adrian Gonzalez 1.3 2012 30 TOT ML 159 684 629 75 188 47 1 18 108 42 5 110 5 0 8 10 2 0 .299 .344 .463 .806 *39/D
14 Ryan Howard 1.3 2012 32 PHI NL 71 292 260 28 57 11 0 14 56 25 7 99 4 0 3 8 0 0 .219 .295 .423 .718 *3
15 Joe Mauer 1.2 2012 29 MIN AL 147 641 545 81 174 31 4 10 85 90 10 88 2 1 3 23 8 4 .319 .416 .446 .861 *2D3
16 Corey Hart 1.2 2012 30 MIL NL 149 622 562 91 152 35 4 30 83 44 5 151 11 2 3 13 5 0 .270 .334 .507 .841 *39
17 Yasmani Grandal 1.2 2012 23 SDP NL 60 226 192 28 57 7 1 8 36 31 1 39 1 0 2 8 0 0 .297 .394 .469 .863 *2
18 Brandon Belt 1.2 2012 24 SFG NL 145 472 411 47 113 27 6 7 56 54 5 106 3 0 4 2 12 2 .275 .360 .421 .781 *3/7
19 Josh Willingham 1.2 2012 33 MIN AL 145 615 519 85 135 30 1 35 110 76 4 141 14 0 6 15 3 2 .260 .366 .524 .890 *7D
20 Angel Pagan 1.1 2012 30 SFG NL 154 659 605 95 174 38 15 8 56 48 5 97 0 2 4 6 29 7 .288 .338 .440 .778 *8/D
21 Ryan Ludwick 1.1 2012 33 CIN NL 125 472 422 53 116 28 1 26 80 42 3 97 5 1 2 9 0 1 .275 .346 .531 .877 *7/D
22 Erick Aybar 1.1 2012 28 LAA AL 141 554 517 67 150 31 5 8 45 22 1 61 5 7 2 11 20 4 .290 .324 .416 .740 *6
23 Ian Desmond 1.1 2012 26 WSN NL 130 547 513 72 150 33 2 25 73 30 1 113 3 0 1 17 21 6 .292 .335 .511 .845 *6
24 Raul Ibanez 1.1 2012 40 NYY AL 130 425 384 50 92 19 3 19 62 35 5 67 4 0 2 14 3 0 .240 .308 .453 .761 *7D9
25 Yoenis Cespedes 1.1 2012 26 OAK AL 129 540 487 70 142 25 5 23 82 43 5 102 7 0 3 9 16 4 .292 .356 .505 .861 78D
26 Alberto Callaspo 1.1 2012 29 LAA AL 138 520 457 55 115 20 0 10 53 56 1 59 0 3 4 6 4 3 .252 .331 .361 .692 *5
27 Hector Sanchez 1.0 2012 22 SFG NL 74 227 218 22 61 15 0 3 34 5 0 52 1 0 3 8 0 0 .280 .295 .390 .685 *2/D
28 Asdrubal Cabrera 1.0 2012 26 CLE AL 143 616 555 70 150 35 1 16 68 52 3 99 6 1 2 18 9 4 .270 .338 .423 .762 *6/D
29 Darwin Barney 1.0 2012 26 CHC NL 156 588 548 73 139 26 4 7 44 33 1 58 3 3 1 11 6 1 .254 .299 .354 .653 *4/6
30 Brandon Phillips 1.0 2012 31 CIN NL 147 623 580 86 163 30 1 18 77 28 2 79 8 3 4 19 15 2 .281 .321 .429 .750 *4
31 Jason Donald 1.0 2012 27 CLE AL 43 135 124 18 25 2 1 2 11 5 0 40 3 1 2 0 4 0 .202 .246 .282 .529 56/47D8
32 Carlos Pena 1.0 2012 34 TBR AL 160 600 497 72 98 17 2 19 61 87 2 182 13 0 3 10 2 3 .197 .330 .354 .684 *3/D
33 Ryan Hanigan 1.0 2012 31 CIN NL 112 371 317 25 87 14 0 2 24 44 13 37 3 4 3 6 0 0 .274 .365 .338 .703 *2
34 Kirk Nieuwenhuis 1.0 2012 24 NYM NL 91 314 282 40 71 12 1 7 28 25 0 98 2 3 2 2 4 4 .252 .315 .376 .691 *879
35 Yadier Molina 1.0 2012 29 STL NL 138 563 505 65 159 28 0 22 76 45 4 55 5 3 5 10 12 3 .315 .373 .501 .874 *2/3
36 John McDonald 1.0 2012 37 ARI NL 70 213 197 16 49 9 0 6 22 12 5 33 1 2 0 3 0 1 .249 .295 .386 .681 *6/54
37 John Mayberry 1.0 2012 28 PHI NL 149 479 441 53 108 24 0 14 46 34 2 111 2 0 2 17 1 0 .245 .301 .395 .695 783/9D
38 John Jaso 1.0 2012 28 SEA AL 108 361 294 41 81 19 2 10 50 56 1 51 5 1 5 6 5 0 .276 .394 .456 .850 D2
39 Adam Jones 1.0 2012 26 BAL AL 162 697 648 103 186 39 3 32 82 34 0 126 13 0 2 15 16 7 .287 .334 .505 .839 *8/D
40 Garrett Jones 1.0 2012 31 PIT NL 145 515 475 68 130 28 3 27 86 33 2 103 0 0 7 3 2 0 .274 .317 .516 .832 39/D
Now the top 25 Hall of Famers (legends Ted Williams and Willie Mays included)
Rk Player Clutch From To Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Nellie Fox 12.9 1950 1965 22-37 2269 10037 8969 1235 2598 349 110 35 769 685 24 207 136 197 48 165 73 78 .290 .348 .365 .712 *4/53 CHW-HOU
2 Tony Gwynn 9.9 1982 2001 22-41 2440 10232 9288 1383 3141 543 85 135 1138 790 203 434 24 45 85 259 319 125 .338 .388 .459 .847 *98/7D SDP
3 Billy Williams 7.4 1959 1976 21-38 2488 10519 9350 1410 2711 434 88 426 1475 1045 182 1046 43 8 73 200 90 49 .290 .361 .492 .853 *79D/38 CHC-OAK
4 Eddie Murray 6.5 1977 1997 21-41 3026 12817 11336 1627 3255 560 35 504 1917 1333 222 1516 18 2 128 315 110 43 .287 .359 .476 .836 *3D/57 BAL-LAD-NYM-CLE-TOT
5 Yogi Berra 6.3 1950 1965 25-40 1789 7090 6356 1002 1802 261 34 311 1183 643 49 352 45 7 44 124 25 21 .284 .351 .482 .833 *27/935 NYY-NYM
6 Roberto Clemente 6.2 1955 1972 20-37 2433 10211 9454 1416 3000 440 166 240 1305 621 167 1230 35 36 66 275 83 46 .317 .359 .475 .834 *9/8745 PIT
7 George Brett 6.1 1973 1993 20-40 2707 11625 10349 1583 3154 665 137 317 1596 1096 229 908 33 26 120 235 201 97 .305 .369 .487 .857 *5D3/796 KCR
8 Willie McCovey 5.6 1959 1980 21-42 2588 9692 8197 1229 2211 353 46 521 1555 1345 260 1550 69 5 70 176 26 22 .270 .374 .515 .889 *37/9D SFG-SDP-TOT
9 Rod Carew 5.0 1967 1985 21-39 2469 10550 9315 1424 3053 445 112 92 1015 1018 144 1028 25 128 64 216 353 187 .328 .393 .429 .822 34/D657 MIN-CAL
10 Ozzie Smith 4.9 1978 1996 23-41 2573 10778 9396 1257 2460 402 69 28 793 1072 79 589 33 214 63 167 580 148 .262 .337 .328 .666 *6 SDP-STL
11 Tony Perez 4.7 1964 1986 22-44 2777 10861 9778 1272 2732 505 79 379 1652 925 150 1867 43 9 106 268 49 33 .279 .341 .463 .804 *35/D4 CIN-MON-BOS-PHI
12 Rickey Henderson 4.5 1979 2003 20-44 3081 13346 10961 2295 3055 510 66 297 1115 2190 61 1694 98 30 67 172 1406 335 .279 .401 .419 .820 *78D/9 OAK-NYY-TOT-NYM-SDP-BOS-LAD
13 Kirby Puckett 3.6 1984 1995 24-35 1783 7831 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 450 85 965 56 23 58 188 134 76 .318 .360 .477 .837 *89/D7456 MIN
14 Pee Wee Reese 3.4 1950 1958 31-39 1179 5149 4386 729 1189 177 45 74 477 629 3 477 15 100 19 123 124 45 .271 .363 .383 .746 *65 BRO-LAD
15 Enos Slaughter 3.3 1950 1959 34-43 1114 3654 3138 443 891 141 49 54 511 463 11 220 14 29 10 67 27 15 .284 .377 .412 .789 *97/8 STL-TOT-NYY
16 Paul Molitor 2.9 1978 1998 21-41 2683 12167 10835 1782 3319 605 114 234 1307 1094 100 1244 47 75 109 209 504 131 .306 .369 .448 .817 D543/6879 MIL-TOR-MIN
17 Roy Campanella 1.4 1950 1957 28-35 1002 3988 3490 530 964 145 13 211 729 430 30 420 26 24 18 129 19 15 .276 .358 .507 .865 *2 BRO
18 Bill Mazeroski 1.0 1956 1972 19-35 2163 8379 7755 769 2016 294 62 138 853 447 110 706 20 87 70 194 27 23 .260 .299 .367 .667 *4/5 PIT
19 Luis Aparicio 0.9 1956 1973 22-39 2601 11230 10230 1335 2677 394 92 83 791 736 22 742 27 161 76 184 506 136 .262 .311 .343 .653 *6 CHW-BAL-BOS
20 Lou Boudreau 0.8 1950 1952 32-34 167 611 535 61 143 31 3 6 78 61 17 7 8 19 2 2 .267 .350 .370 .720 *6/534 CLE-BOS
21 Joe DiMaggio 0.7 1950 1951 35-36 255 1088 940 186 267 55 14 44 193 141 69 7 0 30 0 0 .284 .381 .513 .894 *8/3 NYY
22 Cal Ripken 0.4 1981 2001 20-40 3001 12883 11551 1647 3184 603 44 431 1695 1129 107 1305 66 10 127 350 36 39 .276 .340 .447 .788 *65/D BAL
23 Joe Morgan 0.1 1963 1984 19-40 2649 11329 9277 1650 2517 449 96 268 1133 1865 76 1015 40 51 96 105 689 162 .271 .392 .427 .819 *4/7D58 HOU-CIN-SFG-PHI-OAK
24 Bobby Doerr 0.1 1950 1951 32-33 255 1126 988 163 288 50 13 40 193 124 75 2 12 31 5 5 .291 .372 .490 .862 *4 BOS
25 Johnny Mize -0.0 1950 1953 37-40 362 946 847 95 224 38 1 43 177 88 80 10 0 18 1 1 .264 .341 .464 .805 *3 NYY
Willie Mays and Ted Williams were on this list at #36 and #48 respectively. Those 2 (obviously) proved a lot during their careers, but they were unable to produce when it mattered most. On the biggest stage in baseball. Unclutch, just like Miggy.
So is it still your assertion that guys like Willie Mays and Ted Williams, like Cabrera, didn't prove anything? That's what it sounds like to me.
If that's what you believe, then we can just leave it at that. I won't even bother arguing and just let it be an agree to disagree end of the discussion.
Trout is a good outfielder. But he's not as great as what some people talk him to be. And he's not having a great defensive season.
Miggy walk off home run. 13 home runs this year in 9th or later that tied or took the lead. ya. not clutch at all. Please save this thread. Guaranteed he dominates the playoffs this year.
This man is a ing legend
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